What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[maverike_prime]

Okay, first off I want to say upfront that I did not start this thread to be a “The current codex sucks!”-bash off. If you think there is something the current Chaos Space Marine codex does not do properly, fine. Say that, but be ready to offer up an idea to correct it.

I do think that the current codex did a lot of things right and addressed several problems that were present in the prior codex. Being able to tool out every aspiring champion to a comparable level with your lord being one of the big ones. I was practically doing cart wheels when I found that you could now run Tzeentch marked marines that weren’t Thousand sons. Changing the Defiler from being a stationary gun with legs (Why would you ever do that in the first place?) to a more mobile fire base I think was a good step.

However, in working to correct those problems I think they forgot some things when they crafted the current Codex.

1) Where are the Legions? The Iron Warriors, Night Lords, and the Alpha legion are big name Chaos armies. With the Horus Heresy Novels, and other Black Library publications that focus heavily on these armies, people want to play them. But at present all they are, are names and colors and nothing more. Do I want them to bring back the old 9-mini dexs inside of the main codex? No. I think that was needlessly contradictory. I think this can be address by taking a cue from the Current Space marine Codex. You have a series of Characters that grant certain abilities to represent the army in question.

The Iron Warriors I think would be fairly simple: Give them the stubborn special rule for all the CSM, Chosen, Terminators, Havocs and Lords.

The Nightlords are a bit more difficult to come up with an easy fix for just because of their character. There really isn’t a USR I can point to that would serve the Nightlords character, though giving them Acute senses to show they’re ability to see in the dark is a good start. The defining point of the Nightlords is their terror tactics. I think looking at the Blood Angels codex and more specifically the death mask rules is a good place to start. Give a special rule to select units, say Chosen, Possessed, Sorcerers and Lords that applies a negative leadership modifier to opponents they attack in close combat. The modifier would be cumulative with other modifiers. I haven’t had a chance to check out the new Dark Eldar Codex, but from what I’ve heard it may have some good starting points to look at for addressing the Night Lords.

The Alpha Legion… now there’s a challenge. In the past they’ve represented the alpha legion by giving them cultists that could infiltrate. But those tended to be less capable, less survivable, and less effective Imperial guard wannabes. More to the point, I never felt that that really represented the Alpha Legion’s belief in warfare, specifically the one that says to attack from a dozen different directions at the same time to inflict maximum disadvantage to the enemy while maximizing your own advantages. At a first thought, I think having a rule that allows Alpha Legion to booby trap terrain would be a good start. A rule that allows the Alpha Legion player to disrupt one opponents reserves might be a viable option as well.

 

2) Either give us back the Daemons or get them out of the book entirely. If we’re going to have Daemons, then give us Blood letters, Plauge bearers, Daemonettes, and Horrors. If we’re going to have Greater Daemons then give us Blood Thirsters, Keepers, Great unclean ones, and Lords of Change. If we’re not going to have them, then take them out of the book entirely.

3) Make the Daemon Prince more then just a Psychic powers dump. Give it options to really change it’s stats, Daemonic Speed, Daemonic Wings, Daemonic Armor, Daemon weapon options. Make it so that the Daemon prince can be a real monster but worth the points. As it stands most people I’ve seen just use him for a Lash of Submission with wings.

4) Abaddon. Yes, he is bad ass. Make him worth taking for the army, not just himself. Abaddon is arguable the single most bad-ass mother loving beat you in the face s.o.b. to come out of the Eye of terror in the last ten thousand years. He has managed to unit the forces of Chaos into a coherent force not just once but 13 times. Give him an ability that affects the army to represent this. All Chaos Space Marines count has having an Icon of Chaos Glory for free perhaps.

5) Personally, I think there should be a distinction between “Renegade Space Marines” and the “Traitor Legion Marines”. The Traitor Legions have been duking it out in the Eye of Terror for ten thousand years. They are hard and battle worn even more so then normal marines, while Renagade Marine are closer to their loyalist brothers in terms of operating standard. I’ll be honest, off the top of my head I’m not really sure what would be a good way to address this particular distinction in game. Perhaps Renegades keep the current CSM stats and options, while Traitor Legion marines get Veteran skill options.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

A way to buy Insanity away from our Dreads. And/or Dreadclaws, so I can rain Fire Frenzying Dreadnoughts on my foe.

[Magnus Thane]

GOOD Chaos Dreads and an option to make competitive Thousand Sons forces.

[Brother Nihm]

Adherence to established fluff, not senseless retcon bs as in the current one. Variety, flavour, the ability to field all Legion warbands, special characters that are actually special and not just point sinks with no effects on the army, re-balancing of cult units to make 50% of them worth taking. The option to do away with dread insanity via Daemonic Possession, drop pods, 0-1 Daemon Princes, bring back some form of the Ancient Enemies rule to coincide with established fluff - make exceptions for Chaos Undivided and similar, make spawn and fringe-units like Possessed, Raptors, Bikers, Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemons worth taking.

 

 

In short, fix this soulless pile of ^_^:

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Adherence to established fluff, not senseless retcon bs as in the current one. Variety, flavour, the ability to field all Legion warbands, special characters that are actually special and not just point sinks with no effects on the army, re-balancing of cult units to make 50% of them worth taking. The option to do away with dread insanity via Daemonic Possession, drop pods, 0-1 Daemon Princes, bring back some form of the Ancient Enemies rule to coincide with established fluff - make exceptions for Chaos Undivided and similar, make spawn and fringe-units like Possessed, Raptors, Bikers, Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemons worth taking.

 

 

In short, fix this soulless pile of ^_^:

 

Looks like that insanity is catching :blink:

[Hyaenidae]

1) Dreadclaws - 'nuff said

2) Possessed that don't suck - let us choose our mutations and abilities

3) Better options for the Chaos Lord - I want to be able to pick a World Eater Lord, not a guy with the mark of Khorne. And the current Daemon Weapons need to be changed.

4) Raptors that don't suck - seriously, these guys need something to make them stand out and worth the points, hit and run maybe?

5) Traitor Guard as troop choices (a personal wish; my lost and damned army is very sad only playing Apoc games ;) )

6) Chosen - More options...these guys are supposed to be the elite of a band of 10,000 year old murderers. something similar to the Sternguard/Vanguard of the SM would be nice.

[Legatus]

- Fluff for the Traitor Legions. I am ok with constructing your Legion force from a general army list, but they do need to be described somewhere. Even if the Legions as such do not exist anymore, there are still warbands that are mainly from members of one of the original Legions.

 

- Chaos Marks being permanent, and not dependand on an icon.

 

- Cult Daemons. I mean, I understand why GW would limit daemon choics in a "Chaos Space Marine" army list, but I like the variety of daemons as a traditional trademark of Chaos forces. Maybe make them 0-2 or something, with more becoming available when the Lord has the appropriate mark.

 

- Daemon Princes becoming a "unique" choice. But customizeable.

 

- Cult Terminators. Though permanent Marks would already be a step in the right direction.

 

- Khârn getting his survival traits back. It had always been one of his triast that he was pretty much an immortal (and being hard to put down is also an inherent trait of Berserkers).

 

- I would personally like to see Berserkers getting "Feel no Pain" and Plague Marines getting "Nurgle's Rott" instead. Berserkers shrug off wounds, Plague Marines contaminate the battlefield (while still being tough due to their physique).

 

- Make Chaos Marines have either boltguns or BP/CCW again. I liked it when GW gave this exclusively to Chaos Marines, but now they have gone over board with it. That rule has to go. Two weapons per model again. This would instantly make Raptors more attractive as well, as currently CSM squads have better armament and merely lack the jump packs.

[Aqui]

Adherence to established fluff, not senseless retcon bs as in the current one. Variety, flavour, the ability to field all Legion warbands, special characters that are actually special and not just point sinks with no effects on the army, re-balancing of cult units to make 50% of them worth taking. The option to do away with dread insanity via Daemonic Possession, drop pods, 0-1 Daemon Princes, bring back some form of the Ancient Enemies rule to coincide with established fluff - make exceptions for Chaos Undivided and similar, make spawn and fringe-units like Possessed, Raptors, Bikers, Greater Daemons, Lesser Daemons worth taking.

 

 

In short, fix this soulless pile of ;):

 

This. I don't have the Chaos Codex, but was able to borrow one from a friend who doesn't play GW stuff anymore, but is a sucker for Codices. With the exception of buying and painting a few models, My Bahltimyr Reavers won't be making any appearances on a battlefield anytime soon.... :jaw:

 

God I miss Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned ;)

[Shas'o R'Vre]

- Make Chaos Marines have either boltguns or BP/CCW again. I liked it when GW gave this exclusively to Chaos Marines, but now they have gone over board with it. That rule has to go. Two weapons per model again. This would instantly make Raptors more attractive as well, as currently CSM squads have better armament and merely lack the jump packs.

Please no. This would screw my lovingly modelled army over on WYSIWYG grounds :jaw:

[Rik Riorik]

1. Legion specific rules returned. I liked the 4th edition Space Marines Codex, te 3.5th edition Chaos Codex and the 3.5th edition Imperial Guard Codex. These had in them rules that allowed you to feel like it was your army. Especially the Imperial Guard one I loved to bits, the Kuirlaand "Freedom Brigades" Penal Legions might yet rise again! But seriously, Chaos Legions as they were in 3.5 was gold.

 

2. I'd like to see more options in the unit entries list. A Daemon Engine or something, Drop Pods.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

I want two codices - Codex Legions and Codex Renegades.

 

Codex Legions would be a fairly unique Codex, as what it has is the standard army list - and then you choose which Legion you are running. Each Legion has special rules attached to each, IE Night Lords gain raptors as a troop choice and force a Leadership test when they are being charged, the charging unit having to take the test. These wouldn't cost points, but you would have to use one of the Legions.

 

Chaos renegades would be similar to the current Codex, but move the cults to the elite section. Keep standard squads as they are, and keep marks, because that's really fluffy and useful for a more recently made renegade force - they aren't equal to the Cult Legions, but they do follow the same god so do benefit as well. Make Obliterators slightly more expensive, and give them two or three sets of special weapons, which they have to choose between. Lesser Daemons are bought as lesser daemons, but you buy which type of lesser daemon they are, and then they are that unit from Codex Daemons (IE, you buy lesser daemons and Daemonettes, you would get the Daemonettes unit in Codex Daemons without any upgrades, save for a champion).

[Michael W]

Legionaries and Renegades need to be separate options.

Personally, I think Renegades should be Ld 8 (9 for the Sgt) standard Marines w/o ATSKNF. Cheap (14 pts?), expendable, but competent and hardy soldiers. Options for Marks but not required.

Legionaries should be 2A, Ld9 (10 for the Sgt), and required to adhere to one of the 9 legions (with each legion having its own characteristics). Havocs and Bikers should follow the trend. Legionaries should be limited to one unit per unit of Renegades, and have the choice (generally) of BP and either Bolter or CCW.

Back of the book should be a "Slaves to Darkness" section detailing how to play a Legion-specific army (ie, all Legionaries, but all of one Legion).

Differing Chaos powers should have disadvantages for working together (Ld penalties, probably).

New Land Raider variant,

Razorbacks added to the Codex,

Daemons sorted out - they should be in, and they should be varieties.

Raptors are their own Cult within the Chaos forces and should reflect this.

Marks and Icons should be different.

Cult Terminators should return - Rubric Terminators, anyone? How about EC Terminators with Sonic Blasters and a Blastmaster? Or WE Terminators with Dual Power Weapons and S5?

The Big 4 (TS, WE, EC, and DG) should all have FNP. WE and TS should be Fearless, EC and DG should be Stubborn. TS should have access be Relentless, Slow and Purposeful, and have access to Heavy Weapons (TS Havoc squad with HB, anyone?). EC should get their +1 Initiative, WE their Rage and Furious Charge, DG with Nurgle's Rot and T5.

Black Legion should be the Legion that facilitates different Marks without the penalties.

Possessed need to be sorted out, as well as Obliterators.

Chaos Lords need a lot more options, as do Daemon Princes. And yes, DP need to be a 0-1 choice. So do Chaos Terminators.

Lieutenants need to return (maybe 0-3 per HQ choice). TS need upgraded Sorcerers.

 

Yeah...I'd love to see a new Chaos Marine Codex. I'd also love to see a Codex: Heritcus, detailing Chaos and Genestealer Cults. But I don't see that being real likely...

[Vissah]

- Make Chaos Marines have either boltguns or BP/CCW again. I liked it when GW gave this exclusively to Chaos Marines, but now they have gone over board with it. That rule has to go. Two weapons per model again. This would instantly make Raptors more attractive as well, as currently CSM squads have better armament and merely lack the jump packs.

Please no. This would screw my lovingly modelled army over on WYSIWYG grounds ^_^

 

Same here just keep the normal Marines the way they are now they are doing just fine and if I were a 10000 year old veteran I would take all my gear with me.

Also I dont want to remodel all my stuff and buy lots of new stuff just to play with a new Codex, buying some new stuff is always cool but having to buy a whole new army is something Im not gonna do.

 

I actually think this Codex is pretty good and gamewise there is not much wrong with it. I get all the points about not being able to field the original Legions and stuff like that but other then being to costly pointwise compared to the newer books there is gamewise not much wrong with it.l

 

Redo the points and fix some units so they are worth playing and come with some new units and vehicles and all is set is my opinion.

[diabloelmo]

There's a simple fix to all these problems....... retcon the current codex :D

[Malalite]

I like the idea of splitting the Chaos forces into two basic lists, which in GW's current publishing model, would probably comprise two codices, although one big fatter-than-usual codex would be ideal. The best way of defining them, as mentioned above, would be a Codex: Chaos Legions, and Codex: Chaos Renegades. They would both have access to the same types of troops, for the most part, but in different ratios. The first list would have the classic Traitor Legions as the backbone troops, and could draw upon Daemons, Renegades (Space Marine and Imperial Guard), Cultists and Mutants as supplementary troops, with perhaps somewhat greater access to Daemons. The latter list would focus more on Renegades, with Legion units as limited elites, and generally better access to Cultists and Mutants, along with a smattering of Daemons.

 

That's what I would like to see, anyway.

[Rik Riorik]

1. Legion specific rules returned. I liked the 4th edition Space Marines Codex, te 3.5th edition Chaos Codex and the 3.5th edition Imperial Guard Codex. These had in them rules that allowed you to feel like it was your army. Especially the Imperial Guard one I loved to bits, the Kuirlaand "Freedom Brigades" Penal Legions might yet rise again! But seriously, Chaos Legions as they were in 3.5 was gold.

 

2. I'd like to see more options in the unit entries list. A Daemon Engine or something, Drop Pods.

 

About no 1. I really can't stress how much I liked the revised 3rd edition Imperial Guard Codex with it's Doctrines. For the world of me I can't understand (1) why they removed it for the new Codex and (2) why they didn't start including such things in every Codex after having included it in that Codex. I really felt that the Imperial Guard Doctrine combination that I pulled together in a very good way made my force genuinly feel like it wasn't just another run of the mill thing. It added character, and not only character in a behind the scenes "fluff" way.

 

The same was true with the Legion specific rules. You didn't just play Chaos Marines, you played a Legion specific force. Your army wasn't just another paint scheme.

 

These days customisation of your force seems to be the territory of Special Characters which I feel is a load of absolute rubbish. I've never fielded a Special Character in 40k and the only two times I've fielded a Special Character in Warhammer Fantasy Battles was when I fielded Valten during games in the Storm of Chaos campaign. I don't want to field a pre defined character in order to customise the rest of my force. That seems a strange combination.

 

 

 

About no 2. I think with the removal of the Daemons from the Codex the list is a bit shallow. Besides when is the last time something new, and cool was added to the mix? Drops pods make sense but you'd want something that establishes that link with Chaos, something that oozes 'Gothic Evil Incarnate' and does so in a new and exciting way. I don't know what it should be but it would be nice to see something new in the list. Or maybe they just need to redo the Chaos Dreads both in rules and in model to make them resemble nothing like the Space Marine Dreads whilst still essentially being Dreads.

 

Having said all that I do like the removal of the Daemons to their own Codex, but again their Codex even with the added Daemons is a bit shallow.

 

 

And then I'd like to add a 3rd. Which is that I also feel that there needs to be more options for the HQ choices in terms of what you can deck them out with. One might argue that with Marks of Chaos you do have a lot of options, but for me Marks isn't just another gear option. It is something that drastically alters the whole feel of the army. I guess that is because I was introduced to Chaos with the 3.5 Codex, but I'm finding it very hard to change that about now.

[Paradigm]

I know I am in the minority. I prefer this codex over 3.5.

 

I like the way this codex is so much more streamlined. I like how I can take whatever I want and do whatever I want with it. Forcing me to follow a certain path just because I want my army painted a certain way is frustrating. I don't think this would be the army for me if that were the case.

 

I'd like to see the special character route taken with the csm dex. I'll be bummed if they just bring back 3.5 or something like it. I would like to see cultists as a troops choice for use with certain lords. Hopefully they have space marine aspiring champions as a leadership option.

 

I'd like raptors to have some kind of option and or special rule that makes them better than the assault/tactical squads we can already take. I'd like to see shotguns as a much more common option throughout the dex.

 

I'd like to see bikes that have a better price point.

 

I'd like dreadclaws that can deepstrike, then lift off and come down again somewhere else.

 

I'd like the warband concept to be fully fleshed out so that it isn't a half-assed reason to streamline a codex.

 

More than anything I'd like to see more special characters, not ones from other legions, but from some of the warbands. Assuming of course that they could be a convincing counts as for just about any army. IE undivided.

 

 

 

What do I not want to see?

 

The super-convoluted mess that some of the old codices really were. I loved them when they were there, but my games are so much easier and better to play now.

 

 

 

 

Edit: I'd like my dreadnoughts in both sane and insane options please, with a good reason to take the crazy ones.

[Spacefrisian]

Some things i like to see.

 

Troops:

-Option of making them possessed

-Champion upgrade to Cypher or Fabius or Alpha legion Character

-Option of adding a spawn to it.

 

Marks for Lesser Daemons

 

Dreadclaw

 

Marks on vehicles example:

-Sound weapons on Slaanesh vehicles

-Chance to skimmer on Tzeentch vehicles

-Added ramming power on Khorne

-Rot options on Nurgle types or changing Ranged weapons into poisoned type (Poison shell Vindicator anyone)

 

Mutated hull

 

Doomrider

 

Nightlord guy with bike/ jumppack option:

-option of Raptors as troops, Lesser daemons with wings.

 

Dark Apostle, Warsmith

 

More options for Lord/ Daemonprince (vetskills)

 

1 of those chaos flyers

 

Cavalry mounted Marines

[Hellios]

I don't want another Codex: Chaos Space Marines... I don't think Chaos can survive another one...

 

What I want is

 

The tome of Chaos

Which...

Makes the BBB look small.

Contains rules, fluff and characters for all 9 legions and warbands of said legions (Ok maybe not fluff, rules and characters for all the warbands :P)

Generic chaos rules for people who want their own thing as well... or mabe that is the black legions... may chaos has no such thing as generic... being chaos and all.

Renegades list for renegade marines... with things like landspeeders in it...

Chaos daemons back in the same list... and able to run pure daemon lists as well as mixing with marines...

The lost and the damned/renegedade guard/blood pact....

As for new stuff.... flyers (because everyone else is getting them) and more daemon engines... seriously a lot of that old epic stuff rocked...

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I don't want another Codex: Chaos Space Marines... I don't think Chaos can survive another one...

 

What I want is

 

The tome of Chaos

Or the five books of Chaos. Basically what you just said, but in 5 Books (the four deities and undivided)

[Hellios]

I don't want another Codex: Chaos Space Marines... I don't think Chaos can survive another one...

 

What I want is

 

The tome of Chaos

Or the five books of Chaos. Basically what you just said, but in 5 Books (the four deities and undivided)

 

No a giant leather bound book locked by chains covered in dark symbols is far better!

[Shas'o R'Vre]

No a giant leather bound book locked by chains covered in dark symbols is far better!

To look at, yes. To find rules in, no.

[Hellios]

No a giant leather bound book locked by chains covered in dark symbols is far better!

To look at, yes. To find rules in, no.

 

It is called an index... well I guess that depends where in the book it is... I find it far easier to find rules in the BBB than in the codices.... and certainly it would be better than having to get your list from multiple codices if say you had marines and daemons and so you needed more than one book.

[The Prophet]

Dreadclaws and a million options!

 

Like now but with more good stuff. A fast attack daemonic skimmer would be nice.

[Possessed Marine]

fast attack units that are worth taking

 

drop pods

 

sane dreads (look at the warmonger in dark apostle books)

 

legion traits

 

2 more seats in the land raider (why do loyalist troops have 'em & we don't? It's STC)

 

better possessed

 

marks that don't get removed from some silly banner (although the banners look kinda cool)

 

[\rant]

 

Possessed