IC moving while leaving a unit

[nurglez]

I can see how it is being taken to mean that the IC must leave at the slowest speed, but I disagree with the intent. If a chaos lord with wings was in a landraider with a squad of khorne berzerkers, and then dismounted via a different exit (thus de attached from the squad), would you still make him move only 6 inches?

 

I feel that the must move at the slowest speed is only while the character is attached to and part of the squad, if he/she decides to leave they can move at their normal speed.

[dswanick]

Agreed, this is, I think, the heart of the debate. RAI = as you described, as I play, and as GC01 argues - If your intent is to detach then move him as detached.

What we can not yet show is that RAW supports this RAI assessment.

[greatcrusade08]

the only thing that suggest you cant (by RAW) is this quote that says you have to move at the slowest speed.. but as i have stated over and over again, that rule specifically states its for units and ICs that stay together.

it therefore has no bearing on this rules query and the ICs are fre to move thier full movement.

 

its that simple

[dswanick]

• While an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together.

You are arguing that the units must move at the speed of the slowest if they stay together but the Rule As Written states while they stay together.

But that is exactly the problem, aren't they together until the IC detaches? I've showed that logically it probably isn't that they detach at the start of every turn and only reattach at the end of turn check.

When does detachment occur? You are arguing that detachment happens when you have the intent to detach but RAW only says that your intent to detach can affect the coherency part of the equation. It doesn't also, specifically, include the movement speed portion of the prohibition. Interpreting it to do so is RAI (Rule As Interpreted and/or Rule As Intended).

An independent character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of coherency distance with it.

This implies that the detachment happens during the movement phase, and after the IC has ended his movement outside of 2" from the unit. But once his move is concluded and the detachment occurs it is too late to go back and move him further than what he was allowed to move given the speed of the slowest unit member.

[shatter]

"while an [iC] is part of a unit, he must obey usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together."

 

1 "While an [iC] is part of a unit," - In coherency already

2 "he must obey usual coherency rules." - Must stay in coherency.

3 "The combined unit" - IC & squad as a single unit

4 "moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model" - If 1 satisfied, 3 moves at slowest model speed obeying 2

5 "while they stay together." - out of coherency means IC leaving rule begins (below), 2 fails, 3 fails and therefore 4 fails... as they're no longer combined!

 

"An independent character can leave a unit during the movement phase by moving out of coherency with it"

-No mention of speed limit, ergo normal movement used.

 

That's the RAW.

[greatcrusade08]

^^this^^

[dswanick]

5 "while they stay together." - out of coherency means IC leaving rule begins (below), 2 fails, 3 fails and therefore 4 fails... as they're no longer combined!

Here's the kicker - while they stay together. While is a durational word, not conditional. It's not true unless false, but true so long as the condition is met. You are still interpreting the rule to mean that the intent to detach is sufficient to effect a detachment when the rule states that it is the movement out of coherency that effects the detachment. Until the IC has completed his move out of coherency, they are still together. The together ends when the IC has completed it's move out of coherency. Which is even clearer in the German version of the rule quoted earlier that specifies the test occurs at the end of the ICs movement.

 

Together

-Attached

-Coherent

-Move at the speed of the slowest

Intent to detach

-Allowed to move out of coherency

Move out of Coherency

-Detached from unit

-May move at whatever speed is normal for the IC, no longer limited by the units movement speed. But the unit has completed it's move, so it can't move further until it's next movement phase. Anything else is RAI.

[shatter]

*snip*

You are still interpreting the rule to mean that the intent to detach is sufficient to effect a detachment when the rule states that it is the movement out of coherency that effects the detachment.

*snip*

 

Yes and no. Simply put, the rule for leaving a unit is not a subset of the move at slowest speed rule. It is totally separate and is indeed begun instantly by intent (to use leaving a unit rule).

 

*snip*

it is the movement out of coherency that effects the detachment.

*snip*

 

No, it's the result of following the leaving a unit rule properly. Breaking coherency is just an instructed component.

 

I assert it's not correct to mix two rules.

[greatcrusade08]

i agree with shatter, its not correct to merge the two rules.. the rule allowing the IC to leave the unit says he may move away, but does not limit his movement in the same way as if he were remaining with the unit.

[dswanick]

*snip*

You are still interpreting the rule to mean that the intent to detach is sufficient to effect a detachment when the rule states that it is the movement out of coherency that effects the detachment.

*snip*

 

Yes and no. Simply put, the rule for leaving a unit is not a subset of the move at slowest speed rule. It is totally separate and is indeed begun instantly by intent (to use leaving a unit rule).

 

*snip*

it is the movement out of coherency that effects the detachment.

*snip*

 

No, it's the result of following the leaving a unit rule properly. Breaking coherency is just an instructed component.

 

I assert it's not correct to mix two rules.

Point #1 - I'm not sure I follow your point here. No (leaving the unit) is not a subset of (move at the slowest speed). nor is it a subset of (coherency), (difficult terrain), (fallback).

Point #2 - What are the rules to properly leave a unit. The book says you must move out of coherency with the unit. It doesn't say you must have to intent to do so. It says you must do so. Until the move is accomplished you are still nbound by all the restrictions imposed on you, except (coherency) which has been set aside by the rule in question. But an IC who is in a unit which is currently falling back and surrounded by difficult terrain would have to contend with all those movement restrictions, the IC is only given permission to ignore (coherency) when (leaving a unit). It would still have to contend with any other special circumstance it is bound by such as those listed (move speed), (difficult terrain), (falling back) because this rule doesn't give permission to ignore those restrictions.

 

Look, I've read and re-read these rules 'til I can't look at them anymore. I understand where you guys are coming from, and as I've said multiple times before - You're way is the way I play the game, because that is clearly the intent. Nothing you guys have said, however, has convinced me that the RAW is anything other than what I've read and argued in this thread. The RAW sucks, but the RAW is very clear.

 

++ Edited out inappropriate image. I. ++

[greatcrusade08]

Until the move is accomplished you are still nbound by all the restrictions imposed on you, except (coherency) which has been set aside by the rule in question.

 

The RAW is clear but not the way your saying, just becuase youve read the rulebook "so many times" doesnt mean your interpretation is correct.

The rule does NOT allow you to break coherancy, this is a fallacy, moving out of coherancy is merely the mechanic for leaving the unit.. if it was breaking coherancy he would still be with the unit.

The rule your using to stand fast to this RAW viewpoint cannot cover an IC who moves away from a unit.. forget about intent for a minute.

 

if an IC moves away from a unit he cannot be held to a set of rules that requires to to stay with the unit

 

While an independent character is part of a unit, he must obey the usual coherency rules. The combined unit moves and assaults at the speed of the slowest model while they stay together.

 

it doesnt matter if they are together at the beggining of the turn or whether the check is made at the end of the turn, if the IC is moving away from the unit, the IC and unit are not staying together..

if, maybe or whiles dont come into it.

 

edit: by ignoring the fact that this rule doesnt apply to ICs leaving the unit means that ICs can never truelly leave the unit.. the two rules are clearly seperate covering seperate events.

 

The first quote above is the one your swinging like a club at all our arguments.. says that an IC MUST obey movement rules and coherancy.. however the rule for an IC leaving a unit only says he can leave the unit by moving out of coherancy.. if the first quote is a blanket rule the second becomes obsolete and the IC is stuck with his unit.. becuase he isnt allowed to break coherancy...

see what im getting at... the two rules are mutually exclusive..

therefore the only rule you obey when leaving the unit is the rule that covers leaving the unit...

therfore he can move his maximum distance, and all the arguments about when the 'unit checks' are made can be ignored

[Isiah]

Not sure I see the problem here. If an IC wants to leave a unit he is not restricted to move at the speed of the slowest model – he can just move whatever speed he legally can (with his jp for instance) and end his movement more than 2" away from the unit he was once attached to.

 

There is no speed restriction that I can see that he must follow if he intends to leave the unit during a particular movement phase.

 

But if he intends to stay with the unit – he must move and assault at the rate of the slowest model.

[bap2703]

Despite being late I wanted to add something here.

By debating this question somewhere else I arrived to the conclusion that the IC cannot move faster than the unit he was in.

Arguments were :

- ICs leave a unit when not in coherency with the unit

- coherency is checked when the unit has finished its movement

- So the only moment when an IC can detach is when coherency is checked = when the unit as finished its movement

 

 

I can add that if you don't do it like this and allow the IC to move faster it allows for some strange moves like assaulting further than 12" for standard infantry.

Example :

Green tokens are members of the unit I want to assault. Blue unit is my infantry squad. Pink is my IC with jump pack. The dark blue area represent 6" and 12" distances from the target. As you can see the unit is out of the 12" range and will normally not be able to assault the green unit.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1156/debut.png

 

IC leaves the unit, using his jetpack, by moving more than 2" from his former unit. The IC is in the 6" of the green unit and will be able to assault it.

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/677/mouvement1.png

 

Now the blue unit moves 6" and arrives in the 2" of the IC. They join and make one unit... which is in the 6" of the opponent, able to assault it.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9080/mouvement2.png

 

 

This kind of move is only possible if the IC is allowed to move faster than the unit the turn he wants to leave it.

[greatcrusade08]

thats correct an IC may move his full movement when moving away from the unit.

its simple.

 

The rule which states he moves at the slowest speed only applies if the IC "stays" with the unit, its plain black and white ans argued above a million times.

if the IC splits from the unit, regardless of when that check is made then he isnt stayin with the unit.. and therefore the rule doesnt apply.

The rule whcih states he may leave the unit (by moving out of coherancy) doesnt give a limit on movement.

 

people are 'mixing' the two rules but as ive already said the two rules cannot be mixed as they contradict one another

if the Ic stays with the unit he moves at slowest speed, if he moves away he can move his maximum

[BOBMAKENZIE]

I thought the whole point was that things like that were possible. He can try and move away and fall short and then be forced back into the unit at the end of his movement if you dont back the other unit off. A good example is Mega Armoured warbosses because they benefit from a third Difficult Terrain Dice.

[Ming]

Interesting circular thread. About something I've only seen rarely if ever.

 

Regardless.

 

An IC declares to leave a unit and can only do so in the movement phase. Never in assault or other phases unless it is involuntary.

 

If I saw a player jumping an IC ahead of a unit (say 12 inches from the back) and the unit then moves forward to still be coherent with it...so the IC is now ahead...and essentially violates the rule (cartoon above)...I'd be all over him for cheating - essentially the IC never left the unit, and thus the player did cheat. Somebody is gonna get a dice in the eye.

 

As per the OP, if a termie unit with Shrike did (pregame) infiltrate forward on turn 1, yes, Shrike can separate as normal in the movement phase and go off to do something different. If they outflank, no, as they need his benefit to come on the board and that need lasts the entire movement phase. Since you cannot split away in the assault phase, they have to stay together until the end of that turn.

 

Gray area for me on issues caused by involuntary separation. In an easy way to resolve it: Mek with Shokk Attack Gun is an IC attached to some Lootas. He rolls badly and fires himself (involuntarily) through his own gun to now be X distance away, in base to base assault with the target unit. The lootas simultaneously complete their shooting on that unit. The lootas are now separate from the IC at this instant, and do not (in the assault phase) try to move 6-inches towards the mek and his base-to-base enemies. Because it is at instant speed, they also do not stop firing just because the mek is now BTB. I guess similarly this would apply to spells or abilities that pluck ICs out of other units.