How can you beat this ork list?!

[greatcrusade08]

sounds good but is it an all comers list, or is it tailoring?

[fredbob524]

@ Darkguard: since all comers lists are preferred to tailored lists (read: cheating) and in all commers list th/ss terminators with their invuln work better overall than honor guard.

 

Edit: all these darksomethings are confusing me, sorry DAwarrior43

[DAwarrior43]

@ darkwarrior, since all comers lists are preferred to tailored lists (read: cheating) and in all commers list th/ss terminators with their invuln work better overall than honor guard.

 

That may be true in your eyes, but for the role that captain Idaho uses them in his army they serve their purpose, and I think you'll find his lists to be one of the more balanced armies out there, take a look in the army list section. Plus one downfall of the assault terminators is that unless they are footslogging you need a 250 pt transport which is a slightly expensive, HG are allowed access to other cheaper alternatives that don't leave ones army with a huge point sink.

[DarkGuard]

@ darkwarrior, since all comers lists are preferred to tailored lists (read: cheating) and in all commers list th/ss terminators with their invuln work better overall than honor guard.

 

Actually its DarkGuard, if you're talking to me :(.

 

And yes, TH/SS are powerful monsters in combat, survivable and able to put out loads of damage, but that doesn't mean alternatives can't be found. Myst did mention to me that a full squad of Banshees should statistically slice through a unit of 5 TH/SS Termys the same as Honour Guard or normal Termys, although they certainly have a better chance.

 

I use an all comers list and generally only use TH/SS Termys in 2000pts, or if I want some fun. Normally I run Sternguard and Tacticals with mech support. And in all seriousness every all comers list is tailored in some way to your LGS. I don't normally have to worry about big elite units of killy things, and I have other alternatives to MCs, so naturally I don't include TH/SS which could be considered a points sink. There aren't many MCs or Land Raiders around, so I take only a minimal amount of melta and instead rely on Rifleman dreads to kill the small tanks. On the flip side one of my regular opponents has started to take Runes of Witnessing because he hates my Libby, while another is taking massive amounts of ranged firepower in an effort to stop my tanks. All of these lists are all-comers in our LGS environment, but are also tailored to that environment, rather than being tailored to an individual person.

 

And exactly my thoughts DAwarrior43, not to mention that the 250pt transport is also a massive bullet and melta magnet, and if it gets stranded and the Termys cut off that's 1/4-1/2 your list gone depending on points value.

 

Anyway that's beside the point, this topic is about killing Orks, and I feel that both TH/SS Termys and Honour Guard can be used. Nobz are scared of TH/SS, but I feel normal Boyz would fear Honour Guard more as those power weapon attacks are going to hurt more striking at I4, rather than bearing a lot of attacks and loosing bodies before striking last. It all depends on your local metagame, and what you want in an army.

[ShinyRhino]

Honour Guard also do not have to sit through 30 Orks' worth of attacks before they can swing. Honour Guard can conceivably take out 20 Ork Boyz at I4 on the charge, leaving only 10 to attack back at I2. Hammernators have to suffer the attacks of all 30 Boyz before they can even start swinging those hammers.

[Highborn Mergula]

well well as killa kans are the best shooters in the ork army (bs3) i would recomendend that not having many vehicles cause the kans will totally own them :( . i would recomendend having missile launchers in every squad possible because of the str of 8 it will totally blast some of the kans.

[greatcrusade08]

so are we back to tailoring then?

[fredbob524]

so it would appear GC

[Corby]

Honour Guard also do not have to sit through 30 Orks' worth of attacks before they can swing. Honour Guard can conceivably take out 20 Ork Boyz at I4 on the charge, leaving only 10 to attack back at I2. Hammernators have to suffer the attacks of all 30 Boyz before they can even start swinging those hammers.

 

 

But you shouldn't allow for your T-hammers to be charged by a 30 strong mob of ork boyz. They're a precision tool , not a " I can eat everything in the game " unit.

[Ming]

Oh...and the Orky tactics Ripped Dragon uses (this guy just channels Adrian Wood) usually means MOST of his games do not go beyond the beginning of turn 4, as most of his opponents were tabled by then. So if you are hoping to last a long time, fuhgetaboutit. You need your own tactics and strength to carry you.

 

Like I've posted, last tournament I lasted all 5 turns and lost on objectives and time. My assault terminators BROKE and eventually were run off the table. My speeders went forward to flame the crap out of his units, and were then either shot down or assaulted. I ran empty rhinos forward tank shock and contest possible last turn objectives, only to get them assaulted by Kans and exploded/wrecked. I double tapped his boyz mobs with flamers and bolters, only to get assaulted by unbreakable units. I actually broke Ghaz' and his nobz but they were able to rally and come back to HOLD the center, and eventually contest the objective I'd held since turn 2. And this was a close game....

 

My 3rd Co lists are seeking the balance not only to be able to play any other codex in a competite environment - they are skewed towards being able to play vs orks....

[ShinyRhino]

Honour Guard also do not have to sit through 30 Orks' worth of attacks before they can swing. Honour Guard can conceivably take out 20 Ork Boyz at I4 on the charge, leaving only 10 to attack back at I2. Hammernators have to suffer the attacks of all 30 Boyz before they can even start swinging those hammers.

 

 

But you shouldn't allow for your T-hammers to be charged by a 30 strong mob of ork boyz. They're a precision tool , not a " I can eat everything in the game " unit.

 

I was doing the math for the Honour Guard getting the charge INTo the Orks, not the other way around. Even on the charge, Hammernators strike at I1. ALL the Orks but the Nob get to swing before the Terminators in any situation that involves the Marines charging the Orks. Unless you start mixing in Claw Termies, you're taking WAY too many armor saves on the Terminators to be smart.

Orks are beaten in close combat by two things: denying them their charge bonuses, and having enough attacks to kill the majority of them before they can strike at you. I4+ on the charge, in other words.

[Captain Idaho]

Looks like I'm late!

 

Honour Guard have become an obsession for me, I think it started when they were the only fluffy, Ultramarines only unit. After using them substantially, including taking them to the last 4th edition Grand Tournament, I learnt so much I stuck to them.

 

In 5th edition they are so much better I just couldn't resist trying them out and I get them to work so stuck with them!

 

Honour Guard also do not have to sit through 30 Orks' worth of attacks before they can swing. Honour Guard can conceivably take out 20 Ork Boyz at I4 on the charge, leaving only 10 to attack back at I2. Hammernators have to suffer the attacks of all 30 Boyz before they can even start swinging those hammers.

 

 

But you shouldn't allow for your T-hammers to be charged by a 30 strong mob of ork boyz. They're a precision tool , not a " I can eat everything in the game " unit.

 

But then so are Honour Guard. They are a prescision unit but operating at the opposite end of the spectrum than Assault Terminators. Just like you wouldn't allow Assault Terminators to be charged by a 30 Mob Strong of Ork Boyz, you wouldn't allow your Honour Guard to be assaulted by a unit of Killa Kans or a Daemon Prince etc.

 

Seriously guys, try Honour Guard, at least against Orks but advsiably against every army. They munch through entire mobz and no TROOPS choice in the game can out perform them as far as I can think, save Genestealers but then you can kill them by being in cover and shooting them (they don't have grenades!).

[RIPPEDDRAGON]

Looks like I'm late!

 

Honour Guard have become an obsession for me, I think it started when they were the only fluffy, Ultramarines only unit. After using them substantially, including taking them to the last 4th edition Grand Tournament, I learnt so much I stuck to them.

 

In 5th edition they are so much better I just couldn't resist trying them out and I get them to work so stuck with them!

 

Honour Guard also do not have to sit through 30 Orks' worth of attacks before they can swing. Honour Guard can conceivably take out 20 Ork Boyz at I4 on the charge, leaving only 10 to attack back at I2. Hammernators have to suffer the attacks of all 30 Boyz before they can even start swinging those hammers.

 

 

But you shouldn't allow for your T-hammers to be charged by a 30 strong mob of ork boyz. They're a precision tool , not a " I can eat everything in the game " unit.

 

But then so are Honour Guard. They are a prescision unit but operating at the opposite end of the spectrum than Assault Terminators. Just like you wouldn't allow Assault Terminators to be charged by a 30 Mob Strong of Ork Boyz, you wouldn't allow your Honour Guard to be assaulted by a unit of Killa Kans or a Daemon Prince etc.

 

Seriously guys, try Honour Guard, at least against Orks but advsiably against every army. They munch through entire mobz and no TROOPS choice in the game can out perform them as far as I can think, save Genestealers but then you can kill them by being in cover and shooting them (they don't have grenades!).

 

 

If they lose their transport they are dead. Remember I have an 18 inch threat radius while you only have a 12 inch threat radius. Both shiny and ming can attest to the fact that they can rarely get the charge off due to the fact that both stormboys and normal boyz having a 6 inch on demand fleet move. Termis have a much better chance of getting the charge cuz i need to CC the land raider to break it while HG in a squishy transport is easy to open up with lootas or rockets. Heck most of the time I will break gahz off from his unit to solo units like that with his 2+ full turn invuln.

 

All these people talking about shooting everything before I get there are pretty ignorant. I get there on my turn 2. What does that mean? You need to focus down both the truck and stormboys going up one flank in cover. Most of the time the truck is in cover or hidden or I went first. If i went first you now only have one round of shooting to kill 20 stormboyz in cover and on a flank, a truck, Ghazghkull, 5 meganobz or 10 Wound abuse nobz. Not an easy task even given 2 turns. Now you have 60+ boyz multi charging you on turn 3 followed by 9 kans turn 4. You cant fully kill every wave and you will get behind and eventually get over run with orks.

 

On top of all that if you tailor a list for me you have 2 other rounds top play other people. Plus I know every trick in the book and everything about my list while you may have had a few games running the "counter" list.

[breng77]

Storm Boyz don't get a 6" fleet move. They still have a potential 24" charge with their extra D6 move, but the ork FAQ removed WAagh from the storm boyz.

[Voltaire]

Storm Boyz don't get a 6" fleet move. They still have a potential 24" charge with their extra D6 move, but the ork FAQ removed WAagh from the storm boyz.

 

Oh FAQ... you fickle creature you.

 

So basically this is what you use. Edited list of my former post.

 

 

Librarian - boltpistol

 

Tactical-x5-combiflamer-meltabomb

Tactical-x5-combiflamer-meltabomb

Tactical-x5-combiflamer-meltabomb

Tactical-x5-combiflamer-meltabomb

Tactical-x5-combiflamer-meltabomb

 

Landspeeder squadron-x3-x3 Multimelta-x3 Typhoon multiple missile launcher

Landspeeder squadron-x3-x3 Multimelta-x3HeavyFlamer-

Landspeeder squadron-x3-x3 Multimelta-x3HeavyFlamer-

 

Predator-Autocannon-Heavybolter sponsons

Predator-Autocannon-Heavybolter sponsons

Predator-Autocannon-Heavybolter sponsons

 

Razorback-Twinlinked Heavyflamer (huzzah for template dickery)

Razorback-Lascannon-Twinlinked Plasmagun

Razorback-Lascannon-Twinlinked Plasmagun

Razorback-Lascannon-Twinlinked Plasmagun'

Razorback-Lascannon-Twinlinked Plasmagun

 

Total: 2000pts

 

I know that this is becoming rather repetititve, please bear with me I'll explain why this list works.

 

----

 

 

Alright when using this list your strategy should revolve around one concept: Killhammer.

 

Target priority is the name of this game whilst engaging the orks, they've a large mob, and several distraction units that are each equally dangerous in their own right. However, you can effectively gut this force by focusing your firepower on the most dangerous, and valuable; targets. First you must understand that it is definate that you will be assaulted by your opponents army at least by turn three. If your lucky. Therefore you cannot afford to waste your shooting, as doing so will guarantee your defeat, and you've already seen how ugly that is.

 

Here's what you do:

 

Turn 1:

 

Predators - Blast the mobs. Focus on the closest one and shoot. Hope that you can make them weak enough for Ld checks later.

 

Landspeeder Typhoons - Aim for the Killa kans, the orks are too far apart for 2" templates to do anything good. The walkers need to die.

 

Landspeeder regulars - Two squads, two options. You can choose to either mass rush/deepstrike them to wreck the kans. Deepstrike one or both to weed out the lootas/kill the stormboyz.

 

Razorbacks w/las-plas - Shoot down the truck, if you can see it shoot it. It's a huge problem and you can't afford to ignore it, it'll merely flank around and cause massive amounts of butthurt later. Better to break the trukk and force them into the mob, when your opponent pulls wound allocation magic with the nobz, all the better if they cant pursue you when you run away from assault, and it also increases the likelihood that they'll die from your massed shooting. If you can shoot the Stormboys with plasma then do so.

 

Razorback w/Flamer - Wait for the stormboyz, stay close to your predators.

 

Turn 2

 

Tacticals - Get your marines out, and behind the razorbacks; you don't want them to die from explosions. mass rapid fire the stormboyz if possible.

 

Predators - Keep shooting at mobs, dont try to kill them all, just bring them down so that you might get rid of their fearless in assault.

 

Typhoons - keep shooting the Killa kans, try to stay out of the loota boys range/force cover saves.

 

Landspeeders - continue with plan from turn 1

 

Razorbacks- make a wall, use terrain to your advantage, but slow the orks down.

 

Turn 2 assault: Pray the wave doesn't hit to hard. If your marines are in combat and still alive choose to fail moral and get them away so they can shoot.

 

Turn 3 shoot the mobs with all anti-infantry weapons

 

Typhoons - if still alive, keep shooting those damn kans. IF kans are dead shoot the orks/trukk.

 

note: This is for annihilation specifically. However portions of this strategy can be used in objective games. Note that most of your force will probably die.

 

 

This army is not tailored, however it is effective. I think either way both players will have a hard time/fun time. Max competition and max enjoyment.

[Captain Idaho]

@ RIPPEDDRAGON: So your armies shooting is amazingly powerful and can destroy transports at will and devastate a players carefully laid out counter attack, whilst any shooting against your army will fail to do anything?

 

Wow, your army sounds like it can win against anything like that.

 

Why don't you bring it to the Ultramarines meet and we can have a good laugh and perhaps show each other a thing or 2? (are you UK based?)

 

I never lose their transport so easily. At least not without getting a decent move at least once a game. It's all in the positioning. It's not hard to put a Rhino in front of a Rhino with Assault unit.

[greatcrusade08]

(are you UK based?)

 

hes in maine near new york...

 

all "my dad" arguments aside id rate Idahos list as a good one to take this ork horde on with..

whether he could beat it or not is dependant on the dice gods.. the fickle mistressess they are

[ShinyRhino]

all "my dad" arguments aside

 

It's important to remember that no one really gains anything by the waggling of epeens on the intertubes. As GC08 said, the "my dad can beat up your dad!" comments and comparisons don't do jack for anyone. Let's not let this evolve into an ego fight.

Comparing and contrasting various useful units is fine, but slapping down trump cards furthers no one's education in the game.

[Zynk Kaladin]

Theory is nice, but only battle can tell. If only there was an online version of WH40K to shorten the distances between players...

[greatcrusade08]

just as long as you all know that my dad really is 'arder than yours :P

 

some of my favourite games have been against hordes.. orks are slightly different in that they can shoot large numbers of high strength shots but without the charge they rely on numbers alone.

i remember taking on a tri-tervigon nid horde at the indy tourney sad muppets in may.. hell of a game, he must have had 200 models on the board at one point.

[fredbob524]

@ ShinyRhino, you just say that because my dad could so beat up yours

[RIPPEDDRAGON]

well i was ranting the stormboyz dont but they do have their extra d6...they were way too gross pre faq

[Corby]

all "my dad" arguments aside

 

It's important to remember that no one really gains anything by the waggling of epeens on the intertubes. As GC08 said, the "my dad can beat up your dad!" comments and comparisons don't do jack for anyone. Let's not let this evolve into an ego fight.

Comparing and contrasting various useful units is fine, but slapping down trump cards furthers no one's education in the game.

 

 

True. Sorry for the mis understanding regarding your previous point Shiny.

[RIPPEDDRAGON]

@voltaire

 

with the mobs being in cover you can really only expect 2-3 kills a turn per pred

the speeders with missiles only average 1 kan a turn for kills

dont ever get out of the vehicles cuz the stormboyz will get you

yes kill the truck #1 but what happens if I go first or it is out of los?

small squads = easy kills and harder to hold objectives with

flamer speeders esp in squads fall really easy

 

good list but it still will have a hard time winning esp in our tourney setting

 

the simple answer to the question on how to beat me is bring a balanced mech list to handle 2 other rounds of play and still balanced enough to do well vs me

 

if you want a vid of a BA mech list beating my orks go see the first vid I posted on my blog

[Grey Mage]

sounds good but is it an all comers list, or is it tailoring?

Its rather close to my all comers list at 2k- for a standard tourney all comers Id drop Bjeorn to put the RP on a bike with some swiftclaws.... and upgrade the LFs razorback to a las/plaz. I wouldnt consider adding Bjeorn to be tailoring though, just a bit of fun.

 

My other 2k list is DPs- and could also deal with the ork threat handily. Either deploying normally and using the DPs to cut off certain positions, or dropping in to get up close and personal on turn 2. It would be harder, due to the missing WW and lesser amount of heavy weapons fire- but the Ork Player was kind enough to not take alot of battlewagons so its not as bad as it might have been.

 

HQ: 185pts.

Rune Priest- Bike, Master of Runes, Stormcaller, Living Lightning- 185pts.

 

Elites: 405pts.

Dreadnaught- Assault Cannon, HF, EA- DP- 165pts.

Dreadnaught- MM, EA- DP- 155pts.

5 Scouts- Meltagun- 85

 

Troops: 1055

10 GHs- 2x Meltagun, PW, DP- 205pts.

10 GHs- 2x Meltagun, PW, DP- 205pts.

10 GHs- 2x Meltagun, PW, DP- 205pts.

10 GHs- 2x Plasmagun, PF, DP- 220pts.

10 GHs- 2x Plasmagun, PF, DP- 220pts.

 

 

6 Swiftclaws- Powerfist- 175pts.

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.

Landspeeder Typhoon- 90pts.