slightly irritated renegades

[Shas'o R'Vre]

On a slight note of complete failure of codex story material.. has anyone read the SM codex through yet?? Apparently the Iron Hands are no longer a founding chapter... WTH???

Source? I can't see this.

[Lexington]

I seem to spend an inordinate amount of time around here defending certain aspects of the current Chaos book, but I actually agree with most of this - the current Chaos Codex is, for the most part, a hellish misfire. The background is trite and idiotic, the art somehow manages to be worse than normal, despite the fact that GW hasn't put out a visually interesting Codex for almost a decade now, and the list entries drunkenly swerve between the ludicrously overpowered and the haplessly moot. It introduced the first of 40K's new "super-rules" trend with the flatly overpowered Lash of Submission, and is filled with bizarre inconsistencies that more or less confirm the rumor that this book was haphazardly pushed forward in the schedule due to delays in the Ork model line. I'd say it's the worst single thing GW's ever published, but it can't even come out on top of that contest, as Matt Ward's grubby child-hands somehow never got to put their signature filth upon it.

 

At the same time, despite all that, I can't fault the Codex conceptually - that 3.5 book really was a mess of entries with three-or-four-tier upgrade paths, and the small novella of Daemonic Gifts was always a bit of a headache (especially given their fluctuations in points efficiency). Despite the whines and pleas of the community, Legion rules really never made any damn sense in the first place, and are best left out of the game. There's simply no reason for the bizarre trade-offs they required (apparently, the Iron Warriors just couldn't bring Basalisks or Vindicators to the field if so much as a single Berzerker or Plague Marine came along with; what, was there a falling out in their social circle or something? Did the Cult Legions steal Perturabo's girl?), and their overall presence contributed to the ugly 3rd/4th edition trend of defining factions by an in-game gimmick rather than by personality and history, an effect that the background's still recovering from. You can still make all-Cult armies, and my Word Bearers, oddly enough, continue to be red, angry and ready to preach Lorgar's word to the faithless. That Alpha Legion players actually have to be clever themselves, rather than relying on an in-game special rule, hardly strikes me as a tragedy. One can still make perfectly valid Legion lists; it's just that the responsibility for that has been left to a player base that's become used to having their factions defined for them.

 

The chaos gods have appeared to put aside their millenia of rivallry...

See, this? This is what I'm talking about. There's an expectation on the part of the community - engineered by 3rd/4th edition army lists - that anything in the background must be set, ironclad, into the its tabletop representation, or simply does not exist. Of course Khorne and Slaanesh are still enemies, their daemons and mortal servants fighting vicious, bloody wars within the Daemon Worlds of the Eye while their masters laugh and continue their insane, alien schemes. None of that's changed. However, that is not always true! Mortal followers of opposed Gods have always fought together against the Imperium. More, a Chaos Space Marine is not, and never has solely been an exemplar of their immortal master's will; the entire point of the 2nd Edition Codex, which is still the defining document behind the current structure of the Traitor Legions, was that the Chaos Space Marines had their own agendas. Their hatred of the Imperium burns as brightly in their hearts as the dedication to their chosen patron. So you'll find them occasionally mixed together, part of the same band without immediately killing each other. There'll be plenty of time for that after the Emperor is crushed and his Imperium brought to ruin.

 

The player's reaction to this? "Chaos is all happy and love each other now," because the army list itself doesn't prevent the mixing of Cults. The ability to discern for one's self what should and should not be in an army isn't something the players trust themselves or their opponents to do. There's no engagement with the game above putting models on the table and following the rules, and that's a pity; if 5th Edition wasn't so bent towards making sure two complete strangers could put models on table and play immediately, there might have been a better result, but it's where we are, and that's not great. A player who has to work with their opponent in order to make an enjoyable, narrative play experience is that much more likely to construct their army in a similar way because it makes for a better game.

[Dan The Deamon]

Lexington's rubber stamp of righteousness strikes again. Too many awesome points to follow up on. I'm again stunned into silence.

[Argon]

I'm pretty sure Lexington just ended this thread.

 

 

 

On a slight note of complete failure of codex story material.. has anyone read the SM codex through yet?? Apparently the Iron Hands are no longer a founding chapter... WTH???

Source? I can't see this.

 

Seconded. They certainly got shafted, but I don't see anything that would indicate that.

 

[citation needed].

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I'm pretty sure Lexington just ended this thread.

Lexington makes a LOT of good points. I say we end this topic now, and like it or lump it with our Codex for our time being until the new one gets done.

 

Mods, can we get an Exterminatius on this topic?

[Brother Delias]

I'm pretty sure Lexington just ended this thread.

 

 

 

On a slight note of complete failure of codex story material.. has anyone read the SM codex through yet?? Apparently the Iron Hands are no longer a founding chapter... WTH???

Source? I can't see this.

 

Seconded. They certainly got shafted, but I don't see anything that would indicate that.

 

[citation needed].

 

It's unofficial(like most of everything published recently) But if you look through the diffrent chapter insignias, under the insignia of the Iron Hands, unlike any of the other founding chapters, it is simply written as a regular chapter...

 

I still have much love for my cyborg warriors... but I cannot in good concious play them... the butchering of the fluff has angered me too greatly... At least with my chaos army, my storyline is defined by me and only me... with only loose ties to the major legions.

 

My army stories are paragraphs long hehe... once the current story is done I'll post.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

once the current story is done I'll post.

Look forward to it!

[caboosebe]

Mods, can we get an Exterminatius on this topic?

 

I vote for Cyclonic Torpedoes this time, the Life Eater virus is getting old :unsure:

[Brother Hadafix]

Mortal followers of opposed Gods have always fought together against the Imperium. More, a Chaos Space Marine is not, and never has solely been an exemplar of their immortal master's will; the entire point of the 2nd Edition Codex, which is still the defining document behind the current structure of the Traitor Legions, was that the Chaos Space Marines had their own agendas. Their hatred of the Imperium burns as brightly in their hearts as the dedication to their chosen patron. So you'll find them occasionally mixed together, part of the same band without immediately killing each other. There'll be plenty of time for that after the Emperor is crushed and his Imperium brought to ruin.

 

That still doesnt explain why, after the 'Betrayer' incident, that you would get Kharne leading an Emperors Children and World Eaters warband. At least the animosity made sense. This is also where having a separate "Legions" list or codex makes sense. Not all Marines that worship Slaanesh are EC, but all EC do worship Slannesh.

[Lexington]

That still doesnt explain why, after the 'Betrayer' incident, that you would get Kharne leading an Emperors Children and World Eaters warband. At least the animosity made sense.

Well, I'd question the idea that Khârn ever leads anything, so much as simply going forth and daring others to follow, but I get your idea. At the end of the day, this is one of those things that can be explained in all sorts of ways (for example, it could be a small force that's part of a larger Black Crusade), but it's also why I advocate so hard for players to really try and construct a game experience that's fun and interesting, both narratively and tactically, rather than simply trying to game a rules system that, at this point, doesn't even bother to try and work coherently. It's better for everyone involved.

 

This is also where having a separate "Legions" list or codex makes sense. Not all Marines that worship Slaanesh are EC, but all EC do worship Slannesh.

I don't see why, overall. If you want Emperor's Children or non-EC Noise Marines, the entry is right there in the Codex. If you want Slaanesh-dedicated Marines who don't do the Noise Marine thing, well, you've got the Icon available (ah, Icons - yet another another admirable idea ruined by half-baked implementation). I suppose one could wish for a more complex and wide-ranging system of diety-specific mutations, wargear and the like, rather than a single Cult - something I think would be kind of interesting! - but it's not something that's been part of the army lists since the Realms of Chaos days.

[Brother Delias]

Slannesh's Dillemma...

 

Slannesh: "WORSHIP ME!"

 

Noise Marine: "What?? Can't hear you!"

 

Slannesh: "WORSHIP ME!!"

 

Noise Marine: "Nope sorry, did you say live free?"

 

Slannesh: "WORSHIP ME!!!!"

 

Noise Marine: "Feed me? Um... I'm going to go kill things now, have a good day."

 

Slannesh: "Damned Emperors children, why do I have to be stuck with the deaf guys?"

[Black Hand]

Well, I'd question the idea that Khârn ever leads anything, so much as simply going forth and daring others to follow

 

It's pretty much how Khârn rolls. In that sense, it's easy to explain why he might be associated with a mixed warband; he's just off to kick ass and chew bubblegum (and he's all outta gum) whereas the other marines are just standing back and letting him do his thing, or maybe following him around (in the case of the Khornate marines) to try and earn the favour of the Blood God.

[Brother Hadafix]

If you want Slaanesh-dedicated Marines who don't do the Noise Marine thing, well, you've got the Icon available (ah, Icons - yet another another admirable idea ruined by half-baked implementation).

As I was saying...

 

I cant add that much as I read the 4.0 codex over a few times, despaired, then started BT. Its been a long time since I last picked through its pages.

[Brother Delias]

On the note of Khârn... he doesnt particularly lead anything... so much as kills anything in his path... including his own... You dont earn the title Betrayer for nothing... anyone following him is doing so at their own peril...

 

or in so many words... If I was an EC... and see Khârn coming my way... I would scream out "Blood for the Blood god!" and take out my rather unused dagger... and follow him into battle... self preservation is key to any CSM

[caboosebe]

Khârn is in the HQ section, but that doesn't mean he is the leader type of person. He's just a very powerfull, insane, bloodthristy, awesome, Special character. Compare him with a Bloodthirster. Greater Daemon of Khorne, but they fight for their own (and God) and don't direct their followers into battle with tactics. Just: 'Go, and kill'.

Same could be said about Khârn. As long as there are enemies on the battlefield, he will not turn on the Slaanesh worshippers. Nor does he tell them what to do, as long as they don't stand between him and his next victim, they will not be harmed (yet).

 

On the other hand, the chances that during an Emperor's children war they will ask help from Khârn is pretty low to non existing.

As Lexington mentioned, and I do like the way he thinks and explains, they will mostly be seen 'working together' during a Black Crusade.

Now, most people have this narrow view of Chaos, and are like 'no, my legion is the best', and therefor do not open themselfs for other ways.

The Dark Angels and Space Wolves have issues aswell, but nobody seems to care if they work together.

On the table: Imperial guard fights Space Marine - Sisters of Battle fight against Grey Knights - Ultramarine fights against Ultramarine. Yet those are all accepted facts. If the fluff should give restrictions on our codex, they they should do so in general too, and no Loyalist force may fight a Loyalist force or they should use the Chaos Codex.

 

An other option is: be creative. There have been multiple post about changing the names in a codex at using count as.

example: Khorne plague marines. explain: Khorne berzerkers that have fought the fight of their lives and lost their limbs etc. All their limbs have been replaced by bionics wich makes them rather slow, but increases their toughness. And because they worship khorne they don't care, as long as they can still fight.

On the table: Khorne colored, bionic modeled units that have the stats and rules of a plague marine.

 

Yet few people choose to be a little bit creative on their own and make the best out of what they got and stay set in their single minded track.

 

Do note that I'm talking here about fluff reasons and not about point cost and/or abilities

 

And as final note: Evrywhere they say if the Chaos Legions would unite, it would be the end of the Imperium. Why not start now?

[Brother Delias]

because that would mean that we would progress into the 42nd millineum... and that is apparently fluff heresy... for shame...

 

Then again, we're chaos... so who cares?

[caboosebe]

because that would mean that we would progress into the 42nd millineum... and that is apparently fluff heresy... for shame...

 

Then again, we're chaos... so who cares?

 

My point was more: be creative, even if you don't want to open up for united legions, you can still be creative enough to change things to make it more fluffy for your own legion. :) seems that didn't stand out :)

[Black Hand]

An other option is: be creative. There have been multiple post about changing the names in a codex at using count as.

example: Khorne plague marines. explain: Khorne berzerkers that have fought the fight of their lives and lost their limbs etc. All their limbs have been replaced by bionics wich makes them rather slow, but increases their toughness. And because they worship khorne they don't care, as long as they can still fight.

On the table: Khorne colored, bionic modeled units that have the stats and rules of a plague marine.

 

That.... is actually very clever indeed. Seriously.

I guess you could do it with any unit, too, as long as you used some imagination as to how this counts-as unit works with your army fluff i.e. Slaaneshi Berserkers are simply veteran Emperor's Children whose over-use of combat drugs have sent them into a state of frenzy (representing their stats and Furious Assault), and are addicted to the screams of the dying due to their modified sensory centres, so get into CC to better hear that.

 

But yes, I suppose if you took that approach with an army, there would be no real limit as to what you could take whilst keeping it fluffy, provided any opponents were clear on what each unit was.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

An other option is: be creative. There have been multiple post about changing the names in a codex at using count as.

example: Khorne plague marines. explain: Khorne berzerkers that have fought the fight of their lives and lost their limbs etc. All their limbs have been replaced by bionics wich makes them rather slow, but increases their toughness. And because they worship khorne they don't care, as long as they can still fight.

On the table: Khorne colored, bionic modeled units that have the stats and rules of a plague marine.

In a similar fashion to my Iron Warriors Thousand Sons. Iron Warriors servitors armed with archaic bolters, lead by a Chaos Techmarine.

 

Or my Iron Warriors Plague Marines, Bionic Veterans who are immune to pain

 

Or my Iron Warriors Noise Marines, Gun-obsessed Iron Warriors with the best guns they can find, who are so "in the zone" they strike faster than any others.

 

Or my Iron Warriors Berzerkers... Well, not so true. They are just hired muscle.

 

I imagine the conversation went somewhat like this:

 

Iron Warrior: Hey, you there, Mister Berzerker! Do YOU want a chance to gain glory and skulls for Khorne?

 

Bezerker: Uuh, yeah, I suppose I do...

 

IW: Well then Sir, today is your lucky day! We just happened to have made a great big hole in the walls of this Imperial Bastion! Just step inside, and all the skulls you can take are yours!

 

B: Oh great! *charges in*

 

IW: Huh, stupid Berzerker. We can now take the fortress without a single Iron Warrior Casualty!

[caboosebe]

In 'Storm of Iron' there is mention of Khorne worshipping Iron Warriors, though they are not mentioned as 'Berzerkers'. Still, Iron Warriors do have connections with the Dark Mechanicus, so having iron warriors implanted with rage enhancers by Dark Mechanicus isn't so far fetched.

 

If you truelly want a good view on it, Mini Wargaming forum has a post about using the rules without the models. You can get your inspiration there, or even use their ideas. In the post you can find Legion specific ideas, or God specific ideas, so you don't even need to have a Legion if you want to use some models. You may have to become creative on the modeling part though.

here is the link:

You may have to register a free account to it to view it, but I'm not sure about it.

Mini Wargaming Using the Rules without the Models

 

Again, you can create your own stories around it, wich makes it more enjoyable to create your army. Just don't go create extras, like khorne berzerker plague marines that have the mark of nurgle extra toughness, and an extra attack from being khorne. Just use plague marine stats, and don't mention that they worship Nurgle. They are just bionic enhanced Khorne Berzerkers that are slow because of it, but have extra durability (for example).

[Brother Hadafix]

The thing is with all this counts as talk, is that a lot of things can be done better using "counts as" from the new SM codices. If having a dude with a power fist fist the fluff for 'counts as' Servo arm, theres a dude in the C:UM that has 2! Or better still the MoF, as this dude can even fortify cover.

 

or in so many words... If I was an EC... and see Khârn coming my way... I would scream out "Blood for the Blood god!" and take out my rather unused dagger... and follow him into battle

I couldnt disagree more. I would bet that he goes and gets his mates to to give Kharne a taste of their weapons, and I am damn sure that Kharne wouldnt trust em enough to have them anywhere he could not see them.

[the jeske]

as Khârn goes , not even khorn followers like or trust him , I mean it does mean something to have a nick name as he does in the csm world . the WE hate him for breaking up the legion , the dudes that do follow them die most of the time and if they are lucky it is not at the hands of special K.