Thunderfire Cannons

[Hellios]

As for the cheating thing you brought up that the guy who won ToS was cheating and so tournies can't be trusted... so is everyone else at the tourny cheating?

 

care to quote me saying that?

 

in my opinion, your putting too much stock in GTs.. indy tournaments can be just as competative and so can friendly LGS games.

now ive told you that the t-fire is brilliant and that the synergy and usefulness in my lists is great.. if your only counter to this is "your opponents could be noobs" then id suggest all your doing is trolling.

i dont enjoy clubbing baby seals never have.. anyone who follows my progress knos i play as many competative matches as i can because i learn more from them

 

Oh and don't give that opponent could be a noob is a load of bull as you or a friend of TFCs basically said if you can't keep them alive you are doing something wrong and I would like to say that the arguement that your opponent is doing something wrong if he can't kill it is equally valid as that point.

 

Well maybe it was one of the others :P you all look the same to me but someone said something about the winner of the ToS winning my cheating. I actually don't put much stock in GTs... I don't think GT players are gods like some people do (I even said as much in one my earlier posts), what I said is that I know the GT scene and so I can put what you say in context.

 

I'm not doubting that you play aginst good players, but in the end that is really only your word and who is going to admit they like defeating noobs (not saying you do)... even the guy who likes doing it is going to bragg about his victories but he will say they were ard boyz finalists. I don't take you for being this kind of person... but when it comes to how good things are that is subjective unless you have a fixed point of context... I find GTs are good for that. Idaho has apparently done well against people who have done well in those events... Now I have to make some assumptions because I haven't been given any details but I can now say ok it is possible to keep thunderfire cannons alive against good opponents... although that in itself is an assumption he didn't lose the cannon in the first turn of every game and still do well or that he didn't have insane luck. The devil is in the detail and I love the devil.

 

Hell if it is really that important to you that I think your friends are good (and I doubt it is) either link to ones you have already posted or go make some bat reps with lots of photos and details (so one knows what is going on) and then everyone can see for themselves what you are doing with the TFC and that the guys you are fighting are good because we can see what they are using and how they are using it. Hell we can even see if your results are average below average or above average and if what you are seeing is because you are jammy or maybe what your seeing isn't the half of what a thunderfire could do because you make bad rolls.

[Bartali]

People need to think a bit more in depth about their units then just "Dis'un iz fo killin' Tankz, and Dis'unz fo killin' peepulz"

 

I think you've completely misread my post, and it's precisely that kind of attitude which can get some lists into trouble. A TFC will be mostly ignored by a mech army. A Dakka Pred in the same slot will be feared by both mech and foot lists.

 

That's not to say a TFC doesn't have it's place. Much like the Eldar Night Spinner it should work well in foot lists as I'm guessing it does in GC's scout list (although I haven't seen his list)

[greatcrusade08]

I'm guessing it does in GC's scout list (although I haven't seen his list)

 

ask and ye shall recieve

 

Shrike (195)

 

10 scouts (175)

- power fist

- close combat weapons

- combi-melta

 

10 scouts (175)

- bolters

- ML

- fist

 

10 scouts (200)

- snipers

- Telion

- ML

 

10 scouts (180)

- snipers

- HB

- camo cloaks

 

5 scouts (115)

- combi-melta

- meltabombs

- fist

 

10 scout bikes (265)

- 3 grenade launchers

- fist

 

Land speeder storm (65) - tomb slayer

- MM

 

2 land speeder typhoons (180)

 

thunderfire cannon (100)

 

thunderfire cannon (100)

 

1750

[Arkios]

People need to think a bit more in depth about their units then just "Dis'un iz fo killin' Tankz, and Dis'unz fo killin' peepulz"

 

I think you've completely misread my post, and it's precisely that kind of attitude which can get some lists into trouble. A TFC will be mostly ignored by a mech army.A Dakka Pred in the same slot will be feared by both mech and foot lists.

No, I understand completely. Next time you are meched up and playing a decent TFC list/player, ignore the TFC and see what happens... On turn 1, when the first rhino explodes and its passengers have to take 26 saves from a single unit's shooting, I'm pretty sure your mech army will then start view them as a threat. I'd like to see a daka pred cause that amount of mayhem.

 

Edit: I'd also like to see the dakka pred have the amount of utility that a thunderfire has. Seriously now you complain that the TFC is mostly anti-infantry and bring up the dakka pred? Come on! All a dakka pred is good for is shooting infantry, maybe in a pinch throwing the autocannon at light armor (a waste in most circumstances, a Hail-Mary pass at best), having AV13 front armour, and being 15 points cheaper. It is effectively immobile if you want to fire more than one weapon (just like the TFC), and will crumple like a rhino if you can get around to its side armour...

 

IMO, if you are going to take a pred, spring for the lascannon sponson combi-pred, but thats an entirely different animal.

[Mysticaria]

Lot of good arguments made for TFC, but I still can't get around the fact that it is AV10 artillery. That's just too easy to knock it out in my opinion, especially when 4/6 of every shot are going it's way.

 

Also, for me, the fact that you lose out on the heavy support role of "drawing fire" from or "providing cover to" rhinos is a big deal... something I've come to rely on from my heavy support, and I think it makes TFC not for me. I do think it might work in the right army though, just not sure which. Seems like a Shrike/scout force might be good since you could engage any guns you think would be aiming at your TFC pretty quickly, and the TFC could support the more forward infiltrating and scouting elements.

 

-Myst

[greatcrusade08]

an informed decision is a reliable one <_<

[spartan249]

You know... for some funny reason, the thing that screws my thunderfire over every game these past two weeks is the damn wounds on the techmarine. I lose my techmarine every time someone breathes that way. Ridiculous.

[Bartali]

People need to think a bit more in depth about their units then just "Dis'un iz fo killin' Tankz, and Dis'unz fo killin' peepulz"

 

I think you've completely misread my post, and it's precisely that kind of attitude which can get some lists into trouble. A TFC will be mostly ignored by a mech army.A Dakka Pred in the same slot will be feared by both mech and foot lists.

No, I understand completely. Next time you are meched up and playing a decent TFC list/player, ignore the TFC and see what happens... On turn 1, when the first rhino explodes and its passengers have to take 26 saves from a single unit's shooting, I'm pretty sure your mech army will then start view them as a threat. I'd like to see a daka pred cause that amount of mayhem.

 

But by taking TFCs you have to take anti-tank elsewhere, and in some cases have units that specialise making it easier to deal with.

 

Edit: I'd also like to see the dakka pred have the amount of utility that a thunderfire has. Seriously now you complain that the TFC is mostly anti-infantry and bring up the dakka pred? Come on! All a dakka pred is good for is shooting infantry, maybe in a pinch throwing the autocannon at light armor (a waste in most circumstances, a Hail-Mary pass at best), having AV13 front armour, and being 15 points cheaper. It is effectively immobile if you want to fire more than one weapon (just like the TFC), and will crumple like a rhino if you can get around to its side armour...

 

IMO, if you are going to take a pred, spring for the lascannon sponson combi-pred, but thats an entirely different animal.

 

Disagree entirely. A Dakka Pred has around a 40% chance of immobilsing, wrecking or destroying a Rhino. Certainly not a Hail Mary.

If I wanted to go Las heavy, I'd run a Las/Plas Razorback list, but that's just me.

[greatcrusade08]

But by taking TFCs you have to take anti-tank elsewhere, and in some cases have units that specialise making it easier to deal with.

 

thats the silliest argument i think ive heard on this thread.. and thats saying something..

its not that i think your silly.. just that the main reason you wont takt it is becuase its speicialised at killing infantry... well there goes half the codex then...

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think bartali views C:SM a generalist codex, units need redundency and by having this the efficiency of the army can never be compromised, but this negates any specialised unit from being taken. Thing is specialised units are often be more powerful and efficient than the generalists, but i see the point i think.

[Bartali]

But by taking TFCs you have to take anti-tank elsewhere, and in some cases have units that specialise making it easier to deal with.

 

thats the silliest argument i think ive heard on this thread.. and thats saying something..

its not that i think your silly.. just that the main reason you wont takt it is becuase its speicialised at killing infantry... well there goes half the codex then...

 

You obviously never played as Eldar, where everything is heavily specialised.

Take for example Dire Avengers, anti-infantry shooting par excellence. What do they do if your opponent brings heavy mech ? Or if your playing horde and your opponent takes them out ?

 

The Space Marine codex's greatest strength is it's generalist nature and hence duality and redunancy. Most stuff can effect a range of targets, and should it be taken out by your opponent, you'll normally have something else to take up the slack.

 

Specialist units, in my opinion, don't play to the advantages of the Space Marine codex (bar TH/SS Terminators, but that's another discussion ;)) Dumping anti-infantry duties in to Thunderfire Cannons or Whirlwinds, Long range anti-tank into Tri-Las Preds etc allow opponents to specifically target threats to them and eliminate them

[waaanial00]

@bartali - just because Thunderfire is a specialist doesnt mean that there shouldnt be redundancy elsewhere in the list. To be honest the anti infantry redundancy are tactical marines which almost every marine list takes. Having redundancy within the list can be achieved by much more than avoiding specialisation in certain units.

 

Hell if an opponent thinks my only anti infantry is a thunderfire cannon then they have done some serious underestimation of the capabilities of the rest of the blokes lined up next to it :)

 

I do see what you are saying, though I think you are taking an extreme view. Its 100 points, assuming 1500 then thats 1/15 of your list, you have much more to play with in order to secure all the bases.

[Arkios]

But by taking TFCs you have to take anti-tank elsewhere, and in some cases have units that specialise making it easier to deal with.

You SHOULD be taking anti-tank elsewhere. You mean to tell me that out of your entire army, you only dedicate 1-2 Heavy Support slots and 100-200 points worth of units to high strength weaponry? You were talking about a generalized army earlier, so your other generalized units should have some way to deal with armour.

 

Disagree entirely. A Dakka Pred has around a 40% chance of immobilsing, wrecking or destroying a Rhino. Certainly not a Hail Mary.

If I wanted to go Las heavy, I'd run a Las/Plas Razorback list, but that's just me.

 

With 2 Heavy Bolters and an Autocannon, it's about a 21% chance to immobilize a rhino and a 14% chance to wreck or destroy it. Firing the entire tank to try and break open a rhino is about as statistically effective as shooting a SINGLE Lascannon and I have Lascannons elsewhere in my lists that I would rather use to break open that rhino... So, while you are right that it isn't exactly a Hail Mary pass, I'm sure you can agree with me that it is indeed a waste of its anti infantry shooting potential.

 

Just to put things into perspective, a Thunderfire has an 11% chance* to immobilize a Rhino, plus an 11% chance* to wreck or destroy it. Its a little more of a stretch, but not terribly worse than the Dakka Pred. Again, to fire on a Rhino is a waste of its potential.

 

*I counted a scatter distance of 1 inch or less (scatter roll of 5 or less with BS 4) as a hit, anything more and a centered blast marker would deviate off the rhino's side.

[Bartali]

But by taking TFCs you have to take anti-tank elsewhere, and in some cases have units that specialise making it easier to deal with.

You SHOULD be taking anti-tank elsewhere. You mean to tell me that out of your entire army, you only dedicate 1-2 Heavy Support slots and 100-200 points worth of units to high strength weaponry? You were talking about a generalized army earlier, so your other generalized units should have some way to deal with armour.

 

Obviously not, no, as that would be silly :devil: As the Thunderfire Cannon isn't very good against tanks (I'll get to the stats in a bit), you have to over emphasise anti-tank elements in the rest of your list, to the detriment of their generalist nature

 

Disagree entirely. A Dakka Pred has around a 40% chance of immobilsing, wrecking or destroying a Rhino. Certainly not a Hail Mary.

If I wanted to go Las heavy, I'd run a Las/Plas Razorback list, but that's just me.

 

With 2 Heavy Bolters and an Autocannon, it's about a 21% chance to immobilize a rhino and a 14% chance to wreck or destroy it. Firing the entire tank to try and break open a rhino is about as statistically effective as shooting a SINGLE Lascannon and I have Lascannons elsewhere in my lists that I would rather use to break open that rhino... So, while you are right that it isn't exactly a Hail Mary pass, I'm sure you can agree with me that it is indeed a waste of its anti infantry shooting potential.

 

Just to put things into perspective, a Thunderfire has an 11% chance* to immobilize a Rhino, plus an 11% chance* to wreck or destroy it. Its a little more of a stretch, but not terribly worse than the Dakka Pred. Again, to fire on a Rhino is a waste of its potential.

 

*I counted a scatter distance of 1 inch or less (scatter roll of 5 or less with BS 4) as a hit, anything more and a centered blast marker would deviate off the rhino's side.

 

So the stats to immbolise, wreck or destroy a Rhino :-

 

Predator AC/HB 37%

Thunderfire Cannon (Using Surface Rounds, and deviation of 1" hits (after deduction of BS4) 26%

 

Makes the Predator 42% better than the Thunderfire Cannon vs light mech. You can of course also pen AV12 in a pinch with a Dakka Pred, which you can't do with a Cannon

[breng77]

The issue with using a 1 Inch scatter for the math is that the average scatter is 2 inches (taking rolling hits into account). In addition direction matters, forward and backward 2" may still be over the hull, to the side not as much. Needless to say that the odds are a little worse than 26% overall. You cannot do the math assuming that the thunderfire will hit while taking hitting into account the whether predators odds of hitting. With a 2" scatter the hole will be over the whole about 1/4th of the time (there is about a 45 degree arc in the front and another in the rear of the vehicle where the hole is still over the tank. 90/360=1/4) Given this the odds are closer to 22% of the time the TF cannon can Immobilze, Wreck, or Explode a Rhino.

[greatcrusade08]

let me understand this... becuase a thunderfire has no ability to take on tanks it shouldnt be included in the list?

man id love to take on your army with my swarm-o-scouts..

[breng77]

Not at all, I was just correcting the math. It is great vs. Infantry, just not very multi-purpose, which some people look for in their units (I tend not to be one of them with all my armies, as not every build can field multi-purpose units effectively)

[Bartali]

All I'm saying is, it makes target selection easier for your opponent. For example in your list (simplifying it somewhat)

 

If i'm playing foot, my number one priority would be your Cannons. I could safely ignore your melta speeder squad.

If i'm playing mech, my number one priority is your melta speeder squad. I could safely ignore the Cannons.

 

C:SMs strength is it's generalist nature and redundancy across FOC slots. For example, not only can I take Melta in most slots, I can also make the same unit solidly anti-infantry too. Contrast this to the Eldar, who pretty much only have Fire Dragons on Melta duties forcing you to use all of your Elite slots if you want any form of redundancy.

 

Interestingly, and this is not a slight on your list, I think your list would play better out of the Eldar codex due to it's specialist nature.

[Mysticaria]

All I'm saying is, it makes target selection easier for your opponent. For example in your list (simplifying it somewhat)

 

If i'm playing foot, my number one priority would be your Cannons. I could safely ignore your melta speeder squad.

If i'm playing mech, my number one priority is your melta speeder squad. I could safely ignore the Cannons.

 

C:SMs strength is it's generalist nature and redundancy across FOC slots. For example, not only can I take Melta in most slots, I can also make the same unit solidly anti-infantry too. Contrast this to the Eldar, who pretty much only have Fire Dragons on Melta duties forcing you to use all of your Elite slots if you want any form of redundancy.

 

Interestingly, and this is not a slight on your list, I think your list would play better out of the Eldar codex due to it's specialist nature.

This concept seems to be coming up in quite a few threads recently. Build each unit to be able to cover each role, and hence have more redundency.... or build the army with specialized units tailored for each role, and hence have units in the army that are really good at what they do. This is a significant play style difference, and one that really comes out when discussing extremely 'generalist' or extremely 'specialist' units. You see a lot of debate about Tactical terminators for instance, which is a significantly 'generalist' unit. Likewise, whirlwind and thunderfire get lots of debate since they are specialist.

 

Personally, I think I tend towards more generalist units, but for a different reason than Bartali. I do it so that the game will be interesting. I take a bunch of stuff that can do multipule roles, and then each game I try to play to my srength in that matchup. That's something that specialist armies don't really have. If you have a bunch of MM speeders and Assault terminators... you have the best units at what they do and will probably be highly effective... but the game is going to play out the same pretty much every time. I used to play tyranids and that was pretty much the same game every time. Run, run, assualt, win if I have enough. With marines, it hasn't been the same since somtimes I use mobility and bunkers, other games I assault, sometimes I run away and try to shoot. Different fun games every time.

 

-Myst

[Arkios]

Obviously not, no, as that would be silly :ermm: As the Thunderfire Cannon isn't very good against tanks (I'll get to the stats in a bit), you have to over emphasise anti-tank elements in the rest of your list, to the detriment of their generalist nature

In a generalist styled list, you will have Tactical squads with melta and/or heavy weapons, Dreadnoughts with heavy weapons, maybe some Sternguard, and MM/HF and/or Typhoon speeders, all multi purposed and all able to deal with a decent bit of armour. It really doesnt make you overemphasize on anything unless you really want too.

 

As for target priority, I only ever run TFCs in pairs, and like to ram a lot of more immediate and obvious looking threats down the enemies throat. Ironclads, regular dreads, Land raiders, Vindicators, hell even Razorback spam and Rhino rush will help keep the heat off of your other units. Its really not that big of a deal unless you are careless with your unit deployment.

 

So the stats to immbolise, wreck or destroy a Rhino :-

 

Predator AC/HB 37%

Thunderfire Cannon (Using Surface Rounds, and deviation of 1" hits (after deduction of BS4) 26%

 

Makes the Predator 42% better than the Thunderfire Cannon vs light mech. You can of course also pen AV12 in a pinch with a Dakka Pred, which you can't do with a Cannon

Thats fine and dandy if you weight the immob results as heavily as the wreck / destroyed results. After turn 1, the Rhinos have already charged up 12 inches and are in the mid-field where full tac-squads in rhinos should be. To immobilize it anytime past the opponents first turn (while better than doing nothing) still leaves the squad inside with a protective bunker right where they need it. At that point in time, I couldn't give a rats ass about immob results (don't get me wrong they can come in handy every now and then and can prevent fast relocation of enemy forces, so please don't preach to me about the virtues of immobilizing transports).

 

What I look to do, is break open the vehicle and get to the tasty morsels inside of it. Comparing the Dakka Pred to the Thunderfire in that role (lol): 14% vs ~11% to wreck or explode the Rhino (TFC's chance is low-balled, more on that later). Sure you can say "Wow the Dakka Pred is almost 30% better at anti-rhino duty than the TFC!"... or you can be realistic and say "Wow, an almost 30% increase from crap is still crap!"

 

We can talk talk all day about tickling AV12 with a single Autocannon, or about throwing a TFC's subterranean rounds into a vehicle formation in hopes of them failing dangerous terrain tests (I've done it before, heheheh), or any of the other anti-vehicle capabilities of the TFC vs Dakka Pred... but we have wasted enough time already.

 

In reality, the only vehicles either of these two platforms can seriously threaten are AV10 vehicles which can be downed by enough of our tactical marines armed with only regular bolters. So lets stop the madness! :D

 

 

The issue with using a 1 Inch scatter for the math is that the average scatter is 2 inches (taking rolling hits into account). In addition direction matters, forward and backward 2" may still be over the hull, to the side not as much. Needless to say that the odds are a little worse than 26% overall.

I think you may have misunderstood what I mean when I say that I count a scatter of 1 inch as a hit. I was not checking against the average 2d6 roll (which would be 7 / 2 inch scatter), but actually factoring in the probability of ALL out comes on 2d6.

 

Technically speaking, I mean to say that probability of scoring a hit is the sum of the odds of rolling a "hit" marker plus the odds of rolling an "arrow" marker and rolling a 5 or under on 2d6; The probability of missing is the sum of the odds of rolling an "arrow" marker plus the odds of rolling a 6 or greater on 2d6.

 

The immob/werck/dest chances I have given are actually a low-ball estimate. As you have said earlier, the blast marker can scatter up to 2 inches from the center of the rhino in certain directions and still register a hit, thus increasing the TFC's actual chance to score a hit compared to my calculations. I low-balled it because I don't feel like busting out a protractor, ruler, and rhino to determine the directional percent where a 2 inch scatter would still count as a hit.

[breng77]

Ah that makes much more sense.