Idea for a DA Successor

[Brother Caleb]

After reading through the second Space Wolf omnibus, one book gave a clear example of how the DA hunt for the Fallen can put them at odds with other elements of the Imperium.

 

Would it be legit to have a successor chapter decide that what DA, and other successors, need most is to let go of the hunt and generate some good PR in the process? To do this they would convert the Ravenwing and Deathwing in to highly mobile defensive forces, and completely reshape the mission of the chapter to with a focus on defense of the Emperor's citizens. In a way, they would be taking a page from the BT by making their loyalty unquestionable, which would allow for some bending of the rules.

 

Thoughts?

[Ecritter]

It'd be a tough sell. The Angels of Absolution have a completely different view of the Fallen then any other Successor ... yet they still pursue them.

[soddinnutter]

Very possible.

 

The Secret is only entrusted to the Inner Circle of each chapter so its not like you would be convincing a whole chapter to give it up. Perhaps, being a successor and not the DA, half a dozen to a dozen nay know of the Fallen.

 

 

Why would they give it up? Do get ordered to let a world burn in chaos to follow another pointless hunt for Cypher. Is there dissension, rebellion, mutiny and coup in the ranks of the Astartes?

 

How would they deal with the hate of their parent and sibling chapters?

[Octavulg]

Two questions arise:

 

What lead them to give it up?

 

How did they stop the other Unforgiven from hauling their spleens out?

[Brother Caleb]

Two questions arise:

 

What lead them to give it up?

 

How did they stop the other Unforgiven from hauling their spleens out?

Basically I was thinking something to this effect.

 

A portion of, and eventually the entire, inner circle "realizes" a contradiction within the teachings of the DA, essentially struggling with this question: why is it wrong to put personal honor above duty in the context of the individual, but it is proper to put their parent chapter's honor above their chapter's duty to the Imperium. Instead of chasing the apparitions of former mistake, they seek their redemption by once again performing their duty to the exclusion of all else. Let the DA handle their own problems. Granted, the chapter wouldn't tell anyone about the Fallen.

 

With this in mind, the chapter focuses exclusively on defending the Imperium, which they do with as much fervor and determination as the Unforgiven hunt the Fallen. Perhaps, the Unforgiven tolerate the chapter because it continually proves its loyalty and generates a significant amount of good will throughout the Imperium, which provides a solid counterpoint to the typical view of the Unforgiven as secretive, aloof, and prone to cut and run.

 

I'm not really sure how close the DA chapters are, but it seems to me that if everyone is so secretive, how are the Unforgiven going to know that the chapter isn't hunting the Fallen? Even if asked about it, they could fudge some reports or straight lie.

 

If that fails, they could always hang out with the SW. The Wolves would do almost anything to ruffle some DA skirts. :D

 

Alternatively, I could have them become a fleet chapter and be loyal as far as the Imperium is concerned, but renegades with regard to the DA. However, this seems less feasible the more I think about it.

[Octavulg]

A portion of, and eventually the entire, inner circle "realizes" a contradiction within the teachings of the DA, essentially struggling with this question: why is it wrong to put personal honor above duty in the context of the individual, but it is proper to put their parent chapter's honor above their chapter's duty to the Imperium. Instead of chasing the apparitions of former mistake, they seek their redemption by once again performing their duty to the exclusion of all else. Let the DA handle their own problems. Granted, the chapter wouldn't tell anyone about the Fallen.

 

Ah. Same reason everyone else uses. :D

 

That's not a criticism. It's a good reason.

 

If that fails, they could always hang out with the SW. The Wolves would do almost anything to ruffle some DA skirts. tongue.gif

 

Please. Just because they're not hunting the Fallen doesn't mean they've lost all sense of propriety.

 

Alternatively, I could have them become a fleet chapter and be loyal as far as the Imperium is concerned, but renegades with regard to the DA. However, this seems less feasible the more I think about it.

 

Indeed. Best to remain somewhere nice and brightly lit.

[Brother Caleb]

I really like the Guardians of the Covenant, but I've been playing with a color scheme.

[SonofTerra]

I am by no means a pro when it comes to DA fluff, but an easy way out could be to have the few members of the chapter who know about the fall be killed.

 

I realize they probably wouldn't all be in the same place at the same time for this to happen, but perhaps roughly half or a third of the inner circle perished, and before their replacements could be taught of the fall the other members died as well?

 

Bad idea? probably, but an idea none the less

[Octavulg]

That's actually my excuse for why the Unforgiven don't come nosing around the Ice Lords - the training cadre was attacked, and the surviving members didn't seem to know anything about the Fallen. So the Unforgiven haven't asked, because how do you start that conversation?

[Brother Caleb]

I was planning on the inner circle maintaining the knowledge, but just rejecting the peer pressure to hunt. Who's going to be able to prove otherwise? It's not like at one of the Grand-Masters' meeting the head of the Angels of Absolution and the DA are going to ask, "Okay, how many Fallen have you brought to justice? I got 6 just this morning."

[Octavulg]

Why wouldn't they? That's one of the points of having meetings...

[Brother Caleb]

Why wouldn't they? That's one of the points of having meetings...

I guess my thought was that it wouldn't be specific enough. I imagine these meetings to be focused on the macro elements of the hunt. In that context my guy could just show up and sit in the back row and avoid eye contact. Besides, if he gets asked he could be vague.

 

Alternatively, my guy would just stop going and when questioned about his absence he would say that he had more immediate concerns. Or, perhaps he goes to the meetings intending to persuade he brothers of his point of view. Seeing his brothers forsaking their first duty so often would weigh on him, after all.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Why wouldn't they? That's one of the points of having meetings...

I guess my thought was that it wouldn't be specific enough. I imagine these meetings to be focused on the macro elements of the hunt. In that context my guy could just show up and sit in the back row and avoid eye contact. Besides, if he gets asked he could be vague.

 

Alternatively, my guy would just stop going and when questioned about his absence he would say that he had more immediate concerns. Or, perhaps he goes to the meetings intending to persuade he brothers of his point of view. Seeing his brothers forsaking their first duty so often would weigh on him, after all.

 

I can't see that working either way to be honest, you're more likely to get an "investigation" - if you know what I eman :tu: - by the Dark Angels or one of the other "old boys" to find out whats going on.

 

If you know the secret and don't do your part, then you become a liability - or so I would think.

[Brother Caleb]

Why wouldn't they? That's one of the points of having meetings...

I guess my thought was that it wouldn't be specific enough. I imagine these meetings to be focused on the macro elements of the hunt. In that context my guy could just show up and sit in the back row and avoid eye contact. Besides, if he gets asked he could be vague.

 

Alternatively, my guy would just stop going and when questioned about his absence he would say that he had more immediate concerns. Or, perhaps he goes to the meetings intending to persuade he brothers of his point of view. Seeing his brothers forsaking their first duty so often would weigh on him, after all.

 

I can't see that working either way to be honest, you're more likely to get an "investigation" - if you know what I eman :tu: - by the Dark Angels or one of the other "old boys" to find out whats going on.

 

If you know the secret and don't do your part, then you become a liability - or so I would think.

Great way for some good old sibling conflict. Perhaps, it will come to blows on occasion. Having to fight off a brother-chapter would solidify the chapter's resolve in its position because it shows the twisted perspective of those who would attack brother marines just to protect personal honor.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Why wouldn't they? That's one of the points of having meetings...

I guess my thought was that it wouldn't be specific enough. I imagine these meetings to be focused on the macro elements of the hunt. In that context my guy could just show up and sit in the back row and avoid eye contact. Besides, if he gets asked he could be vague.

 

Alternatively, my guy would just stop going and when questioned about his absence he would say that he had more immediate concerns. Or, perhaps he goes to the meetings intending to persuade he brothers of his point of view. Seeing his brothers forsaking their first duty so often would weigh on him, after all.

 

I can't see that working either way to be honest, you're more likely to get an "investigation" - if you know what I eman :tu: - by the Dark Angels or one of the other "old boys" to find out whats going on.

 

If you know the secret and don't do your part, then you become a liability - or so I would think.

Great way for some good old sibling conflict. Perhaps, it will come to blows on occasion. Having to fight off a brother-chapter would solidify the chapter's resolve in its position because it shows the twisted perspective of those who would attack brother marines just to protect personal honor.

 

You raise an interesting point; maybe for you Chapter the hunt is about tradition - they continue the hunt but not at the expense of their other duties and the continuation of that hunt is only - as I said - because of tradition and to honour their peers. Whereas for the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven it goes into deeper, darker, places than mere honour.

[NightrawenII]

I'm not really sure how close the DA chapters are, but it seems to me that if everyone is so secretive, how are the Unforgiven going to know that the chapter isn't hunting the Fallen? Even if asked about it, they could fudge some reports or straight lie.

The Unforgiven are practically Legion in everything but name. They hold meetings on the Rock to dispute their future actions, success/fail in the Hunt and stuff...

During that mess on the Vraks, the DA send one of their successors instead with attached Interrogator-Chaplain as the supervisor.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I'm not really sure how close the DA chapters are, but it seems to me that if everyone is so secretive, how are the Unforgiven going to know that the chapter isn't hunting the Fallen? Even if asked about it, they could fudge some reports or straight lie.

The Unforgiven are practically Legion in everything but name.

 

Gives me a brilliant SC idea :tu:

[Malthe]

Rather than sit in the back row and try not to get asked unpleasant questions, why don't your chapter step up and tell it as it is?

"Seeking vengeance and redemption is all well and good, but not when it interferes with your duty, you should all be ashamed, very ashamed!"

Then your chapter master would probably not be invited to the next meeting and you'd have made as clean a break as possible.

Of course this would lead to tons of trouble, but hey, that's what makes IAs interesting!

 

Perhaps you could go have a look at the Brazen Claws IA, in the Librarium, it has a somewhat related theme of breaking with the established (their parent legion the Iron Hands, that is)?

It's quite a good read anyways ;)

 

Best of luck!

[Brother Caleb]

Why wouldn't they? That's one of the points of having meetings...

I guess my thought was that it wouldn't be specific enough. I imagine these meetings to be focused on the macro elements of the hunt. In that context my guy could just show up and sit in the back row and avoid eye contact. Besides, if he gets asked he could be vague.

 

Alternatively, my guy would just stop going and when questioned about his absence he would say that he had more immediate concerns. Or, perhaps he goes to the meetings intending to persuade he brothers of his point of view. Seeing his brothers forsaking their first duty so often would weigh on him, after all.

 

I can't see that working either way to be honest, you're more likely to get an "investigation" - if you know what I eman :tu: - by the Dark Angels or one of the other "old boys" to find out whats going on.

 

If you know the secret and don't do your part, then you become a liability - or so I would think.

Great way for some good old sibling conflict. Perhaps, it will come to blows on occasion. Having to fight off a brother-chapter would solidify the chapter's resolve in its position because it shows the twisted perspective of those who would attack brother marines just to protect personal honor.

 

You raise an interesting point; maybe for you Chapter the hunt is about tradition - they continue the hunt but not at the expense of their other duties and the continuation of that hunt is only - as I said - because of tradition and to honour their peers. Whereas for the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven it goes into deeper, darker, places than mere honour.

I have a very cursory understanding of the DA fluff in this area. What are these "deeper, darker, places" you speak of? It is my understanding that hunting the Fallen is simply to prevent anyone from knowing what happened during the Heresy. More insight would be appreciated.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Why wouldn't they? That's one of the points of having meetings...

I guess my thought was that it wouldn't be specific enough. I imagine these meetings to be focused on the macro elements of the hunt. In that context my guy could just show up and sit in the back row and avoid eye contact. Besides, if he gets asked he could be vague.

 

Alternatively, my guy would just stop going and when questioned about his absence he would say that he had more immediate concerns. Or, perhaps he goes to the meetings intending to persuade he brothers of his point of view. Seeing his brothers forsaking their first duty so often would weigh on him, after all.

 

I can't see that working either way to be honest, you're more likely to get an "investigation" - if you know what I eman :jaw: - by the Dark Angels or one of the other "old boys" to find out whats going on.

 

If you know the secret and don't do your part, then you become a liability - or so I would think.

Great way for some good old sibling conflict. Perhaps, it will come to blows on occasion. Having to fight off a brother-chapter would solidify the chapter's resolve in its position because it shows the twisted perspective of those who would attack brother marines just to protect personal honor.

 

You raise an interesting point; maybe for you Chapter the hunt is about tradition - they continue the hunt but not at the expense of their other duties and the continuation of that hunt is only - as I said - because of tradition and to honour their peers. Whereas for the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven it goes into deeper, darker, places than mere honour.

I have a very cursory understanding of the DA fluff in this area. What are these "deeper, darker, places" you speak of? It is my understanding that hunting the Fallen is simply to prevent anyone from knowing what happened during the Heresy. More insight would be appreciated.

 

Well that is a deeper, darker, reason to hunt the Fallen than pure honour isn't it? The potential is there for the Dark Angels and all their successors to be purged if the secret is out - so they will go to any lengths to both capture the Fallen and prevent that secret from outing.

 

Counterpoint that with what I said about it being tradition for your Chapter; "we've always done it" or "this is how we honour our father/brothers".

 

EDIT: Quote Train! Choo Choo!!!

[Ecritter]

The deeper darker place as I see it is to keep others from knowing their secret shame.

[Brother Caleb]

Why wouldn't they? That's one of the points of having meetings...

I guess my thought was that it wouldn't be specific enough. I imagine these meetings to be focused on the macro elements of the hunt. In that context my guy could just show up and sit in the back row and avoid eye contact. Besides, if he gets asked he could be vague.

 

Alternatively, my guy would just stop going and when questioned about his absence he would say that he had more immediate concerns. Or, perhaps he goes to the meetings intending to persuade he brothers of his point of view. Seeing his brothers forsaking their first duty so often would weigh on him, after all.

 

I can't see that working either way to be honest, you're more likely to get an "investigation" - if you know what I eman :P - by the Dark Angels or one of the other "old boys" to find out whats going on.

 

If you know the secret and don't do your part, then you become a liability - or so I would think.

Great way for some good old sibling conflict. Perhaps, it will come to blows on occasion. Having to fight off a brother-chapter would solidify the chapter's resolve in its position because it shows the twisted perspective of those who would attack brother marines just to protect personal honor.

 

You raise an interesting point; maybe for you Chapter the hunt is about tradition - they continue the hunt but not at the expense of their other duties and the continuation of that hunt is only - as I said - because of tradition and to honour their peers. Whereas for the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven it goes into deeper, darker, places than mere honour.

I have a very cursory understanding of the DA fluff in this area. What are these "deeper, darker, places" you speak of? It is my understanding that hunting the Fallen is simply to prevent anyone from knowing what happened during the Heresy. More insight would be appreciated.

 

Well that is a deeper, darker, reason to hunt the Fallen than pure honour isn't it? The potential is there for the Dark Angels and all their successors to be purged if the secret is out - so they will go to any lengths to both capture the Fallen and prevent that secret from outing.

 

Counterpoint that with what I said about it being tradition for your Chapter; "we've always done it" or "this is how we honour our father/brothers".

 

EDIT: Quote Train! Choo Choo!!!

Considering all of the grimdark motivations displayed in the 40K verse, that seems pretty rainbows and sunshine. But, maybe that's just me.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Considering all of the grimdark motivations displayed in the 40K verse, that seems pretty rainbows and sunshine. But, maybe that's just me.

 

But you have to consider it in terms of the Dark Angels and their Successors - their greatest purpose is to hunt the Fallen, but perhaps it is also their greatest curse because who do they hunt when the Fallen are no more? What purpose then for ones who strived so hard in one direction?

 

Maybe your Chapter look beyond the Hunt because they see where it will inevitably end?

[Brother Caleb]

Considering all of the grimdark motivations displayed in the 40K verse, that seems pretty rainbows and sunshine. But, maybe that's just me.

 

But you have to consider it in terms of the Dark Angels and their Successors - their greatest purpose is to hunt the Fallen, but perhaps it is also their greatest curse because who do they hunt when the Fallen are no more? What purpose then for ones who strived so hard in one direction?

That's what I've never understood about the DA. The greatest purpose of any chapter is supposed to be fighting the enemies of the Imperium. While other things may matter to the chapter, or even hold a special place of reverence, how can it justify forsaking the reason it was created?

 

Perhaps, my chapter might feel the weight of responsibility to make up for their brother's mistake. If so, it often acts to replace their brothers on the front lines when they chose to forsake their duty to chase the Fallen. Obviously this would be significantly limited because of their limited numbers compared to total numbers of their brother chapters. They would refit their ravenwing/deathwing to fulfill this role in terms of long range or quick deployment.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Considering all of the grimdark motivations displayed in the 40K verse, that seems pretty rainbows and sunshine. But, maybe that's just me.

 

But you have to consider it in terms of the Dark Angels and their Successors - their greatest purpose is to hunt the Fallen, but perhaps it is also their greatest curse because who do they hunt when the Fallen are no more? What purpose then for ones who strived so hard in one direction?

That's what I've never understood about the DA. The greatest purpose of any chapter is supposed to be fighting the enemies of the Imperium. While other things may matter to the chapter, or even hold a special place of reverence, how can it justify forsaking the reason it was created?

 

Perhaps, my chapter might feel the weight of responsibility to make up for their brother's mistake. If so, it often acts to replace their brothers on the front lines when they chose to forsake their duty to chase the Fallen. Obviously this would be significantly limited because of their limited numbers compared to total numbers of their brother chapters. They would refit their ravenwing/deathwing to fulfill this role in terms of long range or quick deployment.

 

 

To sum it up using a pithy quote:

 

How can we claim righteousness over those we would hunt, if in it's darkest hour we turn our backs on our duty to the Emperor? In defence of the Imperium against all its foes do we honour the Lion and the Emperor.