Thunderfire Cannons

[Br0ther Rafen]

Hi guys

I just wanted to start a tactica based on the Thunderfire Cannon. I know that it is fielded very rarely by most people, But I don't know why. For 100 points you can get a Techmarine with a servo harness for free along with a gun which can put out a punishing amount of S6 AP5 blast templates, or can alternate to ignore cover, or even slow down powerful biker units and

Vehicles with Difficult terrain tests and Dangerous Terrain Tests which can kill them.

While it is very fragile, if you park it into some ruins the marine gets a 2+/3++ at range, and the gun itself will get an obscured cover save as well, making it difficult to shift. And, on big boards, you can tame advantage of it's large range of 60", leaving it out of range for all of the nasty stuff nowadays which have a maximum range of 48".

Could someone please clarify why it's so bad? I know that on smaller boards it will get :tu: in half a second, but on a 4x5-6 board, it is very safe from enemy retribution for a turn or 2.

Any thoughts?

Rafen.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I'm not an expert, but the main drawback is how fragile the unit can be and this is what most people look at when considering it.

[greatcrusade08]

So T-fire cannons..

 

first off i run two of the little beauties.. and whilst i understand peoples reserves about its weaknesses in the right list they are largely unfounded.

 

as you said the techmarine has 2+ save with flamer and twin linked plasma pistol, with the artillery rules every 1in3 shots goes his way, which has saved me from missiles before now on several occasions.

if possible you put the cannon in cover in the rear, use the larger range and cover to negate alot of enemy fire.. the biggest threats ive found are assault cannons with high number of hihg strenght shots meaning youll probably lose the cannon..

 

t-fires work well in my list as the bolster ruins combines with my snipers really well, also my play style is very aggressive which means my opponent doesnt usually get the chance to take a few heavy weapon shots at the cannon.

you have to use target priority to your own ends with them.

 

as for shooting the 3 different types of shell are just fantastic, the S6 AP5 shot is my personal fave wounding MEQ on a 2+.

a good tactic, one that i abuse as often as possible is to crack opne a transport and hit the bundled out survivors (all bunched together) with the templates.. usually causing in the region of 15-25 wounds.

This also means unit leaders and special weapons guys have to take saving throws too.. which combined with my Telion usually results in enemy squads having thier teeth removed before meeting my units in assault.

 

The S5 AP6 shot is good for ignoring cover saves, its great against orks and IG or kroot etc, but useless on anything that has a better armour save than would get cover save for.. i find lootas screened by grots a good target for this shell.

 

the S4 AP- tremor shot i rarely use, on big squads of bikes its a good plan, also if ive no other shots available ill use it on a vehilce in hopes i immobilise it or prevent the enemy from moving it for a turn... stationary vehicles hate scouts with grenades :P

 

generally i lose the cannon before the crew, which has the added bonus of giving me a half decent IC who can join other squads for a couple extra powerfist attacks..

His cc abilites and high armour save means anything other than a PW/PF will get swatted if they charge the cannon..

i was once accosated by 5 ripper swarms, who failed to kill the techmarine, he squashed one with his fist attacks and ran the rest down..

[RIGHT-Titan]

GC08 you play exclusively scouts right?

 

What point levels do you usually play at when you're fielding two Tfire cannons?

[greatcrusade08]

GC08 you play exclusively scouts right?

 

What point levels do you usually play at when you're fielding two Tfire cannons?

 

1500 and/or 1750.. if its less than 1250 i usually drop to one

[Jackelope King]

Could someone please clarify why it's so bad? I know that on smaller boards it will get :tu: in half a second, but on a 4x5-6 board, it is very safe from enemy retribution for a turn or 2.

Any thoughts?

Rafen.

The firepower's pretty nice. As is the versatility.

 

However, it has two crippling disadvantages. The first is the Artillery Rules, which make it absurdly weak. If you don't get any ruins in your deployment zone, it's really in trouble. Artillery rules mean the vehicle dies to a glancing hit, and has AV10 all around. And with its crew just being a Tech-Marine, it doesn't enjoy any of a vehicle's advantages in durability against anti-infantry firepower, and has no protection from the vehicle damage chart. Big strike against it: in an edition where vehicles are tough, it doesn't get any of the benefits that almost every other vehicle gets. A barrage of S4 shots is fairly likely to kill it in one volley.

 

The other is another part of the artillery rules, which denies it mobility. It moves like an infantryman with a heavy weapon. And the fact that it still needs to get cover like a vehicle means that it has the worst of both worlds. It's slow, it's weak. And it'll only be in very rare scenarios that you'll be able to take advantage of all 60" of that range and still have good fire-lanes and have good cover on a regulation 6'x4' board. In an all-comers tournament list, you're not going to be able to deploy terrain, and ruins aren't going to be all that common in that perfect spot for you to bolster and get a 2+ or 3+ cover save for your vehicle.

 

It's last real problem is that it competes with really solid heavy support choices for slots. A tank like the Predator, for instance, has fantastic durability and pretty nice firepower for 15 points less (the Predator is weaker slightly against exposed light infantry, infantry in cover, or fast elements like bikers, but also more effective against MCs and light vehicles and is FAR more survivable). And infantry aren't really going to be exposed early in the game, when the Thunderfire is alive (things will still likely be mech'd up).

 

All told, I would almost never recommend a Thunderfire Cannon for an all-comers, competitive list. There are simply many better choices in the Heavy Support slot that are more valuable in an all-comers tournament environment. I'm on the record for not being much of a fan of Whirlwinds or Vindicators either, but I like both of those better than the Thunderfire.

 

Now if GW fixes the Artillery rules some day, and the Thunderfire Cannon starts being made from sterner stuff, I'd give it a second look, because the firepower's quite nice.

[greatcrusade08]

All told, I would almost never recommend a Thunderfire Cannon for an all-comers, competitive list.

 

This i think is the common opinion towards the thunderfire, which i think is a mistake... it is awesome in the right list

[breng77]

This i think is the common opinion towards the thunderfire, which i think is a mistake... it is awesome in the right list

 

And against the right list. I have only faced one once. I was playing Deathwing, and I simply was not scared of its abilities (I don't think it killed one terminator). Against Mech IG it is not that scary as everything is armor 12 and so the best you can do is glance etc. I think the lack of mobility is what really hurts this unit. If it could move and fire it would be worth it.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

All told, I would almost never recommend a Thunderfire Cannon for an all-comers, competitive list.

 

This i think is the common opinion towards the thunderfire, which i think is a mistake... it is awesome in the right list

 

Same can be said of many units.

[greatcrusade08]

And against the right list. I have only faced one once. I was playing Deathwing, and I simply was not scared of its abilities (I don't think it killed one terminator). Against Mech IG it is not that scary as everything is armor 12 and so the best you can do is glance etc. I think the lack of mobility is what really hurts this unit. If it could move and fire it would be worth it.

 

on two seperate occasions ive wiped out a 5 man termy squad with these things.. especially if you catch them on the deepstrike.. cause enough wounds, they will roll some ones...

dont forget it has 3 ammo types, so anything you cant kill you can count as being in dangerous terrain (vehicle wise), you can ignore cover for troops.. it just has soo many uses..

[Jackelope King]

on two seperate occasions ive wiped out a 5 man termy squad with these things

Not a swipe or an attack at your, GC, but this is an important point that I think underscores a lot of discussion about list-building and strategy:

 

What's your sample-size? How many times did you wipe out a five-man terminator squad using a thunderfire cannon out of how many attempts? What is the most common result?

 

What you're describing is a Hail Mary pass (link included for you international folks out there): you tossed the ball out there and said a prayer. (Note that in this case, it might not have been a desperation play.) The odds are firmly against this being reliably repeated: Terminators have big, fat bases and can be stretched out 2" apart, meaning you're unlikely to score a lot of wounds on them in many cases, and their good saves will probably cut down on unsaved wounds even more. Just as American football teams don't build playbooks around the Hail Mary pass, neither should 40k players build lists around "This one time I totally nuked this unit with that unit!" I've gunned down Daemon Princes with Kroot, but I certainly don't tout Kroot as a deadly shooting unit in my Tau army, because my Crisis Suits are much more reliably deadly in shooting.

 

Just because something worked "this one time" doesn't mean that building a Tactica around it is wise. Aim for reliability in your list-design.

 

/end tangent.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

What you're describing is a Hail Mary pass (link included for you international folks out there): you tossed the ball out there and said a prayer.

 

Can I describe him as Brett Frave in this analogy, pretty please?

[Jackelope King]

Can I describe him as Brett Frave in this analogy, pretty please?

GC hasn't retired once, to my knowledge, let alone fifty bazillion and a half times :jaw:

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Can I describe him as Brett Frave in this analogy, pretty please?

GC hasn't retired once, to my knowledge, let alone fifty bazillion and a half times :jaw:

 

I still think it works, in my own strange way.

[greatcrusade08]

on the deepstrike all bases can be covered with the small template.. ive shot at such units 4 times (to my knowledge), wiping the out twice and causing 2 and 3 deaths on the others respectively..

my point was no to say they will kill 5 termies but to say that its possible

[Captain Idaho]

I rate Thunderfires is the right list. They don't fit mine but a Scout list or a list with some footslogging elements they become alot more useful. I think it is worthwhile ensuring there are some other targets to distract opponents if you have one (or more). Light vehicles like Landspeeders or bikers etc all suck in the limited long range firepower in most players lists.

[greatcrusade08]

the only negative i have is that they suck on DoW missions...

[McFisty]

I would like to add that I used to play with Thunderfire cannons in every list for quite some time after 5th Ed. came out. I quit using them for one simple reason, they never survived the first turn. Once my opponents had been on the receiving end of this cannon they knew that it was priority number one in every game thereafter. If I went first then I got to shoot it once before it was destroyed. If my opponent went first then I never got to shoot it at all. In most of these games it was deployed in ruins and got the 3++ cover save but it still got pwned every time. I am not sure if the rest of my list was balanced enough to provide other more appropriate targets but in any case the Thunderfire cannon is too slow and fragile to be a valid option in my opinion. Heaven help you in you have a Dawn of War mission, the turn this thing arrives it can't even shoot. Sure, this thing dishes out enough pain to make the baby Jesus cry but it also goes down faster than a dress on prom night. I hope my two cents worth helps.

 

For The Emperor,

 

McFisty

[Tangamarine]

The thing is, if they knew that it was that bad, I personally would welcome them to direct the majority of their firepower at it, that's less going towards, a landraider, with combat termies, 2 vindicators and 3 land speeders. The key to its survival is multiple threats. I will enjoy using the sub terrain shells on jump infantry and bikes.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I'm the only person in my gaming group who owns one much less fields it -- a fellow SM player once asked me what it does -- and its only rare that mine dies quickly. The trick is that you need to have bigger, badder targets that folks will fixate on instead. Land Raiders filled the role for me, and sticking it in a bolstered ruin mmakes it a pain to kill from range, which is always a bonus.

[greatcrusade08]

with the exception of DOW games my t-fires have never been killed first turn.. usually its turn 3 when they get enough attention to kill them, although with my dice rolls i occasionally fail a save turn two..

 

its all in the usage, i run two so that i have a back up should one die.. i also try to tie up any enemy units that have the range and ability to take them down, failing that i give them juicier targets.

Whats more i always try and get them working from turn one. If my opponent is meched it makes it easier as one rhino isnt hard to kill, when they disembark i then use the fact they are huddled together to my advatage and inflict over 20 wounds on them.

 

one such round of shooting is more than enough to warrant thier inclusion, i usually get two from them at least.. ive had several games where both cannons have survived the whole game!

[Br0ther Rafen]

One thing that I forgot to mention is that Thunderfires also synergy to work to maximum potential. Without this, it can't do much against transports or scary targets. An example if this is this one time when my friend was playing Eldar and he had a Banshee Deathstar unit with a Farseer in a wave serpent. Using a Cyclone, I poped it with an explosion and then kill the squad entirely with my Thunderfire, including the Farseer because of I'd. And this happens quite often. I pop a transport, and my Tfire does the rest, wether its a deathstar or something squishy.

Also, GC08 and others have made very valid points, and Dvorn has the right idea with the multiple target thing. I use Terminators and they usually draw fire while my Tfire kills them off.

[Meatman]

the only negative i have is that they suck on DoW missions...

 

 

Dawn of war missions just generally sucks.

 

 

I don't use them but I have seen GC08 use them to quite devestating effects. With the sheer number of scouts to the face that he applies, the thunderfires really are at the back of your mind. However my cheap 5 man scout squad with power weapon killed the techmarine using it eventually.

 

Not denying that they are fragile, but they are extremely powerful is used correctly.

[Hellios]

One thing that I forgot to mention is that Thunderfires also synergy to work to maximum potential. Without this, it can't do much against transports or scary targets. An example if this is this one time when my friend was playing Eldar and he had a Banshee Deathstar unit with a Farseer in a wave serpent. Using a Cyclone, I poped it with an explosion and then kill the squad entirely with my Thunderfire, including the Farseer because of I'd. And this happens quite often. I pop a transport, and my Tfire does the rest, wether its a deathstar or something squishy.

Also, GC08 and others have made very valid points, and Dvorn has the right idea with the multiple target thing. I use Terminators and they usually draw fire while my Tfire kills them off.

 

He is doing it right Banshees are not Deathstar :D they are awesome but even 10 Banshees isn't a deathstar unit :)

[waaanial00]

Because noone has mentioned these two points I will do so (been a long time supporter of the thunderfire cannon)

 

1) You dont always have to shoot the cannon! Its a mistake I have seen someone else use in the past, the enemy is right at their door and instead of flaming and plasma they went for the templates, also I have seen someone completely forego shooting just because they moved even when they were within pistol range.

 

The Techmarine is an active part of the unit, if you are lucky enough to keep him if the thing dies he can actually wreck some havoc. I wont bother to put my extreme example as someone would ask me about sampling sizes but its more about knowing the capabilities and using its potential rather than statistical averages and such like. Needless to say I dont rate him as useless and you shouldnt write it off just because the cannon is dead.

 

2) The tremor shells, for me, are more about movement denial rather than actually killing. People get too hung up on winning through maximum killing per turn, which is not tactical thats just throwing dice. Tactically I have more uses of stopping a unit of bikes/jetbikes not boosting across the table rather than counting my hopes on a bunch of 1's to kill them.

 

Still I wont get drawn into a pointless internet debate about why it is so "bad", its only "bad" if you want are expecting rock solid tank which laughs in the face of damage and has all the movement in the world. If you are expecting this of a mobile and slightly fragile artillery piece then you are doomed to failure in the first place. Approach things with your eyes open and half a brain as to somethings true capabilities and you wont go wrong.

 

It frustrates me that people still spout rubbish like "it breaks in even a light breeze", if you believe that then you are a fool. It is a vehicle with AV10, it can go in cover, it can sometimes make that cover give a better save and the hits are randomised between itself and the techmarine who is wearing artificer armour. It is 100 points, its never going to carry your army for you so take it with the knowledge that on turn 3 when/if it perishes its likely drawn enough fire and given enough pain that your army as a whole has profited.

 

As for comparing the predator to it, AV13 vs AV10, means a whole bunch of shots are NOT getting aimed at the Predator, whilst this is good for the predators health and welfare, it says nothing about where those other shots are going.

 

Thats my piece, I wont be replying to comeback so take with a pinch of salt if you wish.