How can you beat this ork list?!

[Ming]

Ya know, this discussion has been long winded, but I think you guys worked really hard to develop all comers list that might be able to wreck mech and hordes....great job!

[Sykosis]

ah boy, here we go.

 

i also play at this local game store, a bunch of great guys with nice looking armies. i feel their biggest problem though is their own making. the grand bulk of the armies that show up to competative tournament play are rather uncompetative "fluffy" armies. i notice at least 9 out of the 15 players i see there really don't have a clue about what their doing. Ming builds some great lists, but suffers my own fate of rolling more 1's and 2's then are healthy. Rhino's all bike list is extremely pretty to look at, and until he added Khan, wasn't scary at all. next you have a tau player who can knock you out without firing a shot. another guy who's armies swap with the latest and greatest dex, and then you have a guy who bounces between guard and every other SM dex he gets his hands on but rolls more 6's then liberatchi. these are the top playersd currently, aside from ripped of course. our last tournament saw ripped face necrons, mings ultra's, and then a much lesser built ork army for the win. this seems to be the norm given the amount of fluff brought about, two easy games and then an actual game agenst some one else intending to win.

 

in short, i have yet to be able to face ripped in tourney play as so far i tend to get paired to one of the other greats in the first round and either draw or loose. do i feel his orks are invincible killing machines like everyone makes them out to be? hell no. do i think i could beat them? yup deffinatly. will i get the chance? more then likely. am i going to cry when he beats me? no its part of the game.

[ShinyRhino]

Rhino's all bike list is extremely pretty to look at, and until he added Khan, wasn't scary at all.

 

I'll keep that in mind. :huh:

[bystrom]

I've been thinking about the massive spacing the ork mobz are utilising to avoid getting templated, how are they deployed? In squares? Each mob next to one another? How many rows deep, where in the unit is the nob (back, front sides, dead center etc.)?

 

The reason for this is that if the mobz are next to one another and spaced out really well, then you can multi-charge squads to create one giant close combat by charging two ork squads with each of your squads. The reason for this is that the boys won't be able to attack if they're too spread out because they won't be able to react far enough. You're also going to win each 'part'-combat by several wounds, which will be added together and then forced upon each ork mob. This can quickly create a situation where you inflict up to 20 wounds per ork mob which they have to save because of fearless. Ie they die. Actually smaller and durable squads are probably better as the orks will have a harder time to react towards them. Its also needed to charge so that your squads don't spread out, you want to hit the orks in pockets rather than in a long line. But done, even with a small honour guard and two-three tactical squads will inflict massive fearless wounds on them.

[breng77]

Assuming a smart ork player the nobs are in the middle of the unit. If you charge 2 units of orks each with 5 Honor Guard (with a banner and Relic Blades), and 2 10 man tactical squads (with fists). That will be 4 squads of Boyz (say 29 each with 1 nob). Or 120 Boyz. After You charge every model within 8 inches of each side will be able to make in into combat (6" pile in + 2" engaged). A majority of the boyz will make it into CC (say 96 boyz and 4 NObz.) You attack killing 19 Boyz at I4 (mostly non engaged as you need to split your attacks up between 4 squads). The 96 boyz strike back and Kill About 11 marines (10.7) and aout 3 Honor Guard (2.7). Then At I 1 You attack with 6 PF attacks killing say 3 more Orks (total of 22). You now take 12 Power Klaw attacks (if the orks were smart 6 on the HOnor Guard and 3 on each tactical squad.) Which kill the remaining 2 Honor Guard, and 6 more marines. (21 total.) You "win" Combat by 1 killing 4 more orks. Now Your 5 remaing marines are stuck in combat with 98 orks :). Now you could multi charge fewer squads with your 3 squads But then you are going to get counter charged by a smart ork player (especially if you are still locked in combat.)

[ShinyRhino]

Assuming a smart ork player the nobs are in the middle of the unit. If you charge 2 units of orks each with 5 Honor Guard (with a banner and Relic Blades), and 2 10 man tactical squads (with fists). That will be 4 squads of Boyz (say 29 each with 1 nob). Or 120 Boyz. After You charge every model within 8 inches of each side will be able to make in into combat (6" pile in + 2" engaged). A majority of the boyz will make it into CC (say 96 boyz and 4 NObz.) You attack killing 19 Boyz at I4 (mostly non engaged as you need to split your attacks up between 4 squads). The 96 boyz strike back and Kill About 11 marines (10.7) and aout 3 Honor Guard (2.7). Then At I 1 You attack with 6 PF attacks killing say 3 more Orks (total of 22). You now take 12 Power Klaw attacks (if the orks were smart 6 on the HOnor Guard and 3 on each tactical squad.) Which kill the remaining 2 Honor Guard, and 6 more marines. (21 total.) You "win" Combat by 1 killing 4 more orks. Now Your 5 remaing marines are stuck in combat with 98 orks ^_^. Now you could multi charge fewer squads with your 3 squads But then you are going to get counter charged by a smart ork player (especially if you are still locked in combat.)

 

Why are you charging four units at a time? Is that even spatially possible, given the 2" spread between models? There actually shouldn't be much space left after the cmobat is over. A small unit of attackers SHOULD be fully enveloped by the surviving Orks, since as many Orks as possible MUST Pile in to get to B2B after the combat is resolved. Fully enclosed in your Ork Sleeping Bag, no additional mobs can get to B2B with you to counter.

[greatcrusade08]

i undertsand bystroms point and have beaten ork hordes under similar circumstances..

Orks win with numbers.. so you use everything you can muster to take on one or two big units and win combat by a big number.. = lots of dead orks

you then only have to face half an ork army instead of a whole one..

it takes some brass but its a solid tactic.

 

with me it was khan, chappy and assault scouts combined with scout bikers and Telion fire to kill a nob from one unit (over two turns).. khans unit killed one 30 man squad in one turn.. reducing it to under ten models and running them down.. the bikes took alot longer, but T5 is hard for S3 orks with no klaw to beat..

[breng77]

Actually the best success I have had with this type of multi assault is using a small squad to tie 2 squads together and then assaulting the other squad with enough to deal a bunch of wounds. TO win combat. This has worked to beat nobs before. 3 Bikes Locked in the assault with Ghazgkull and Meganobs and a large squad of boyz, then other units attacking the boyz. The 3 bikes died horribly but I won combat and Ghaz and the meganobs ran off the board.

 

I used 4 squads in the above example because the previous poster said he would charge 2 ork mobs with each of his squads, in that case the orks on't need to counter charge, in a smaller combat, there will probably be room for them to charge another squad in.

[Voltaire]

So basically your saying Infiltrate a squad of clawed assault terminators and force them to surround you?

Also vanilla marines are more of a shooting army than assaulting.

 

 

Also noticed ShinyRhinos post about attackbikes and took that into consideration. Revised my list as well.

 

Do your rules refer to combi weapons by each type, or by the generic term 'combi'? Battle of salvation referred to them in the broader sense, and gave way for numerous loopholes

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

Librarian-Combi-bomb-Nullzone-Avenger

 

Tactical-x5-combi-meltabomb

Tactical-x5-combi-meltabomb

Tactical-x5-combi-meltabomb

Tactical-x5-combi-meltabomb

Tactical-x5-combi-meltabomb

 

Sternguard-x5-lighting claw-heavyflamer

Sternguard-x5-lighting claw-heavyflamer

 

Attackbike squadron-x3-heavybolter(s)

Attackbike squadron-x3-heavybolter(s)

 

Predator-autocannon-lascannon sponsons

Predator-autocannon-lascannon sponsons

 

Razorback-lascannon-twinlinked plasmagun

Razorback-lascannon-twinlinked plasmagun

Razorback-lascannon-twinlinked plasmagun

Razorback-lascannon-twinlinked plasmagun

Razorback-lascannon-twinlinked plasmagun

Razorback-lascannon-twinlinked plasmagun

Razorback-lascannon-twinlinked plasmagun

 

Total-2000pts

 

By the way with mech armies I play to kill my opponents force, objectives are to be worried about in turns 4 and 5, otherwise I'm busy shooting you to death. With this list I think I can kill just about anything. Small squads are fine so long as you pay attention.

[bystrom]

hmm, didn't think that many would get to attack, tried setting up the scenario in a smaller scale (one ork squad and two 5-man squads on each flank) and a lot more orks got to attack than I originally thought. Not as many as 5/6ths (as breng77 was using) but still quite a few (2/3rds).

 

The situation I was trying to figurate can I guess best be explained with an example. Say there are four ork mobz of 30 orks each. They are lined up so that they are next to each other but and have a certain depth (say four to five ranks deep).

 

The first tactical squad charges the rightmost squad on the left corner flank, consequently also hitting the ork squad to the left of it in its right corner flank.

The second tactical squad charges this second ork squad but in the left corner flank also hitting the ork squad to its left in the right corner flank.

And so on.

The first tactical squad is engaged with the rightmost ork squad and the squad to its left. Since these two ork squads are engaged with both the first and the second tactical squad, they're all in the same combat, despite the fact that the second tactical squad is nowhere near the ork squad to the far right.

Since the second tactical squad is in this combat, so is the third ork squad, etc.

[Slim]

I had a similar problem with Orks in my local area - but managed to come up with something using Dark Angels to take them down (also used the same list against Marines, Chaos Marines and Sisters).

 

The basic premise is taking small squads of tacticals (5 man) for objective grabbing but leaving them in Razorbacks as long as possible (I took two Heavy Bolter and one Lascannon Razorback). You also take an Interrogator Chaplain and a 5-man Lightning Claw Squad in a Land Raider - avoid the Kans but deliver them into Boyz units and they should do the rest for you. I found that I was taking 30 Boyz down on the charge without them getting an attack back.

 

Meanwhile take some Devastators to pop the battlewagon asap - slowing those Nobz and Ghaz down is crucial. You can then unleash missiles into them as they advance, or switch targets to krak the Kans (remember Squadrons go down with immobilised results). I also took a Vindicator to drop templates on the Nobz once out of the transport. No point in getting into hand-to-hand with them - just use high strength to double them out. You will want to take those Storm Boyz out quickly too as they are a fast threat to your lines.

 

Generally, I would recommend shooting the middle units of Orks to split their forces down the middle and making it harder for them to support each other. Avoid letting them get the charge and don't be afraid to use the Terminators to get in right their face as soon as possible.

[Ming]

You can see the latest news on this saga here:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...;showentry=6651

 

If Ultramarines Models could take Vows, My figures would swear to never sleep until the green menace played by Ripped is beaten soundly. You can watch my blog titles for signs of Victory...because when it happens, it will be posted everywhere in celebration. I think this thread and the tripolar inputs from Thor (in that he plays Orks as a hobby when he is not playing Marines or Necrons) have given me lots of food for thought on how to really pull it off. I may have to pay off the FLGS to make sure we meet round 1 in the next tournament....bwahahahahahhahaaa....

[breng77]

You also take an Interrogator Chaplain and a 5-man Lightning Claw Squad in a Land Raider - avoid the Kans but deliver them into Boyz units and they should do the rest for you. I found that I was taking 30 Boyz down on the charge without them getting an attack back.

 

How do you figure this works out, unless the land raider is killing a bunch of boyz before you charge, the chaplain, and 5 LC termies don't have enough attacks to kill 30 boyz before they hit back. (You will likely win combat, but you will take hits).

 

On the charge YOur termies have 4 attacks each, as does the IC, even if you hit and wound with everything, there would still be 7 boys and a Nob left to hit back (if the NOb takes 1 wounds). then the Nob and boyz probably kill a termi or 2, and then run away.

 

Looking at odds you will do 13 wounds, SO 12 boyz die and the nob takes 1 wound. Now, 18 boyz hit back, as will the nob and together they kill about 3 Termies. So they lose by 10 wounds, which kills 8 more orks. So now you have 10 orks, and the chaplain and 2 termies left. Then on the ork turn you probably get charged by, either more boyz, or kans, and have lost 350 points to kill 200 points of orks.

[MagicMan]

The main thing that annoys me about the Ork player i face is that he spreads his 30 strong squad out to the maximum 2 inch thingy to avoid blast/flame templates, but when he assaults he pushes them all up to within 2 inches.

 

 

I feel like a dick pointing out that you can only move each model 6 inches, but if hes going to spread them out to avoid casualties, i think i might have to soon.

[Captain Idaho]

How do you figure this works out, unless the land raider is killing a bunch of boyz before you charge, the chaplain, and 5 LC termies don't have enough attacks to kill 30 boyz before they hit back. (You will likely win combat, but you will take hits).

 

All good players will support their assaulting units where neccessary :to:

 

Looking at odds you will do 13 wounds, SO 12 boyz die and the nob takes 1 wound. Now, 18 boyz hit back, as will the nob and together they kill about 3 Termies.

 

That's why I always advocate Honour Guard + Chapter Master against Orks! Even 30 strong units take hammerings against them. I've done it a few times.

 

Between the Master and Relic Blade Champion you usually kill about 5-7 Orks, and the rest of the squad usually take down a further 5-8 (obviously Math-hammer tells us silly stats, but that's why it's no good here. I normally run simulations on a quiet night...). You can also shoot a few bolt pistols on the way in for some more kills.

 

Attack a flanking unit preferably to limit the amout of return counter charges and you should be ok. Also, don't do this in isolation, force an opponent to receive a concerted assault and then he will have less to counter your attack with.

[greatcrusade08]

divide and conquer

[Captain Juan Juarez]

divide and conquer

 

Waylay him in a dark alley, "divide" him from his army and "conquer" him with a stick?

[breng77]

OF course. Mathhammer just lets you know what to expect from the odds. But even being optimistic neither unit can wipe out a 30 man ork squad, with out getting hit back at all. Now, you might not lose any models, but that is not the claim that was made. As far as simulations, they don't tell you anything either, as the combat can go either way at any time. It is entirely possible to charge the orks and kill none of them (unlikely, but possible). I'm certainly not saying that you cannot win combat against orks, just that it is not as simple as, well I run up may hammer in a land raider, and kill all the orks.

 

Even with your Honor Guard (not sure how large a squad you are looking at) that is a minimum of 285 points (with relic blade CM, and Champ, and 2 other honor guard) against 220 points of orks (max), chances are it is more like 350+ points against the orks, not including a transport. So I would hope that that squad would win.

[greatcrusade08]

OF course. Mathhammer just lets you know what to expect from the odds. But even being optimistic neither unit can wipe out a 30 man ork squad, with out getting hit back at all. Now, you might not lose any models, but that is not the claim that was made. As far as simulations, they don't tell you anything either, as the combat can go either way at any time. It is entirely possible to charge the orks and kill none of them (unlikely, but possible). I'm certainly not saying that you cannot win combat against orks, just that it is not as simple as, well I run up may hammer in a land raider, and kill all the orks.

 

Even with your Honor Guard (not sure how large a squad you are looking at) that is a minimum of 285 points (with relic blade CM, and Champ, and 2 other honor guard) against 220 points of orks (max), chances are it is more like 350+ points against the orks, not including a transport. So I would hope that that squad would win.

 

the idea that equal points can win against equal points doesnt work with orks.. you have to overwhelm them first.. aslong as you can do half a dozen casualties wih shooting and reduce them to below ten models in assault you can run them down.

it doesnt matter if you lose the odd termy or honour gaurd.. its a good trade.

you can then 'gang' up on the next mob coming your way.

 

a good commander could in theory deal with ork mobs without dedicating thier whole army to shooting at them.. this is what orks want, then thier kans and nobs get to your lines scot free.

[breng77]

Indeed, nor am I saying you should be using even, points, just that if you end up trading that high cost unit for fewer points of orks, it is a mistake. I think that the crux of the whole thing, is that this is an impossible topic to answer away from a table. Could I beat this ork list? sure. Can I beat the player, using this ork list? No idea, I'd have to play him to find out. While you can suggest things that might work, it is all in a vacum, without the table set up, and taking units in a vacuum on both sides of the argument.

[Captain Idaho]

For the record my Honour Guard are 225pts and I attach a Master with Relic Blade and Storm Shield.

 

The idea is the squad can be relied upon (in most games where improbable luck doesn't ruin things for you) to "take care" of a particular unit in the opponent's list. Whether you win the game is based upon whether you can get the rest of the army to perform their role when it is needed. The Honour Guard are useful because they have massed attacks to offset as much bad luck as possible.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I think alot of the trouble is people are looking for the pitfalls in solutions, rather than seeing how to maxmise the potential of those solutions.

[breng77]

I'm assuming you mean 225 without accounting for the chapter master (which I was counting in my point costs) Which would make yours 395 points for that squad. That unit is a large hammer unit, and depending on the point cost of the game a large portion of your army. Which is a good unit that you have had success with. I would be unlikely to want to run the same unit because it does not fit my style of play. In your hands that unit may do very well against said orks, it is not however, make me want to recommend it as the fix to a particular situation such as this. (not that I have a fix either, as I think this argument is comming down to the ork player being a better player than those going up against him. At least at this time with his list.)

[Captain Idaho]

I must confess I agree with you that Honour Guard only work for certain people (not that others can't work it out, rather it goes against their preferred playstyle and army builds) so that is perfectly valid breng77.

 

I just like to encourage their usage because many people disregard them as a valid choice in a game without first seeing whether they work for them. And by talking about the unit, readers of the topic might be inspired to try them (oh the hubris!), even if the person I am talking to might not be keen.

 

You could call me an Honour Guard activist!

[LardO'Blood]

How do you figure this works out, unless the land raider is killing a bunch of boyz before you charge, the chaplain, and 5 LC termies don't have enough attacks to kill 30 boyz before they hit back. (You will likely win combat, but you will take hits).

Erm...

...5 LC terminators with a chaplain "guarantees" at least 21-22 dead orks before they attack...and 6 boyz will die to a hurricane bolter at 12" and 3 or 4 will die to the assault cannon...Thats 31-32, enough to even take out a nob with the squad...And this is in a vacuum where the squad hasn't been weakened...(20 [LC attacks] * 1/2 [chance to hit] * 2 [reroll to hit] * 1/2 [chance to wound]] * 2 [reroll to wound]. No armor saves and each terminator has 4 attacks, 2 base, 1 for 2 CC weapons and 1 for charging. The extra 1-2 is because the chaplain should kill 1 or 2 depending on if he is in power armor with 2 CC weapons, or in terminator armor)