What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[Captain Idaho]

@Idaho: Really? How odd... I think the SM codex is still very very nice, even compared to the newer released codices.

 

Well not me, but I often see (particularly on Warseer) moaning about Ultramarines being the focus in Codex SM, yet the alternative GW produced was the latest Chaos Marine Codex.

[Chengar Qordath]

It's funny in a way; the most recent Codex Chaos Marines is pretty unpopular after the success of it's predecesor, yet it is the same generic format people moan about Codex Space Marines NOT having!

It's all about implementation. The broad concept of a generic and flexible codex that could represent everyone from legions to renegades might have been good, but how GW went about doing it was completely awful. A badly implemented good idea can be a lot worse than a well-implemented bad idea.

[Lexington]

It's almost as if the Codex regards the Horus Heresy as a minor event eh? The "charm" of Chaos Marines used to be that they were the very same traitors from 10,000 years past, something that was always included in Chaos Marine Codex books in the past. The emphasis has since been changed. Obviously a fluff consideration, but I felt an important one.

It's all about implementation. The broad concept of a generic and flexible codex that could represent everyone from legions to renegades might have been good, but how GW went about doing it was completely awful. A badly implemented good idea can be a lot worse than a well-implemented bad idea.

The fact that I can't have a "Like" button for both of these posts is just this side of criminal. Excellent points, gentlemen, and well made.

[Rain]

Having actually read through this gargantuan thread, I want to just throw my few cents in. First off by all indication Chaos and Eldar are still in the conceptual stages at best meaning that we have 2+ years to wait yet for either unless something really out of left field occurs. Also, the whole arguement that this codex "encourages creativity" is in my opinion horribly disingenuous.

 

Fact is that by far the vast majority of players want lists that work and clean up on the battlefield, which means that they will take what is powerful, this is in large part a matter of mathematics, there is no creativity involved. They will build a Chaos army, paint it as Alpha Legion or whatever because they like blue/green and still field Nurgle princes and oblits because that is what works. Or worse yet they will "counts as" Space Wolves. The difference is that some books contain multiple builds that can work on the battlefield and some even match fluff! People take powerful builds anyway, that's just the nature of the beast, but at least then they can play AL that plays like AL in the fluff as well which helps with immersion.

 

Oh and yes, "builds" exist and are not just a "straitjacket" invented by jeske. Units have synergies with other units, just picking choices at random because each one looks nice is not really a great idea, and as no reasonably sized army can have everything, builds grow out of these synergies. I mean sure, some people do play entirely fluff/fun armies and field large amounts of underpowered units, but on the whole they are dwarfed by the amount of people using their "imagination" to run powerful lists/choices. I mean I understand their motives, winning is nice, but passing this off as creativity is absurd.

 

Oh and as has been noted, the reason restrictions are a good idea is not that the sheep need to be lead by the nose to build "proper" lists but that it allows a certain flair through one or two "overpowered" units. In other words, everyone likes to feel that a certain unit is "badass" once in a while, and restricting other things when a given "badass" unit/rule is taken helps balance that unit's otherwise over-powerful abilities or advantages. At least in theory, granted the restrictions are often meaninglessly weak, but that's the idea.

[subtlebrush]

@ Idaho: I thought the new C:SM was very well done.

 

@ Rain: I see what you mean by the majority of players out there are out to win with their list. If it seemed I was implying that in order for the list to be creative, they had to have a shiny new dex with shiny new units and "uber powerful" units then I apologize. I fall into a very small margin of people who want more to create an army from "inspiring" visuals and the rules follow later, if that makes any sense at all. Im just saying that as a visual piece in general, the new Codex was just plain to me. Would I still use the current Codex? Oh of course, I just don't find anything "visually" appealing to me in it as far as internal artwork is concerned.

[Warsmith Aznable]

I started playing with the current codex, have never even seen the old one, so my beefs and wants may be different. But then again they may not:

 

1. Dreadclaws. Like someone said on the first page, I want to deep-strike my Dreadnoughts. I think Dreadclaws should deep-strike but not scatter, coming down where you want them to because they're daemon possessed, or maybe instead have an option to come in without a reserve roll.

 

2. Better special characters that do stuff for your army. Like if you use one of your HQ slots on a character he lets you do something cool, like count walkers as troops or allow you to field an all terminator army or something.

 

3. Better tank variants. The fluff says there are daemonic forges in the Eye of Terror that do nothing but pump out war materiel. So why do loyalists get to field Land Raiders that carry half again as many troops and mount all kinds of crazy weaponry, but Chaos gets bog standard armed taxis? There should be at least one Predator and one Land Raider that does something uniquely Chaos.

 

4. Legionnaire lists. Maybe going back to point #2, each Legion gets a special character that gives you special rules for a specific legion, so the army list and options are the same, but there is some specific rule/s added that change the game play.

 

5. Better daemon troops. Or at least some difference between the different types of daemons, some reason that a lesser daemon of Nurgle is different than a lesser daemon of Khorne, for example. I know they don't want to reproduce the Daemons army inside of another, but some kind of difference would be nice.

 

6. An option to add Lost and Damned allies. Traitor Guard or heretic conscripts from a daemon world. I think running a mob of cannon fodder out in front of your Legionnaires like in Storm of Iron would be cool. Access to better armor would be neat too.

 

7. A flyer/skimmer vehicle. Something with a basic template that two or three different variants can be made from. And by this I mean something that flies but is not a Dreadclaw. My wish for a Dreadclaw is a separate thing, and I'd like to see both of these.

 

8. I love me some Daemon Engines. The Defiler kit is awesome for conversions, and I'd like to see them have some rules that included a new sprue for customizing your Daemon Engines.

 

Like someone else said, I would be up the creek if they said I couldn't take bolters and bolt pistol/CCW together anymore, because I created my basic Chaos Marines rather willy-nilly. It might not be a huge deal to re-WYSIWYG them, but it would still be annoying. There has to be some things like that to make up for all the special options that loyalists get.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm gona just come out and say it; Cyber Daemons!

 

It's a trick GW have missed for years and leaves so much scope for expansion. And yes I'm aware it's a rip off of Doom but then GW have done worse in the past!

 

As for Dreadclaws; I don't like them wholesale in the army but as a delivery system purely for Dreads I don't mind. Chaos Marines are already better than Marines and cheaper, they can't get all the toys as well! And Dreadclaws definitely shouldn't be better than Drop Pods!

[Kizzdougs]

And Dreadclaws definitely shouldn't be better than Drop Pods!

 

 

Why is that? Aren't Dread Claws an older technology and therefore superior? (i do understand that not all older tech is automatically better, ie. Thunderhawks and Stormbirds but most of the time it is the case).

 

I couldn't agree more with your idea for Tech-daemons. Maybe they could be like Arco-flagellants or mini Obliterators (mini Oblits might be a step too far).

[the jeske]

they are a different thing . they are landing crafts not pods . and as GW has the "no flyers in normal games" policy , then we wont see any of those outside FW rules or IA. you will now think , but why valks and vendettas where flyers too and IG got them as fast skimers ? well thing is GW will never give chaos skimers . Just like they will never give us plasma canons on troops or storm bolters.

[Master of fact]

I want to be able to field more than ONE viable list. <TOPIC>

[Legatus]

I'm gona just come out and say it; Cyber Daemons!

Like Juggernauts, Obliterators and the Soul Grinder?

 

 

they are a different thing . they are landing crafts not pods . and as GW has the "no flyers in normal games" policy , then we wont see any of those outside FW rules or IA.

I think that is about to change. I think I read a rumour that 2011 is the "year of the flyers" for GW, and every force will get a flyer. Blood Angels and Dark Eldar already have small aircraft in their new Codices. Not that I would approve of that change, though.

[Captain Idaho]

And Dreadclaws definitely shouldn't be better than Drop Pods!

 

 

Why is that? Aren't Dread Claws an older technology and therefore superior? (i do understand that not all older tech is automatically better, ie. Thunderhawks and Stormbirds but most of the time it is the case).

 

In that case, Chaos lascannons should be more accruate and bolters should have an extra +1 strength. Why not make Chaos get everything Marines get, only better?

 

Like Juggernauts, Obliterators and the Soul Grinder?

 

Kinda, only a bit more obviously flesh merged with metal like the Obliterators instead of all metal Juggernauts (that no-one takes) and the Soul Grinder.

[Brother Nihm]

And Dreadclaws definitely shouldn't be better than Drop Pods!

 

 

Why is that? Aren't Dread Claws an older technology and therefore superior? (i do understand that not all older tech is automatically better, ie. Thunderhawks and Stormbirds but most of the time it is the case).

 

In that case, Chaos lascannons should be more accruate and bolters should have an extra +1 strength. Why not make Chaos get everything Marines get, only better?

Yes, why not?

 

The majority of them are 10,000 years old, carry superior technology (e.g. their armour and some weapons), their machines (used to be in prior fluff) warp/daemon infused, many are backed up and/or blessed by actual gods, and many do have the experience of 10 millennia of waging war (or more, the warp y'know). Some Legions have the support of Dark AdMech, who aren't restricted by the tenets of the Omnissiah and have thus been able to further improve upon existing designs AND have over the course of the aforementioned millennia surely been able to invent something new. If Orks can scavenge on the TT, why can't Chaos Space Marines?

 

So yeah. Why not? :lol:

[Legatus]

The Great Crusade was not the high point of technological knowledge. The age of technology had already been long in the past, and humans were already dependant on discovering STCs during the Great Crusade (like Land Raiders or Land Speeders). Therefor "GC/HH era tech > later era tech" is not true. Other STCs have been discovered since back then, and several technologies were only barely implemented during the Great Crusad or the Heresy which became standard tech after the Heresy, like infantry carried Plasma Cannons, Assault Cannons, Multi Meltas, etc. In general, the tech is now better than it was during the time of the Great Crusade, not worse. GC/HH tech was simpler and thus more reliable under difficult conditions and easier to maintain. Modern tech is more efficient and more powerful, but also more difficult to maintain and to produce.

[the jeske]

I think I read a rumour that 2011 is the "year of the flyers" for GW, and every force will get a flyer.

you mean fast skimers just like vendetta ? problem is it wont work for dread claws , they cant be turned in to chaos skimers with deep strike abilty , not without making them 100pts+ which would also make them worthless for use [because the best what would could hope from AV of dreadclaws is one point higher then a normal pod]. and they would be huge , have no weapon systems [unlike the vendetta or storm reavens] . in 1500 list taking two would mean no support units , because unlike loyalist we dont have any cheap ones , it would be even worse If GW decides to put them in hvy support slots too.

 

 

 

The Great Crusade was not the high point of technological knowledge

0_o adults made sm for some legions , whole gene modifided "IG" armies something we dont see today. age of technology gear everywhere , better jump packs [or rather jet packs] for raptors which loyalist wouldnt even have if they didnt find the weaker less advanced version later . more powerful plasma cells . stuff that is relic level for loyalist today used commonly . I fail to see how it was more advanced . why because after the heresy wars and the destruction of many forge worlds and the whole mars civil war loyalist [not us] forgot how to put lascanons on their predators ?

[Hellios]

And Dreadclaws definitely shouldn't be better than Drop Pods!

 

 

Why is that? Aren't Dread Claws an older technology and therefore superior? (i do understand that not all older tech is automatically better, ie. Thunderhawks and Stormbirds but most of the time it is the case).

 

I couldn't agree more with your idea for Tech-daemons. Maybe they could be like Arco-flagellants or mini Obliterators (mini Oblits might be a step too far).

 

 

Errm I may be wrong here but I thought the dreadclaws were newer or at least were implemented into imperial designed later (I don't know when SCT were found) replacing the old drop pods because they are superior in almost everyway... aka they act like drop pods but can correct themselves to a greater extent, avoid AA fire and aircraft, can ferry troops once down on the battlefield and are able to return to their ships (I guess with troops inside) without using extra equipment such as thunderhawks.

 

Then in the HH they went nuts and started killing loyalist troops and so loyalists stopped using them and returned to the old fashion drop pods that didn't have the awesome AI.

[Legatus]

0_o adults made sm for some legions , whole gene modifided "IG" armies something we dont see today. age of technology gear everywhere , better jump packs [or rather jet packs] for raptors which loyalist wouldnt even have if they didnt find the weaker less advanced version later . more powerful plasma cells . stuff that is relic level for loyalist today used commonly .

I assume the involvement of the Emperor was largely responsible for the better understanding of genetics at that time, since he is usually credited with creating the Primarchs. I have never really heard about heresy-era jump packs being better than today's jump packs, so I assume that was the brain child of some BL author. I do remember when Chaos Marines did not even used to have jump packs at all.

Plasma cells were not more powerful, they were less refined, and had no safety precautions. In 2nd Edition traitor Plasma weapons had no recharge time, but could overheat and even explode with the effect of a plasma grenade. After the Heresy plasma technology was made safer, which meant a slower recharge, but loyalist plasma weapons did not overheat in 2nd Edition.

 

Here are a few descriptions from the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos:

 

When the Traitor Legions rebelled against the Emperor the far-flung Imperium was already in a state of flux as it tried to assimilate the lost knowledge and vast resources recaptured in the Great Crusade. the forces of the Adeptus Astartes were in the process of re-equipping their forces with the masses of newly forged armour and weaponry pouring out of the workshops of the Adeptus Mechanicus when Horus unleashed his Legions.

 

As a Result, the forces battling in the Horus Heresy fought with a mixture of the sometimes archaic armaments which they had used during the Great Crusade and previously unknown weapons based on arcane ancient technologies. Because the Traitor Legions were the ones that had advanced furthest from Terra they were among the last to receive new weapons and armour. This meant that the Space Marines fighting for Horus lacked many of the weapons which would be subsequently phased into the arsenals of the Imperium over the next millennia.

 

(...)

 

When the Legions began re-equipping, a number of weapons which would come to be in common use later were still experimental or even purely theoretical. Many other weapons relied on sciences that were barely understood but which had been found in ancient vaults of dark technology and copied for general use. For example, the Traitor Legions had no access to Melta Bombs or multi-meltas, but melta-guns were commonly available. likewise, portable (though dangerous) plasma guns and even pistols existed but the heavy plasma gun could only be mounted on a Dreadnought or a vehicle.

 

As a result the Legions were most heavily equipped with weapons which were well understood, solid and reliable. Autocannons were favoured as simple but deadly weapons that could be easily carried by a Space Marine in power armour. Heavy Bolters could cut a swathe through enemy troops, though they lacked the Hellfire shells the Adeptus Mechanicus developed ten millennia later to kill the genetically enhanced Tyranids.

 

Lascannon remained in use as the faithful tank killer they always had been and missile launchers were widely used because they could destroy both vehicles and troops with their different missiles, although Melta missiles were still unknown at that time. Targeters were bulky and prone to malfunctions so most heavy weapons were not fitted with them.

 

Conversely, the Space Marine Legions at the time of the Heresy used a more diverse variety of assault weapons from the Crusade, including power maces and chain-axes which have become virtually unknown in the Imperium in the 41st millennium. Power swords were an exception to this as the secrets of their manufacture were still lost, making any that were uncovered rare and valued artefacts. Blind Grenades, Photon Flash flares and Melta bombs were also exceptionally rare and seldom seen on the battlefield.

 

The weaponry used by Terminator squads was very different during the Heresy as tactical Dreadnought armour was still under developement at that time. Only after centuries more warfare did Terminators emerge armed with Assault cannon, storm bolters, Cyclone missile launchers and Thunder Hammers which became their hallmark within the Imperium.

p. 71-72

 

 

Over the course of the Horus Heresy the comby-bolter emerged as the most dependable and tactically flexible weapon. It was subsequently fitted with better ammo hoppers and its rate of fire was increased to create the storm bolter used by Imperial Terminator squads.

p. 73

 

 

The most successful early weapon was the Reaper autocannon, which was later developed into the fearsome Assault cannon which remains in use to this day. The Traitor Terminators, lacking the technology and equipment to maintain the notoriously fickle Assault cannon, still make use of the Reaper with its simpler mechanism and solid ammunition.

p. 73

 

 

At the time of the Horus Heresy plasma weapons technology was at a dangerous phase in its development. Plasma reactors were in limited use, and the giant weapons mounted on Titans and space ships were simple outgrowth of the systems needed to create reactors. Plasma guns and pistols which could be carried and used by a Space Marine in power armour were still prone to overheating and leaking energised plasma onto their unfortunate users. (...)

 

Towards the end of the Heresy the Tech-Priests of Mars solved the immediate problems of plasma weapons. By slowing the recharge mode of the weapons they found they could maintain the integrity of the magnetic field containing the energising plasma. This prevented the catastrophic leaks detonating the whole weapon and the slower recharge cycle also meant that the weapon's coolant system kept overheating to a minimum.

 

The resulting weapons were safe and reliable but suffered from a slow recharge rate which limited their effectiveness. Space Marine commanders were far from happy at the compromise but the number of catastrophic meltdowns experienced with older weapons made plasma too dangerous for the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes to continue using otherwise. (...)

 

Such a light of reason has never shone over the Traitor Legions. They still maintain and use the old, dangerous plasma weapons, perhaps revelling in the raw danger of doing so. Given the contempt held for life by Chaos Space Marines it's unlikely they would be willing to trade off less firepower for a safer wepaon anyway.

p. 74

 

Of course thee will be a few technologies that have been lost over the past 10,000 years, but in general the Space Marine equipment had become more advanced after the Heresy, not less so. Several equipment has been improved or even developed into new weapons. Older weapons have been phased out because the new versions are better, not because the technology to make them has been lost. Loyalists have advantages in bolter technology (storm bolters, extra ammunition like the Hellfire shells) plasma technology (carried plasma cannons, safe plasma weapons), melta technology (Multi-meltas, melta missiles, melta bombs), sensor technology (in 2nd Ed. all loyalist heavy weapons included targeters, giving the Marine +1 BS, while Traitor heavy weapons did not), armour technology (the Codex mentions how Traitors are still largely equipped with MK5 armour, while loyalists have advanced to MK6 or MK7), skimmer technology (abindant jump packs and land speeders) and have several more advanced weapons like the Assault cannon, the Cyclone missile launcher, power swords and thunder hammers.

 

Chaos technology is archaic, crude, simple, from a time when all the weapon technology was stil under development and was still being refined. Loyalists have benefited from all of those refinements and have advanced technology compared to the Traitors.

[maverike_prime]

And Dreadclaws definitely shouldn't be better than Drop Pods!

 

 

Why is that? Aren't Dread Claws an older technology and therefore superior? (i do understand that not all older tech is automatically better, ie. Thunderhawks and Stormbirds but most of the time it is the case).

 

I couldn't agree more with your idea for Tech-daemons. Maybe they could be like Arco-flagellants or mini Obliterators (mini Oblits might be a step too far).

 

 

Errm I may be wrong here but I thought the dreadclaws were newer or at least were implemented into imperial designed later (I don't know when SCT were found) replacing the old drop pods because they are superior in almost everyway... aka they act like drop pods but can correct themselves to a greater extent, avoid AA fire and aircraft, can ferry troops once down on the battlefield and are able to return to their ships (I guess with troops inside) without using extra equipment such as thunderhawks.

 

Then in the HH they went nuts and started killing loyalist troops and so loyalists stopped using them and returned to the old fashion drop pods that didn't have the awesome AI.

 

the current Space Marine Drop pod was standardized in response to mounting reports of "accidents" involing the Dreadclaw assault boats. The Drop Pod were just coming into main line use when the Heresy erupted. Most loyalists captain with Dreadclaws in their inventory got rid of them, some of them simply jettisoning them into space.

[Brother Nihm]

Chaos technology is archaic, crude, simple, from a time when all the weapon technology was stil under development and was still being refined. Loyalists have benefited from all of those refinements and have advanced technology compared to the Traitors.

Chaos technology may be archaic but it is also often imbued with the powers of the Warp and/or blessed by the Chaos Gods and have endured for hundreds if not thousand years of use and to this day some of it is still superior to present day tech.

[Legatus]

Chaos technology may be archaic but it is also often imbued with the powers of the Warp and/or blessed by the Chaos Gods

That's why Chaos armour is better than power armour, or why possessed vehicles are more resistant to damage. But that is not standard equipment for Traitor Marines. It is more comparable to artificer equipment of loyalist Marines.

 

 

and to this day some of it is still superior to present day tech.

I just posted a wall of text explaining that this is largely and generally not the case, and that this will be rare exceptions.

 

 

Edit: Of course Chaos forces have the odd powerful relic or daemoninfused weapon, and the Chaos codices usually do enclude such items. But I think the discussion was more about general equipment such as unit weaponry.

[Chengar Qordath]

Chaos technology is archaic, crude, simple, from a time when all the weapon technology was stil under development and was still being refined. Loyalists have benefited from all of those refinements and have advanced technology compared to the Traitors.

Chaos technology may be archaic but it is also often imbued with the powers of the Warp and/or blessed by the Chaos Gods and have endured for hundreds if not thousand years of use and to this day some of it is still superior to present day tech.

It does also bear mentioning that, when it comes to Chaos tech being superior, that superiorty often comes at the cost of efficiency. For example, the Raptor jump packs have perform a bit better than loyalist ones, but the Raptor is a lot harder to build/maintain and burns through fuel much faster.

[AoC]

And Dreadclaws definitely shouldn't be better than Drop Pods!

 

 

Why is that? Aren't Dread Claws an older technology and therefore superior? (i do understand that not all older tech is automatically better, ie. Thunderhawks and Stormbirds but most of the time it is the case).

 

In that case, Chaos lascannons should be more accruate and bolters should have an extra +1 strength. Why not make Chaos get everything Marines get, only better?

 

Like Juggernauts, Obliterators and the Soul Grinder?

 

Kinda, only a bit more obviously flesh merged with metal like the Obliterators instead of all metal Juggernauts (that no-one takes) and the Soul Grinder.

 

Solution is obvious then, make Juggernauts that are actually worth taking, and made them squad option (for chosen ?).

 

@OP: Flexible codex, where chaos space marines are better and more expensive than loyalists and all unit are worth taking.

[Chengar Qordath]

Solution is obvious then, make Juggernauts that are actually worth taking, and made them squad option (for chosen ?).

A Chaos daemon cavalry unit would be a nice and reasonably fluff-sensible option to add to Fast Attack; as the Daemon codex shows, Juggernauts can be very effective when they're fielded in units instead of only being an option for HQs.

[Boshea]

Space Marine Tactical Squad-111

9 Marines, Sergeant, Meltagun, and Missile Launcher

 

Chaos Marines-185

9 Marines, Champion, Meltagun, and Missile Launcher

 

I want 74 points to get me more than an extra attack.

 

Edit-Didn't read the marine codex right. Should have been 175 10 points for an extra attack isn't bad.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

Why not make Chaos get everything Marines get, only better?

 

But then we'd be taking the niche from the Space Wolves.

 

A Chaos daemon cavalry unit would be a nice and reasonably fluff-sensible option to add to Fast Attack; as the Daemon codex shows, Juggernauts can be very effective when they're fielded in units instead of only being an option for HQs.

 

Yeah I think this would be cool. In my fandex I made them start out as basic Cavalry that can upgrade to different God-Marked Steeds, Bikes, or Jetbikes (last one is iffy, but the document is pretty wild).