How can you beat this ork list?!

[breng77]

I agree most people look at them and deem that they are over costed when compaired to say assault terminators, without considering any advantages they may have. I think the price point + lack of invul save is a big sticking point for most people. While not accounting for the fact that offensively they are better than terminators (they either have more attacks overall, or have S 6 attacks at initiative.). Against small arms fire and non-PW attacks they are every bit as good as terminators. I think the other big sticking point is the needing to include a chapter master. If I am taking a special character, and want a secondary HQ it is likely a Libriarian, not a chapter master. Or maybe I only want one HQ to save on points. SO I think those ideas, are kind of holding the Honor Guard back as being something more people include.

[LardO'Blood]

The main thing that annoys me about the Ork player i face is that he spreads his 30 strong squad out to the maximum 2 inch thingy to avoid blast/flame templates, but when he assaults he pushes them all up to within 2 inches.

 

 

I feel like a dick pointing out that you can only move each model 6 inches, but if hes going to spread them out to avoid casualties, i think i might have to soon.

Yeah, I come across this a lot to, but the leader of my gaming club won't out law it because he is a tyranid player and he likes doing it with gaunts...

[breng77]

Erm...

...5 LC terminators with a chaplain "guarantees" at least 21-22 dead orks before they attack...and 6 boyz will die to a hurricane bolter at 12" and 3 or 4 will die to the assault cannon...Thats 31-32, enough to even take out a nob with the squad...And this is in a vacuum where the squad hasn't been weakened...(20 [LC attacks] * 1/2 [chance to hit] * 2 [reroll to hit] * 1/2 [chance to wound]] * 2 [reroll to wound]. No armor saves and each terminator has 4 attacks, 2 base, 1 for 2 CC weapons and 1 for charging. The extra 1-2 is because the chaplain should kill 1 or 2 depending on if he is in power armor with 2 CC weapons, or in terminator armor)

@ Lardo'Blood

You math is not correct. 20 LC attacks * 1/2 = 10 hits, Rerolling 10 misses *1/2 = 5 more hits, so 15 hits * 1/2 to wound = 7.5 wounds, 7.5 failed wounds re-roll *1/2= 3.75 more wounds, so a total of 11.25 wounds. The chaplain has 4 attacks * 2/3=2.7 hits(about) and 1.3 misses re-rolled *2/3=0.89 more hits or 3.6 hits*1/2=1.8 more wounds. So the total is 13.05 wounds In CC not 21-or 22 dead Orks. The statement made was that this would wipe out the orks (in a Vacuum) on the charge. If you are counting the crusader You are looking at another 8.3 wounds, so still only 21.35 wounds, leaving about 9 orks and a Nob, to strike back. If we are including other units weakening the squad then you also have to take into account, other orks, possibly destroying the land raider, or killing the rest of your list while you try to get around the kans.

[greatcrusade08]

if hes losing more than 20 orks hes running.. if you lose a couple of termies to the nob who cares, youve just wiped out a whole mob of orks with one unit..

[breng77]

Again, I never said you would not win the combat (in fact I said that you would in fact win combat), or that it was not worthwhile to charge the Orks, simply the assertion that you would wipe out the orks before they would swing, is incorrect, unless we are talking about an already weakened mob. Also without the LRC, the mob would still be fearless, and would just lose more boyz.

[LardO'Blood]

Erm...

...5 LC terminators with a chaplain "guarantees" at least 21-22 dead orks before they attack...and 6 boyz will die to a hurricane bolter at 12" and 3 or 4 will die to the assault cannon...Thats 31-32, enough to even take out a nob with the squad...And this is in a vacuum where the squad hasn't been weakened...(20 [LC attacks] * 1/2 [chance to hit] * 2 [reroll to hit] * 1/2 [chance to wound]] * 2 [reroll to wound]. No armor saves and each terminator has 4 attacks, 2 base, 1 for 2 CC weapons and 1 for charging. The extra 1-2 is because the chaplain should kill 1 or 2 depending on if he is in power armor with 2 CC weapons, or in terminator armor)

@ Lardo'Blood

You math is not correct. 20 LC attacks * 1/2 = 10 hits, Rerolling 10 misses *1/2 = 5 more hits, so 15 hits * 1/2 to wound = 7.5 wounds, 7.5 failed wounds re-roll *1/2= 3.75 more wounds, so a total of 11.25 wounds. The chaplain has 4 attacks * 2/3=2.7 hits(about) and 1.3 misses re-rolled *2/3=0.89 more hits or 3.6 hits*1/2=1.8 more wounds. So the total is 13.05 wounds In CC not 21-or 22 dead Orks. The statement made was that this would wipe out the orks (in a Vacuum) on the charge. If you are counting the crusader You are looking at another 8.3 wounds, so still only 21.35 wounds, leaving about 9 orks and a Nob, to strike back. If we are including other units weakening the squad then you also have to take into account, other orks, possibly destroying the land raider, or killing the rest of your list while you try to get around the kans.

Well I feel like a moron :D

Re looking at the math I suppose your right...I knew something was wrong when I typed it up.

[breng77]

NO problem I am a huge math geek, so I would not worry about it.

[Ming]

Throw in a Waaaaugh Banner for rerolling morale, and the orks may stay and hold you in place till the next wave hits.

 

Overall, Orks in this horde / Kan Wall can be beaten, even with Ghaz in the mix, but it is VERY difficult to do.

 

Most of my strategy had been to try to deal with Ghaz in the trukk turn 1, followed by trying to take him totally out of the game. Many have tried it. Most have been massacred trying. It looks like it is not the key, but a distraction. Remember, the ork list is all about making you go on the defensive, and then making bad choices from all the bad choices they give you.

 

Thinking about the last three varied games Ripped Played (see blog) http://rippeddragon.blogspot.com/

 

Ghaz is usually in the center of the ork line, more often than not.

 

Imagine how Chaos might play this line.

 

Get the orks to go and set up first is good, second is fine too.

 

3 units of Oblits or 3 preds in the center, with a nearby unit to bubble them with. The bubble needs to be able to hold its own vs nobz for a turn or 2.

 

Other units strong to both flanks -

 

The goal is to have three mission oriented units:

 

Central unit: Main mission - Ghaz's ride. Take it out and make him walk. Secondary mission - Ghaz/nobz/painboy or kans, whatever is best target of opportunity. If the central unit has lash, all the better if the trukk is busted and ghaz and nobz can be placed out for a nice multi-plasma cannon blast maker hit.

 

Task force X: Main mission - eliminate 30 boyz mob entirely in one turn, via shooting and assault. Secondary mission - kans or second wave units. Tertiary mission - objectives.

 

Task force XX: Main mission - eliminate 20 stormboyz. Secondary mission - eliminate 30 boyz mob entirely via attrition. Tertiary mission - objectives. If the stormboyz move away from this task force, immediately go to the secondary mission.

 

Central unit, as stated above, has to have the dice to take down that trukk - so mandatory 3 long range dice (oblit las) or shorter range high S dice will do it nicely. The other units are insurance - and take advantage of the trukkless ghaz to do more damage. 2 ore units of oblits, or preds, or defilers may be really good here. They have to have a bubble wrap picket line that can move quickly to the fron if needed - I was thinking chosen or nurgle marines, but havocs might be interesting as well. The bubble wrap unit starts in a rhino with the lash sorceror. The sorceror never leaves his ride.

 

Task force X and XX should be redundant. They need to have the ability to do what is described above. We already know the orks are spread out and on foot. Flamers in this force may not be needed unless there is a tactic to bunch them up. Assault weapons are. Since the center is already held by heavies, these wings need to be at least partially in rhinos or landraider transported to start. As we are thinking chaos, rhinos with combiflamers are great for tank shocking the mobz into a nice pattern (if the kan wall is holed). Each task force needs 6 multi-melta equivalents in order to handle the Kans if the center is otherwise distracted. Berzerkers or other chaos units (2 in each force), plus support, could do the job.

 

The overall flow:

 

Turn 1 is to take out Ghaz' trukk in the center, as far back as possible, eliminating a kan mob, and eliminating or weakening the stormboyz. Ghaz now walks, and the nobz with him unless they split. If Ghaz is in front of the center (from going first), bubble wrap will have to engage and Ghaz becomes a priority. The stormboyz are still a threat that may extend to turn 2.

 

Turn 2 and 3 - eliminating a boyz mob, another kan mob, lash wrecking ghaz'z nobz, and setting up to engage the second large mob. Somewhere here the waugh happens, so it is better to engage the orks before it happens.

 

Turn 4 and 5 - eliminating the third group of kans, taking objectives, and looking for taking down other killpoint choices. Ghaz may still be a threat, but can also be lashed away to make him keep running around.

 

Overall, I think this setup can work for chaos, and similar thinking can be applied. If the setup is spearhead, tactical decisions have to be made on what goes where and when. Dawn of war is good, as it means the lootas can also be contained. Having a nurgle-themed list, all the chaos marines are tougher, and the rhinos can outflank as another tactical option. The bubble wrappers in the center should be higher toughness, possible invulnerable saves, and power weapons in abundance. I think these chaos solutions can be converted to Imperial thinking and applied in a similar way.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Well, I personally haven't faced a proper Kan Wall ork List, mostly just lots of Orks in Trukks, trying to get as close as possible as fast as possible. It's pretty good list, and its a fun match whenever i verse him. Back on topic, To counter this list, would you consider the Thunderfire? I know that it has been covered extensively in my other Thread, but I have faced a massive Living Tide army, with ridiculous amounts of Gaunts and Termagants on the board. The thing which saved were my Tfires by slowing him down with difficult terrain movement to buy enough time for me to whittle him down and win the match. Killing about 5-10 gaunts per shooting phase also helped as well :)

I figure that same principle can be applied here, and spreading out will actually slow down his entire army, not just the single/2 units that were hit.

haven't tested it though, just a suggestion. Outside of that? use a Redeemer to charge forward and simply tank shock and flame lots of Orks. though it will hurt losing 250 points to hidden Klaws, but successful tank shocking can "sweeping advance" an entire Ork unit, if i'm not mistaken? Not sure if they can move through their own units, so thats just a guess.

my 2 cents

[Captain Idaho]

Sorry you are mistaken on Tank Shock. All it does is force a unit to take a morale test, if failed they fall back. You aren't assaulting them therefore you can't run them down.

 

The fact an eleven strong Ork mob is fearless means Tank Shock can at best herd a unit into an area (ripe for template weapons from the Redeemer, but not game breaking sadly).

[spartan249]

I'm inclined to try to see how my current all-comers list would fight this force.

 

2000 pts "Dreadraiders mk.9"

HQ

MotF: 100 pts

Librarian: NZ & GoI - 100 pts

Troops

Scout Squad: 5 scouts - 75 pts

Scout Squad: 5 scouts - 75 pts

Elites

Venerable Dreadnought: TLLC, HF - 205 pts

Venerable Dreadnought: TLLC, HF - 205 pts

Venerable Dreadnought: TLLC, HF - 205 pts

Heavy Support

Venerable Dreadnought: TLLC, HF - 205 pts

Land Raider: Mmelta, EA - 275 pts

Land Raider: EA - 265 pts

Fast Attack

Land Speeder: Mmelta, TML - 100 pts

Land Speeder: Mmelta, TML - 100 pts

Land Speeder: TML - 90 pts

 

With these resources, I have to get everything done. For this list, I would reverse my normal phalanx formation, putting the LRs in front, the dreads on the flanks, and the speeders further behind the dreads.

 

The Land Raiders will have the main job of lighting up the Ghazgkhull trukk. If I can't destroy it, then I'll try to aim for an immobilization... anything to make the thing stop moving for at least 1 turn.

 

The Dreads and Speeders will target the Kans as the first priority, targetting Ghaz's trukk in the dire chance that the trukk saves all the lascannon hits.

 

After the Kans are suitably crippled by fire, I'll turn attention on any threats to my dreadnoughts. Most of the time, that'll be Ghaz and his squad, otherwise I'll focus on the lootas with my LRs.

 

Of course, the formation should be moving at least 6" angled away every turn, firing as I go. As I'm taking my troops with me, I'll have no need to be anchored to any spot, thus no worries of them reaching me as quickly.

 

If I am lucky enough to destroy all the kans and kill Ghazgkhull, then I'll risk having my dreads assault the boyz, flaming if possible. The Land speeders, if still alive, will move to contest any objectives my opponent may have, and the LRs will most likely move to claim any objectives I can.

 

To be honest, this isn't the list I would choose to fight the Ghaz kan wall specifically. The dreads drag their feet too much in the match-up. I would rather run a Blood angels predator spearhead with the LR centerpiece. Faster movement, more guns, more flexibility in objectives games given the list's ability to move 18"~24". However, this list would be more vulnerable to the storm boy flankers as they would be actually able to damage the predator on the charge, thus adding the stormboyz to the list of things that need to die immediately.

[Br0ther Rafen]

Sorry you are mistaken on Tank Shock. All it does is force a unit to take a morale test, if failed they fall back. You aren't assaulting them therefore you can't run them down.

 

The fact an eleven strong Ork mob is fearless means Tank Shock can at best herd a unit into an area (ripe for template weapons from the Redeemer, but not game breaking sadly).

 

I know that Sweeping Advance is only used in combat, but i meant that if you give them no room to fall back to, the squad is automatically destroyed.

I'm just not sure if they can fall back through their own units, thats all.

Though i forgot their Fearless, so it doesn't matter anyway. ah well, thanks for reminding me.

[MagicMan]

The main thing that annoys me about the Ork player i face is that he spreads his 30 strong squad out to the maximum 2 inch thingy to avoid blast/flame templates, but when he assaults he pushes them all up to within 2 inches.

 

 

I feel like a dick pointing out that you can only move each model 6 inches, but if hes going to spread them out to avoid casualties, i think i might have to soon.

Yeah, I come across this a lot to, but the leader of my gaming club won't out law it because he is a tyranid player and he likes doing it with gaunts...

 

 

That sucks.

 

I play nids too, but i dont bother making sure they're all 2 inches away from each other, its just a hassle and feels like bad sportsmanship.

 

 

Ill do it if i play the Ork guy though...

[Marshal Wilhelm]

The main thing that annoys me about the Ork player i face is that he spreads his 30 strong squad out to the maximum 2 inch thingy to avoid blast/flame templates, but when he assaults he pushes them all up to within 2 inches.

 

 

I feel like a dick pointing out that you can only move each model 6 inches, but if hes going to spread them out to avoid casualties, i think i might have to soon.

Yeah, I come across this a lot to, but the leader of my gaming club won't out law it because he is a tyranid player and he likes doing it with gaunts...

 

He is in fact cheating, or breaking the rules to put it more mildly, whether deliberately or not.

If he is getting the benefit from reducing template deaths then he gets the hindrance from being able to get less Orks into the combat. Fair's fair.

 

You are not being a stooge at all. It is the rules and whether he is naive to what he is doing or not, is gaining an unfair advantage.

 

If he [or they] are prepared to move space their men 2" apart, then they can show the same care when making assault moves.

 

The leader of the gaming club doesn't have to outlaw anything. It is a rule, not something that is and unclear up for debate.

 

BBB pg 34 Moving Assault Models

"All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models."

 

BBB pg 11

"In his turn, a player may move any of his units - all of them if he wishes - up to their maximum movement distance."

 

Movement distance

"Infantry move up to six inches (6") in the Movement phase."

 

If they say something like 'you are being a killjoy, we just wanna have fun' then tell them to be consistent in following the rules. They are playing savvy when it suits them and then expect you to be okay with them be loose and easy when it gives them an advantage. That is hypocrisy. Boo!

[Mysticaria]

The main thing that annoys me about the Ork player i face is that he spreads his 30 strong squad out to the maximum 2 inch thingy to avoid blast/flame templates, but when he assaults he pushes them all up to within 2 inches.

 

 

I feel like a dick pointing out that you can only move each model 6 inches, but if hes going to spread them out to avoid casualties, i think i might have to soon.

Yeah, I come across this a lot to, but the leader of my gaming club won't out law it because he is a tyranid player and he likes doing it with gaunts...

 

He is in fact cheating, or breaking the rules to put it more mildly, whether deliberately or not.

If he is getting the benefit from reducing template deaths then he gets the hindrance from being able to get less Orks into the combat. Fair's fair.

Agree. Playing by some, but not all, of the rules is a great way to unbalance the system. In this case, it seems like it is making assaut hordes stronger and unbalancing your gaming environment. I would push to have the games run according to the rule book. It will probably make them a lot more balanced and enjoyable.

 

-Myst

[Ming]

I always want to see careful measurement by my opponent with his hordes, especially in assault phase. And it is perfectly reasonable to make sure your opponent is doing it. If not, you stand the chance of getting more attacks against you, and can lose. Your own careful tactics and measurements can be undone by opponents taking liberty with that little thing called distance. One of my pet peaves in 5th edition is that a large horde can take its casualties from the far back, out of range of your actual weapons. That mere small fact is one of the real "tactics" killers in the game for armies that have small units. Going back to the orks - a single 30-boy mob can spread out over 90 inches of linear distance...now that is a large roll of bubblewrap....

[ShinyRhino]

I finally got a game in against the list back before XMas. Tourney day.

I was nearly tabled, except for a lone Landspeeder.

The game was a Pitched Battle, Seize Ground. 5 objectives. One dead center, two in each deployment zone. I'd brought an all-fast Biker list led by Khan.

 

At deployment, I decided to go second.

Ghaz's trukk was an easy kill for my paired Typhoon speeders, obviously. But, it had already moved 19" forward in the first turn, and was almost into my deployment zone already.

The Boyz mobs were screened by 9 Kans. I didn't have the long-range anti-tank in a biker list to solve them, and bolters bounced off the 4+ cover save the Boyz got from the Kans.

I initially thought about Outflanking everything, but was relying on reserve rolls for my units to come in. If they came in too late, I ran the risk of having Orks blocking both edges of the board in a conga line, and losing all my biker units. Jump troops and speeders would have been fine, but that was only two units!

 

Kans are a total PITA to kill off without massed las or krak. Melta of any sort puts you dead square in charge range, where you do NOT want to be. A trio of attack bikes with multimeltas MIGHT take all three of a squadron down at once from 20+ inches, but are more vulnerable to the Rokkits the Kans pack than the Kans are to the multimeltas.

I actually killed more Kans with plasma guns than I did with anything else, mostly due to volume of shots and extended range.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

One of my pet peaves in 5th edition is that a large horde can take its casualties from the far back, out of range of your actual weapons. That mere small fact is one of the real "tactics" killers in the game for armies that have small units. Going back to the orks - a single 30-boy mob can spread out over 90 inches of linear distance...now that is a large roll of bubblewrap....

 

I don't think it is unfair, and I play MechTemplars and Tau, neither is a horde army. If you pit 200 points of, say, Sang guard, against 200 points of Boyz, yes the Boyz will still be attacking you with the full number of attacks and so mitigating your superior initiative, etc.

However, it is much easier to get 400 points of Sang Guard into combat against them and really mince them, then causing Fearless wounds, which the 6+ Boyz really drop to.

It should be quite hard for 400 points of Boyz to attack 200 points of Sang Guard.

 

As always, the horde is the easier and more forgiving army. The elite army has more potential and rewards the more thoughtful player. So it is all swings and roundabouts. Get 'lazy' with your Marines and you'll think the Orks are blessed with rules bonuses. Remain proactive and and it will be the Ork player saying your guys are op.

 

As for the 90" bubblewrap, assault them from either end ^_^

[Captain Idaho]

I think what the guys are thinking is unfair is the fact the Ork player is keeping all his Orks so far apart, which takes advantage of the silly cover rules of 5th edition, but when it comes to pile in moves and the like, the same fastituous Ork player is not measuring the 6" move but instead just moving everything in, thus garnering additional attacks.

 

As for taking on such a hoard list with an all biker list, it is always going to be tough because they have the numbers to lock you down, thus negating your mobility, whilst your own list can ill aford to make a single error.

 

Like you said, you lacked long range firepower to take down the Kans. This means with your Khan list you made two errors that could have cost you the game;

 

You should have taken 1st turn. You had the speed to do a refused flank and either hit his army piecemeal with your entire force, or relocate away from those big mobs. Plus the extra turns shooting in his deployment zone would have saved you firepower to ignore Ghazghull for a few turns.

 

Next, yes you should have out flanked with much of your force. The Ork player is using Killa Kans as a screen and your list doesn't have sufficient firepower to bring them down, therefore you needed to bypass his screen and hit them in the side/rear. This also would have cut down on the amount of Rokkit attacks you would have to endure until you had a chance to dictate where you commit.

[LardO'Blood]

The main thing that annoys me about the Ork player i face is that he spreads his 30 strong squad out to the maximum 2 inch thingy to avoid blast/flame templates, but when he assaults he pushes them all up to within 2 inches.

 

 

I feel like a dick pointing out that you can only move each model 6 inches, but if hes going to spread them out to avoid casualties, i think i might have to soon.

Yeah, I come across this a lot to, but the leader of my gaming club won't out law it because he is a tyranid player and he likes doing it with gaunts...

 

He is in fact cheating, or breaking the rules to put it more mildly, whether deliberately or not.

If he is getting the benefit from reducing template deaths then he gets the hindrance from being able to get less Orks into the combat. Fair's fair.

Agree. Playing by some, but not all, of the rules is a great way to unbalance the system. In this case, it seems like it is making assaut hordes stronger and unbalancing your gaming environment. I would push to have the games run according to the rule book. It will probably make them a lot more balanced and enjoyable.

 

-Myst

Yeah, I know it's cheating, but when 50% of the gaming group does it and 25% haven't read the rules yet, it's hard to make the person stop. :D

The other day I lost a game because a squad of ravenors rolled a four for their difficult terrain test to assault my tactical squad. He called me a spoil sport and the entire group got pissed at me for slowing down the game when I told him he couldn't assault my tactical squad 6" away because he has to go into base to base contact and he can only go 4"...

[breng77]

Just start shooting stuff 30" away with your bolters, and using large blast templates instead of small ones (and 10" templates for your large blasts if any). When they complain say well since measurement clearly does not matter in this game, I'm using my own measurement. Your group either needs to play by all of the rules or they may as well play by none of the rules.

[Captain Idaho]

Just start shooting stuff 30" away with your bolters, and using large blast templates instead of small ones (and 10" templates for your large blasts if any). When they complain say well since measurement clearly does not matter in this game, I'm using my own measurement. Your group either needs to play by all of the rules or they may as well play by none of the rules.

 

Agree. Sounds like people are being very unfair in this situation. I would rather have no-one to play than play against people who don't play properly to the extent it ruins my enjoyment of the game. After all, if you don't enjoy the game then what's the point playing?

[breng77]

Exactly, also if some one pulled that stuff with me, at any point in the game I would point it out, and if they started crying about it, I'd point out the rule, if they still would not agree, I'd pack up my stuff. Again, if close enough is good, Well a 2 on a 6 sided dice is close enough to a 3, so my marines are making their saves on a 2+. What that's not fair? Neither is cheating on distances. If the group is complaining about you slowing the game down, start picking your dice up really quick after you roll, so your opponent cannot see the result, and just roll all of them to wound, then tell him you wounded with all of them. If he complains, tell him he is just slowing the game down. It sounds to me like you really need to do one of 2 things. 1.) Get your group to go to a tournament or event outside your local group so they can get set straight by other people. 2.) Find a new group that is not going to cheat on the rules.

[Grey Mage]

Yeah, I know it's cheating, but when 50% of the gaming group does it and 25% haven't read the rules yet, it's hard to make the person stop. :P

The other day I lost a game because a squad of ravenors rolled a four for their difficult terrain test to assault my tactical squad. He called me a spoil sport and the entire group got pissed at me for slowing down the game when I told him he couldn't assault my tactical squad 6" away because he has to go into base to base contact and he can only go 4"...

Id simply say

 

"I didnt think youd want to have such a hollow victory, I mean its pretty worthless to win if we have to let you cheat like that dont you think?"

 

It they didnt think so Id let them win by concession.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Yeah, I know it's cheating, but when 50% of the gaming group does it and 25% haven't read the rules yet, it's hard to make the person stop. :P

The other day I lost a game because a squad of ravenors rolled a four for their difficult terrain test to assault my tactical squad. He called me a spoil sport and the entire group got pissed at me for slowing down the game when I told him he couldn't assault my tactical squad 6" away because he has to go into base to base contact and he can only go 4"...

 

Well it is fine if they do it to one another, they just don't get to do it to you :)

The 25% will learn the rules when playing you.

The 50% will cut that rubbish out. "No, the rules say this." They can huff and puff all they like. It is called being childish.

If they want to play intellectually-poor 40K by not following "the complicated and time consuming rules" then they really ought not to be finicky in placing their models to avoid blasts and templates, eh? They are being hypocrites.

 

It is almost like you are in a relationship with a physically abusive person. :P

'If you don't let us cheat, you are being a jerk'

' :eek how am I being a jerk?'

'You are slowing the game down, jerk.'

'But you guys line your large mobs of boyz 2" apart, how am I slowing down the game?'

'Don't back-answer us whilst we're giving you a dressing down, or we'll have to collectively sulk at you.... we're not joking, don't make us do it....'

 

Stand your ground. They'll either get a twinge of conscience and back down or they'll continue to be unpleasant. Can you actually enjoy playing against such people when they are happy to cheat and bully you?

 

Agree. Sounds like people are being very unfair in this situation. I would rather have no-one to play than play against people who don't play properly to the extent it ruins my enjoyment of the game. After all, if you don't enjoy the game then what's the point playing?

 

Yeah, it sounds horribly abusive by the group to me *extra sad face*