What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[Captain Idaho]

The reason Chaos Marines shouldn't get everything Space Marines get and be better for it is because that would make collecting Space Marines pointless. It's the same situation we have with Chaos Marines players collecting Blood Angels or Space Wolves count as armies because their Codex doesn't give them what they want.

 

In the fluff the Chaos Marines can't dominate the Imperium because they are up against a near endless number of Guardsman, tanks and hardware, the Imperial Navy being the strongest Navy in the galaxy and because loyalist Space Marines have got the resources Chaos Marines haven't. These things can't be represented easily in 40k, therefore GW needs to do something else to represent it. This means giving Chaos Marines weapons and equipment that is different to their loyalist counter parts.

 

So there is why not. :)

 

But then we'd be taking the niche from the Space Wolves.

 

Ha very good!

[Brother Nihm]

It's the same situation we have with Chaos Marines players collecting Blood Angels or Space Wolves count as armies because their Codex doesn't give them variety and flavour.

Fixed. ;)

[Hellios]

The reason Chaos Marines shouldn't get everything Space Marines get and be better for it is because that would make collecting Space Marines pointless. It's the same situation we have with Chaos Marines players collecting Blood Angels or Space Wolves count as armies because their Codex doesn't give them what they want.

 

Death in the name of the false emperor is pointless.

 

I would also like to point out that this also applies for chapter specific codices... as a Dark Angels player the current codex Space Marines and Codex Space Wolves makes me a sad panda. It seems that we have little to make us different. In the past we had mortis dreadnoughts (DA only), ravenwing, deathwing and lots of plasma :rolleyes: (not saying that plasma thing was a good move). Now everyone has plasma (fair enough I say), vanilla marines can do all bikes, space wolves can do loads of terminators oh and we can't do any mortis pattern dreadnoughts but other chapters can? Well at least we can do double-wing...

 

If your point is that people playing night lords as blood angels takes away from blood angels playing blood angels (I use this as an example because of the other thread) then what about DIY chapters even someone who has always used blood angels rules (AKA they haven't done it so they can swop codices) or Blood Angel 2nd foundings... are they ok to use with codex blood angels or will that make blood angels pointless?

 

If you had asked me what I thought about counts as in 3rd and 4th edition when we had all the mini-dexes and chapter approved I would have been against it except where someone was doing something that had no appropriate codex or where an army was very well executed. Part of the reason for this was that Salalmanders had their own rules, so did white scars and Iron Hands as did the chaos legions.... So if people wanted to play those armies that was cool and if they wanted to use those rules that was also great. If they had another chapter be it Ultramarines or the "Sons of DIY" then you just played as normal marines unless you actually descended from one of those special chapters... You couldn't play Crimson fists but use salamanders rules... which you can basically do with this horrid HQ system.

 

Hell thats why I hate these new universal special characters is that allowing everyone to use Vulkan detracts from the salamanders as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

Now however GW has sucked a lot of the flavour and variety out of the rules set (not that I'm saying that streamlining is a bad thing but I do not think they have executed it well in every case) so I say in 5th edition that counts as is great... When playing against serious chaos players most of the lists seem to be pretty similiar... So it adds to my enjoyment of the game when I come across a chaos army that plays in a different manner... even if it is counts as blood angels... It might not be so interesting if I've played a number of similiar blood angels lists recently but at least it will give me a new paint scheme to look at.

 

As I've said many times during 3rd and 4th edition chaos under 3.5 dex was my favourite codex to play against even though a third of the group I played in used chaos armies. Why? Because out of the 9 I played often (same as the number of legions <_<) The black legion, Alpha legion, Word Bearers, Emperors Children & Death Guard lists were all totally different. The 4 World Eaters lists had more in common but not all entirely the same.

[Captain Idaho]

No my point was Chaos Marines have been played as non-Chaos Marine Codex books because their own Codex sucks and if we gave all the toys to Chaos Marines and made them better and cheaper then we will have this same thread repeated for Space Marines (like it has already been done for Dark Angels).

 

@ Brother Nihm: Ha! Yes that is what I was partly referring to though the above problem would occur if Chaos Marines had everything Loyalists had plus their Chaotic stuff that would make collecting Space Marines pointless. I see your grand Chaotic plan! You are trying to promote this occurance so there are no Loyalist players and GW will write them out of 40k and give Chaos a diabolical victory!

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

Now however GW has sucked a lot of the flavour and variety out of the rules set (not that I'm saying that streamlining is a bad thing but I do not think they have executed it well in every case) so I say in 5th edition that counts as is great... When playing against serious chaos players most of the lists seem to be pretty similiar... So it adds to my enjoyment of the game when I come across a chaos army that plays in a different manner... even if it is counts as blood angels... It might not be so interesting if I've played a number of similiar blood angels lists recently but at least it will give me a new paint scheme to look at.

 

As I've said many times during 3rd and 4th edition chaos under 3.5 dex was my favourite codex to play against even though a third of the group I played in used chaos armies. Why? Because out of the 9 I played often (same as the number of legions ;)) The black legion, Alpha legion, Word Bearers, Emperors Children & Death Guard lists were all totally different. The 4 World Eaters lists had more in common but not all entirely the same.

 

This is a large part of the main point in my opinion. I have heard and read on many occasions that the curred Dex is for "traitor" chapters post-second founding. Surely, those players would be better off playing the current C:SM codex with a little bit of a mix and match from the current Dex in order to add a chaos flavour. To just use our current codex would just be to own a watered down, darker mix loyalist army. With traitor chapters using the current book, they lose Whirlwinds, Drop Pods etc and gain Possessed, Obliterators and Defilers. Almost as if they all sat round a fire, decided to follow chaos and just said "leave all of that cool stuff here lads, the orginial traitors didn't use that so we won't. If they wanted to do a traitor book, fine, but leave all of the flavour of older stuff, access to limited tech that wasn't so widely used 10,000 years ago such as terminator armour, drop pods etc and make it wholesome, dark fun.

 

There are two arguements that seem to flow through this topic, one is that the 3.5 dex was a unfortunately popular mistake in the eyes of GW, and one that the current codex is fine. Both points are valid but the quasi-arguement that we aren't going to get a lot of the needed depth for each of the 9 original traitor chapters inside the current allocated "page count" for codex currently adopted by GW.

 

Personally, I find this a pathetic excuse for not doing a job properly. There is Codex:Space Marines, Codex:Ultramarines, Codex:Blood Angels, Codex:Space Wolves and albeit out of date, Codex:Dark Angels. So why could GW not decide to say "we've spent hours upon hours designing several books for the same flavour of ice cream, each with a little twist, why can't we spend a little time doing something a little bigger on a darker version of ice cream which has many twists"? And I don't want anyone giving me the idea that economic factors are an issue, whereby more people buy imperial SM stuff than Chaos. Do more people collect Space Wolves than Chaos? I'm guessing not, and if that were to be the case, it's probably because of many people I knew who were so excited at school 15 years ago at the release of 2nd Ed codex who I ask now if they still collect Chaos, all answer with "no, it's cr@p now". Chaos was once one of their biggest money spinners as there was so much excitement and detail to it with many ideas of lists, all of which were plausable to win battles, or at least "fun".

 

Make something more marketable and you may make more money from it.

 

On with what could actually go in this dex that would give it more flavour; special characters that affect their troops in the same way that loyalist marine and even guard special characters do. You can even get that from the Daemon dex. Yes, the orginal founding traitors need more teeth, more snap, more interest. Something along the lines of the 3.5 dex would be good, without the complications, overt limits on "no X, Y or Z for this lot" except for obvious. I always liked to see each of the armies people would create for individual chapters, and their brilliance they could emblazen on a table top from conversions and paint work. I also saw a couple of "Black Legion" with each of the original traitors encompassed within to show the diversity under Abaddon or one of his "leiutenants", which inspired me for my current paint system. GW have worked so hard to make each of those legions so full of life, detail and interest that they deserve more than they currently have.

 

Not only from the stance that gameplay would be more interesting, but from the stance that letting people have a similar level of opportunity to some of the fantastic models now available. Our Dread model is 15 years old and was ugly then. Looking at what a fantastic job GW has done with new models of late such as the new daemons, space wolves and our possessed and basic marines, do we not deserve to have rules to show all of these differences off on a table top and not on a shelf full of amazing ideas, conversions and paintwork (my own withstanding as my painting skill is akin to that of someone who can only write their name in crayon)?

 

In short, my only wish is for each person to either take a newer (second founding onwards) traitor army and give it some sprinkles and a twist, or take an older, original traitor legion army with its own flavour, or mix of flavours. Chaos is more Jamie Oliver than Gordon Ramsey and currently, there is too much Gordon (minus the effing and jeffing) and not enough Jamie (minus the oversized tongue and cockney accent).

[AoC]

No my point was Chaos Marines have been played as non-Chaos Marine Codex books because their own Codex sucks and if we gave all the toys to Chaos Marines and made them better and cheaper then we will have this same thread repeated for Space Marines (like it has already been done for Dark Angels).

I don't know why you try strawman with better and cheaper. Chaos clearly should be better and more expensive. So from gameplay perspective it would look like Chaos Marines > Inferior Marines that follow the corpse > Guard. Depends how much you want to pay for regular trooper.

[the jeske]

oh god plz not the 3ed JJ dex again where we paid an arm and a leg for upgrades that did nothing or almost nothing.

 

there is only one way for our new dex to look like and be more or less accepted by all people . the 3.5 wont come back , the IA wont come back , there will be no legion rules unless GW realy changes their desing policy . What we can get is some squad upgrades ala telion , loki etc and maybe get 2-3 mor specials [for example if our HQs get cut to 1 and being a DP or sorc will be an upgrade to a lord] and those new [maybe some old too . like Khârn allowing a zerker army or lucius allowing a NM army] ones will change the FoC , probably doing something with our possessed/bikers , maybe raptors [and not only because GW offten try to buff stuff that didnt sell well in the last dex]. Now of course all those changes dont mean that our dex will be good . a simple point cost change , nerfing of oblits with keeping the number of our other support units that same[aka close to 0] could well make for a even more sucktastic dex. But hey that is normal , there are no chaos players or fans in the DT that could do the dex and we are not SW or sm to be sure our dex will be awesome.

[A D-B]

You make some great points, dude - but this isn't one of them:

 

Do more people collect Space Wolves than Chaos?

 

Yes. By miles.

 

If they're literally not the most popular Chapter (not counting all standard Space Marine sales as "Ultramarine sales") then I will eat my Force FX Replica Mace Windu Lightsaber.

 

Even the topic numbers on the B&C sort of back that up. The Space Wolf forum has 4 times as much activity as the Chaos one.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Do more people collect Space Wolves than Chaos?

 

Yes. By miles.

 

If they're literally not the most popular Chapter (not counting all standard Space Marine sales as "Ultramarine sales") then I will eat my Force FX Replica Mace Windu Lightsaber.

 

Even the topic numbers on the B&C sort of back that up. The Space Wolf forum has 4 times as much activity as the Chaos one.

 

Even the Templar forum has more activity than the Chaos one, I don't think you can relatively judge from that though I do agree that the Space Wolves tie for the lead with the Blood Angels - for whatever reason.

 

Useless Info: Did you know that supposedly Mace Windu had a purple lightsaber because Mr Jackson asked that he be given a unique colour as part of his terms for accepting a part in the movie.

[A D-B]

Do more people collect Space Wolves than Chaos?

 

Yes. By miles.

 

If they're literally not the most popular Chapter (not counting all standard Space Marine sales as "Ultramarine sales") then I will eat my Force FX Replica Mace Windu Lightsaber.

 

Even the topic numbers on the B&C sort of back that up. The Space Wolf forum has 4 times as much activity as the Chaos one.

 

Even the Templar forum has more activity than the Chaos one, I don't think you can relatively judge from that though I do agree that the Space Wolves tie for the lead with the Blood Angels - for whatever reason.

 

Useless Info: Did you know that supposedly Mace Windu had a purple lightsaber because Mr Jackson asked that he be given a unique colour as part of his terms for accepting a part in the movie.

 

S'a true story. In Episode II's extras, you can see him ask that. He goes over to Lucas (with Ahmed Best, I think) and says "No purple?" in a conversation about what colour lightsabers are going around. And Lucas says "...you might get purple."

 

It's sort of adorable.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Do more people collect Space Wolves than Chaos?

 

Yes. By miles.

 

If they're literally not the most popular Chapter (not counting all standard Space Marine sales as "Ultramarine sales") then I will eat my Force FX Replica Mace Windu Lightsaber.

 

Even the topic numbers on the B&C sort of back that up. The Space Wolf forum has 4 times as much activity as the Chaos one.

 

Even the Templar forum has more activity than the Chaos one, I don't think you can relatively judge from that though I do agree that the Space Wolves tie for the lead with the Blood Angels - for whatever reason.

 

Useless Info: Did you know that supposedly Mace Windu had a purple lightsaber because Mr Jackson asked that he be given a unique colour as part of his terms for accepting a part in the movie.

 

S'a true story. In Episode II's extras, you can see him ask that. He goes over to Lucas (with Ahmed Best, I think) and says "No purple?" in a conversation about what colour lightsabers are going around. And Lucas says "...you might get purple."

 

It's sort of adorable.

 

I find it hard to equate Samuel L Jackson as Mace Windu to a bunny rabbit.. But yeah :)

 

I prefer the novels to the movies to be honest; if you're a Star Wars fan you need to read Shatterpoint - despite how some people disparge the fiction of the universe.

[A D-B]

I prefer the novels to the movies to be honest; if you're a Star Wars fan you need to read Shatterpoint - despite how some people disparge the fiction of the universe.

 

This is true. Great book, as this handsome devil shows:

 

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5005/5321456130_ac38ee8c9b.jpg

 

Back on topic, there's one thing I'm ultra-keen about making it into any future Chaos Codex. I love Raptors (the current models are great, but the art of them is even better, like: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2010..._Raptor_Art.jpg, and I loved the idea of Raptor Cults. I really, really would like to see more of them.

 

It saddens me that this is not a popular opinion. I see a lot of peeps ripping on Raptors, which kinda sucks. I love how different they are from Assault Marines.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

This is true. Great book, as this handsome devil shows...

 

Part of me fears that you've had the picture ready for a moment like this...

 

Back on topic, there's one thing I'm ultra-keen about making it into any future Chaos Codex. I love Raptors (the current models are great, but the art of them is even better, like: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2010..._Raptor_Art.jpg, and I loved the idea of Raptor Cults. I really, really would like to see more of them.

 

It saddens me that this is not a popular opinion. I see a lot of peeps ripping on Raptors, which kinda sucks. I love how different they are from Assault Marines.

 

Raptors have a bad PR machine; the only references I've seen players make to them is that they're like suckier Assault Marines - if that's possible.

 

The trouble with alot of concepts is that alot has been done or pointed at in the past and people have preconcieved notions about any future contact with it - such as Raptors.

 

Another thing about Raptors is that whole Night Lords = Raptors thing.

[Legatus]

This is true. Great book, as this handsome devil shows:

+10 geek cred

 

 

I loved the idea of Raptor Cults. I really, really would like to see more of them.

Do you mean you want an army of Raptors or different types of Raptors, or do you mean you would prefer if they were distinct from Assault Marines and not just Chaos Marines with jump packs?

[A D-B]

Do you mean you want an army of Raptors or different types of Raptors, or do you mean you would prefer if they were distinct from Assault Marines and not just Chaos Marines with jump packs?

 

Good question. I meant the latter. I like the idea of 10,000 (or whatever) years of battle turning the proto-Assault Marines from the Heresy into the freaks with better jump-tech and accompanying attitude problems that the fluff/lore has them as today. I love that stuff. I'd like them to be more vicious and scary than Assault Marines, though at a cost of (f'rex) any ranged firepower. I'm not suggesting any real changes ('cuz I've not even tried to think of any) but I really, really would like them to be different to Assault Marines.

 

I also love the idea that many of them have lessened their ties to their Legions, and are essentially involved with their cult/squadmates above all other bonds. Like, a pack of Raptors would still consider themselves World Eaters, sure, but they take greater pride in being Raptors first and foremost, and follow cult bonds over any other. Chaos Champions having to petition the leaders of Raptor Cults for their services strikes me as unbelievably cool.

[Hellios]

You make some great points, dude - but this isn't one of them:

 

Do more people collect Space Wolves than Chaos?

 

Yes. By miles.

 

If they're literally not the most popular Chapter (not counting all standard Space Marine sales as "Ultramarine sales") then I will eat my Force FX Replica Mace Windu Lightsaber.

 

Even the topic numbers on the B&C sort of back that up. The Space Wolf forum has 4 times as much activity as the Chaos one.

 

Someone told me that after space marine sales in the age of the 3.5 dex chaos had the most sales. Certainly used to see more chaos armies at that time (personally) than SW armies although I admit at the time I might have been drinking and so may not have been watching the whole world as closely as I should.

 

Now... are space wolves more popular? It wouldn't surprise me... chaos is at a low point and Space Wolves have a very strong dex... I've seen a number of people rank it second in their cheese selection... Normally beaten by the Imperial guard... some times blood angels get placed higher up as well but I almost always see space wolves in the top 3 of nasty armies... at least as far as the Interwebs in concerned.

 

From a fluff point it would concern me if space wolves got more love than all the chaos forces combined... we may be evil... but we need love as well. Chaos by its very nature should have more flavour than anyone else.

[the jeske]

Raptors have a bad PR machine; the only references I've seen players make to them is that they're like suckier Assault Marines - if that's possible.

oh let me help you with that.

 

Regular RAS in sm dex. possible buff chara[not saying good] same number of attacks ATSKNF , combat tactics , possible buff from specials .

 

 

BA RAS. SCORING , possible FC, buff characters everywhere [elite chappies , SP etc] DoA , ATSKNF , same arment as our guys [2 specials etc] .

 

 

Raptors can buy icons to buff themselfs , are csm without a rhino and those icons can die . no buff characters no nothing.

 

 

yes it is possible to suck more then regular assault sm , but at least we can be happy that the SW ones are much worse[smaller unit size , cant buy a vet , costed like bikers which can have superior gear] . Which of course SW can ignore because they have more then one viable option for each of the possible slots that can be taken [ok so not for troops , but at least they have more then one set up. ]

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Raptors have a bad PR machine; the only references I've seen players make to them is that they're like suckier Assault Marines - if that's possible.

oh let me help you with that.

 

Regular RAS in sm dex. possible buff chara[not saying good] same number of attacks ATSKNF , combat tactics , possible buff from specials .

 

 

BA RAS. SCORING , possible FC, buff characters everywhere [elite chappies , SP etc] DoA , ATSKNF , same arment as our guys [2 specials etc] .

 

 

Raptors can buy icons to buff themselfs , are csm without a rhino and those icons can die . no buff characters no nothing.

 

 

yes it is possible to suck more then regular assault sm , but at least we can be happy that the SW ones are much worse[smaller unit size , cant buy a vet , costed like bikers which can have superior gear] . Which of course SW can ignore because they have more then one viable option for each of the possible slots that can be taken [ok so not for troops , but at least they have more then one set up. ]

 

Trouble is, even in fairest terms.. Against a 5^th Edition Codex they will suck.

[Brother Nihm]

oh let me help you with that.

 

Regular RAS in sm dex. possible buff chara[not saying good] same number of attacks ATSKNF , combat tactics , possible buff from specials .

 

 

BA RAS. SCORING , possible FC, buff characters everywhere [elite chappies , SP etc] DoA , ATSKNF , same arment as our guys [2 specials etc] .

 

 

Raptors can buy icons to buff themselfs , are csm without a rhino and those icons can die . no buff characters no nothing.

 

 

yes it is possible to suck more then regular assault sm , but at least we can be happy that the SW ones are much worse[smaller unit size , cant buy a vet , costed like bikers which can have superior gear] . Which of course SW can ignore because they have more then one viable option for each of the possible slots that can be taken [ok so not for troops , but at least they have more then one set up. ]

You hit the nail on the head sir, current Raptors are junk.

 

It saddens me that this is not a popular opinion. I see a lot of peeps ripping on Raptors, which kinda sucks. I love how different they are from Assault Marines.

Believe you me when I say that I would want NOTHING MORE than to see viable + fluffy Raptors on the tabletop. ;)

 

It would mean that I could dust off my 40+ model Raptor cult again (which is currently lingering in the deathless pit that is my basement).

[nurglez]

I miss my nurglings and nurgle's rot on plague marine champs!

 

Seriously, I think the main reason the chaos forum is so quiet is because, well, we dont have anything to discuss (I spend more time in the space wolf forum, due to me collecting my renegade logan wing as i'm bored of chaos).

 

There are really only several viable army builds (dp or 2, some troops in rhinos, and oblitorators/havocs defiler/vindicator). anything else isn't cost effective enough to warrant taking, you can make other lists but then they aren't fun enough to equal out the lesser abilities.

 

I'd welcome with open arms a space marine codex style list, where taking certain named chars will alter your force org or add special rules to certain choices, I'd also like some psychic defence in my chaos army.

 

I miss my nurglings and nurgle's rot on plague marine champs!

 

Seriously, I think the main reason the chaos forum is so quiet is because, well, we dont have anything to discuss (I spend more time in the space wolf forum, due to me collecting my renegade logan wing as i'm bored of chaos).

 

There are really only several viable army builds (dp or 2, some troops in rhinos, and oblitorators/havocs defiler/vindicator). anything else isn't cost effective enough to warrant taking, you can make other lists but then they aren't fun enough to equal out the lesser abilities.

 

I'd welcome with open arms a space marine codex style list, where taking certain named chars will alter your force org or add special rules to certain choices, I'd also like some psychic defence in my chaos army.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Easy fix for Raptors: Hit & Run + Scoring like BAs + 16 points per model. I'd field veritable murders of them.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Raptors need to cause Morale checks at the end of the assualt phase, and be able to buy morale penalty upgrades.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

It would mean that I could dust off my 40+ model Raptor cult again (which is currently lingering in the deathless pit that is my basement).

 

They're a Raptor Cult.. Shouldn't they be in the attic?

[Brother Nihm]

It would mean that I could dust off my 40+ model Raptor cult again (which is currently lingering in the deathless pit that is my basement).

 

They're a Raptor Cult.. Shouldn't they be in the attic?

They should, but I don't have one!

[Captain Juan Juarez]

It would mean that I could dust off my 40+ model Raptor cult again (which is currently lingering in the deathless pit that is my basement).

 

They're a Raptor Cult.. Shouldn't they be in the attic?

They should, but I don't have one!

 

Shame on you, sirrah!