What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[Frater Uriah]

Raptors need to cause Morale checks at the end of the assualt phase, and be able to buy morale penalty upgrades.

I don't know about causing a morale check, per se, but they should cause the opponent to incur a Leadership penalty, should he need to take a morale save after close combat. In all the Raptor fluff, these guys come screaming down, grabbing people in their claws and flying off with them, scaring the everloving :cuss out of whomever they've chosen to victimise.

 

So, I vote Hit and Run and a Leadership penalty to the enemy for Raptors. Because, right now, jumping on the bandwagon, current Raptors are crap, and they shouldn't be.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

There are really only several viable army builds (dp or 2, some troops in rhinos, and oblitorators/havocs defiler/vindicator). anything else isn't cost effective enough to warrant taking, you can make other lists but then they aren't fun enough to equal out the lesser abilities.

 

This is a brilliant point that tags on to my earlier post (I'll try to keep this shorter...) - Chaos used to be fun. 2nd ed - You could field an army list made up of, what a friend of mine once referred to as, "brightly painted dog cr@p", as I did on occasion, that looked dubious at best. Yet you were guaranteed some odd results that could go any way. You could wipe the floor with someone with some luck and fortune, you could get your backside handed to you in a sling; it was enjoyable.

 

People preferred playing against it, people enjoyed paying it.

 

On another point, I think the Raptor issue is a big one, as is the bikers. It's an oft-made point, but you would think 10,000 years experience would give them some edge, and may make them nearer the points costs as their loyalist counterparts, as well as some oddities of add ons. I like the idea of "hit and run" for raptors, but i'd also like to see some plastics released. I got bought a box as a present once, but i'd never buy some myself as I feel the Termies are much better value for money. More personalisation of the squad and they look much nicer, for the same price. But that's not for the codex discussion I guess...

[Full Metal Racket]

I gave up on the chaos army list a long time ago (3-4 years) too much got changed, it was like starting a new army all over again.

A new chaos codex every 3-4 years is a joke and they still haven't got it right.

I'll stick to modeling and painting.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I gave up on the chaos army list a long time ago (3-4 years) too much got changed, it was like starting a new army all over again.

A new chaos codex every 3-4 years is a joke and they still haven't got it right.

I'll stick to modeling and painting.

 

There are days I wonder if that's not the smartest of all possible moves, given the amount of heartburn the game causes. ;)

[nurglez]

in relation to my earlier point, about not being enough builds that are fun enough to balance out the lesser abilities, I'm playing "pure" logan wing at the moment, it has its pro's and its con's, but it is fun, an all terminator army at 1500 points is almost always out numbered (I have 22 models and 3 drop pods) but it is fun enough to balance out the fact they aren't as point efficient as they could be.

 

My "pure" deathguard has a 7 win 1 loss ratio, but I really only have 1 or 2 ways of playing it, and thus I am bored of using it, the only troops I allow myself to take is plague marines, and while they are nice, if we had plague marine chosen, or havocs, I would be able to collect and play my army in many varied ways and would thus take more enjoyment out of it...

[Warsmith Aznable]

I like the idea of "hit and run" for raptors, but i'd also like to see some plastics released. I got bought a box as a present once, but i'd never buy some myself as I feel the Termies are much better value for money. More personalisation of the squad and they look much nicer, for the same price. But that's not for the codex discussion I guess...

 

I feel this, since I almost posted it myself earlier. I've got Berzerkers wearing loyalist jump packs for my Raptors because I hate spending the money and working with metal minis.

[Captain Idaho]

No my point was Chaos Marines have been played as non-Chaos Marine Codex books because their own Codex sucks and if we gave all the toys to Chaos Marines and made them better and cheaper then we will have this same thread repeated for Space Marines (like it has already been done for Dark Angels).

I don't know why you try strawman with better and cheaper. Chaos clearly should be better and more expensive. So from gameplay perspective it would look like Chaos Marines > Inferior Marines that follow the corpse > Guard. Depends how much you want to pay for regular trooper.

 

Who’s making strawman arguments? Chaos Marines are cheaper than loyalists at present and are better. For the purpose of my example, you can’t have everything only better because every army needs a “hook” to pull in sales.

 

Chaos Marines should be better than Loyalists only in the aspect they are often more experienced and sometimes more vicious (depending on who they are of course). The Veteran skills did this best. Previous editions had them equal to Loyalist Marines, which is good as it gave the ability to have “normal” Space Marines who are newer to the whole Chaos scene than the original traitors. But the ability to add Veteran Skills essentially allowed a player to represent their more experienced Traitors in game.

 

But alas, I don’t think we will see that anytime in the future, so I guess we will have to make do with the silly extra attack.

[Rik Riorik]

Whilst I am not a big fan of Special Characters I would hope that they introduce one or more new ones for the next Codex. It is getting a bit stale seeing the same rehashed foursome with the addition of one or more rehashed baddies from previous books. And would it be too much to ask for an update to the models for some of these sheisters? Abaddon has looked the same for ages now and whilst certain elements of him are good enough others are quite drab (2 mile high topknot and bad sword pose).

[AoC]

Who’s making strawman arguments? Chaos Marines are cheaper than loyalists at present and are better. For the purpose of my example, you can’t have everything only better because every army needs a “hook” to pull in sales.

 

Chaos Marines should be better than Loyalists only in the aspect they are often more experienced and sometimes more vicious (depending on who they are of course). The Veteran skills did this best. Previous editions had them equal to Loyalist Marines, which is good as it gave the ability to have “normal” Space Marines who are newer to the whole Chaos scene than the original traitors. But the ability to add Veteran Skills essentially allowed a player to represent their more experienced Traitors in game.

 

But alas, I don’t think we will see that anytime in the future, so I guess we will have to make do with the silly extra attack.

Last time i checked Grey Hunters are loyalist space marines. And they are better and cheaper than chaos marines.

 

Chaos don't need everything that SM get, but certainly need some obvious things like drop pods.

 

Veteran skills never really worked in 3.5.

 

Problem with chaos really lies in shortcoming of 40k core game rules, that are unable to deliver proper differences between chaos and loyalists. Rules are just not good enough to catch variety.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Last time i checked Grey Hunters are loyalist space marines.

 

Last time I checked Grey Hunters are available in only one Codex.

[Captain Idaho]

Last time i checked Grey Hunters are loyalist space marines. And they are better and cheaper than chaos marines.

 

Chaos don't need everything that SM get, but certainly need some obvious things like drop pods.

 

Veteran skills never really worked in 3.5.

 

Problem with chaos really lies in shortcoming of 40k core game rules, that are unable to deliver proper differences between chaos and loyalists. Rules are just not good enough to catch variety.

 

Space Wolves work very differently to Space Marines, hence why they get different points considerations. If Chaos Marines got exactly the same stuff they shouldn't be cheaper too (like Blood Angels)!

 

Hence why GW need to reintroduce Veteran skills. They did work by the way, just were unbalanced. Is it a stretch to think they could balance them if re-working them?

[the jeske]

Veteran skills never really worked in 3.5.

0_o yes because infiltration didnt make whole builds and tank hunter didnt make havocks viable , just to name two examples.

[Alys]

I love the look of the Raptors, but it seems that unless you take a minimum squad with two meltas to throw away, they are practically useless. It's a shame.

 

I've just got into Chaos, and wondering if I've done a bad thing. If there's only x amount of builds that work (2 DP, troops in rhinos, 2 oblits/tank) then, what's the point of playing?

[Brother Nihm]

Veteran skills never really worked in 3.5.

0_o yes because infiltration didnt make whole builds and tank hunter didnt make havocks viable , just to name two examples.

Yep. Vet skills worked too well, one of the reasons they got 'nixed I bet.

[Legatus]

Loyalists lost theirs as well (Terminators and veterans were able to get either 'Tank Hunters' or 'Furious Charge', while Veterans could also get 'Inflitrate', and it was possible to get Assault Squads with 'Furious Charge' and Devastator squads with 'Tank Hunters'). And perhaps someone at GW thought that allowing Chaos Marines to infiltrate their entire army was not a very balanced idea.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

perhaps someone at GW thought that allowing Chaos Marines to infiltrate their entire army was not a very balanced idea.

 

So it may be, but then put a 2 squad limit on such skills. Personally, I don't see even the fluff reason for having a whole squad infiltrating etc. Again, maybe this is one of those "oversights" in the same way as they didn't think anyone would take 2 DPs and 3 squads of Oblits.

 

And by "oversight", I mean "short sight". If you can't see the possibility that if you don't put in limits and you can't see that people will take advantage of there being no barriers then your game designing days should be numbered... in single figures. But then I'm saying that off of the end of a very bad week at work...

[subtlebrush]

Hmmm Raptor Cults would be a wonderful idea, give them more suitable abilities like the Hit and Run and maybe a Banshee type morale ability (and keeping the ability to have 3 assault weapons as well). Maybe bringing back the option for Vet skills army wide would be nice too. If they are going to give us an army of bitter old corrupted Space Marines they should give them the ability to have things like Infiltrate, Furious Charge or Tank Hunter again, that way you can distinguish between the Renegades and the Legions and give the standard Chaos Space Marine something over his Tactical Loyalist Cousin. Oh and a better thought out set of Psychic powers would be nice too, just sayin'......

 

Edit: I also agree with Chaos Lord Shamrockius and limiting the army wide abilities to 1-2. Maybe more so on Infiltrate. Furious Charge and Tank Hunter should be less limited.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Yes, because the idea of Deep Striking an entire army isn't imbalancing. :angry:

[the jeske]

And perhaps someone at GW thought that allowing Chaos Marines to infiltrate their entire army was not a very balanced idea.

only most of the traits were either build in to specials[bikes as troops, termis as troops , dread builds , apothecaries for BA etc ] or build in to armies [2 specials, ccw+pistol for BA] and those dex came out before and after our dex. + how is full infiltration different from drop pod assault [aside from it being bit better because pods cost the same but also bloc LoS] . A full infiltration army like as stealer build for nids is there and is it broken ? nope it sucks , because SW have double choser to make those kind of builds not viable .

 

 

Yep. Vet skills worked too well, one of the reasons they got 'nixed I bet.

I dont think they were cut because of being too good . vet skills never were broken and even in the 5th , if a lot would plain suck . they cut them because they were cuting everthing armory [how come loyalist have more gear options then we do ?] , legion rules etc.

[Legatus]

they cut them because they were cuting everthing armory [how come loyalist have more gear options then we do ?]

Because after the Codex Dark Angels and the Codex Chaos Space Marines the screams of those players who could not cope with the new paradigm in Codex structure were so loud that they were heard even at the GW UK headquarters, which made them dismiss most of those new pradigms and change the course for the following Marine codices. Of course, that just made Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marine players scream even louder, and unfortunately we will have to put up with that until they finally get their next Codices.

[Rik Riorik]

Of course, that just made Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marine players scream even louder, and unfortunately we will have to put up with that until they finally get their next Codices.

 

Lets be glad that is the case. Whilst none of the new Codii (at least the ones I have, I'm still lacking the Tyranid Codex of this edition), have the customisation of C:CSM 3.5 they also are not as boring as our current 'dex.

 

Imperial Guard 3.5 and Chaos Space Marines 3.5 still rank as my all time favourite 'dexes.

[the jeske]

Because after the Codex Dark Angels and the Codex Chaos Space Marines the screams of those players who could not cope with the new paradigm in Codex structure were so loud that they were heard even at the GW UK headquarters, which made them dismiss most of those new pradigms and change the course for the following Marine codices.

what screams ? people playing chaos just stoped and DA players moved en mass to play codex SM [the old and then the new one] those that stayed and played their new dex are unimportant to the GW , because GW doesnt care what people like or dislike they care about sales . And while DA were never important to GW , chaos was the 2ed best selling item they had and it droped like hell with the gav dex , from a steady dex with new people picking it up to something like BAs or DAs were. + Codex like orks and demons were done at the same time [as in tested , ork dex was even ready before csm dex] as our dex and look , options everywhere FoC modification .

 

Of course, that just made Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marine players scream even louder, and unfortunately we will have to put up with that until they finally get their next Codices.

why small sales = small comunity= small sales in the future unless dex is made OP , but for that they would need A DT permision [no chaos fans like H-man or Chambers in the DT] and B chaos aint a loyalist army and the DT always tends to do "balanced" armies for non imperials[with th exeption of eldar who always had many players in the DT].

[Dammeron]

There really is no need for abstruse army lists for each legion or even for variant armies such as cultists, daemons etc. As has been demonstrated by some of the fan codexes (codici?) produced since the advent of GW's...latest effort it is perfectly feasible to create a fairly coherent, all singing, all dancing Chaos army list that can be adapted via the application of Chaos Marks, gifts, wargear and something akin to a very limited pool of veteran skills to represent practically any Chaos force you wish. Personally, I'd love to see a massive especial book akin to the old RoC books produced for Chaos in general. I certainly wouldn't mind forking out extra bucks for such an item, and considering the passion many Chaos players demonstrate for the background and roleplaying elements of the game, I doubt most others would either.

[dezul]

I'd like to see a revamp on chaos lords that makes them viable as a HQ choice over a prince. Chaos dreads also need a rework that makes them playable.. Ditch rage or just get rid of the stand and shoot part of it. Also land raiders that have machine spirit would be nice seeing as we pay the same points for the inferior version.

 

Maybe some rules to benefit those of us who stay loyal to our legion or god when building an army..

[Captain Idaho]

Although I wouldn't dispute Chaos having power of the machine spirit, the points cost of a Landraider is not the same as in loyalist Codex books.

 

It would be a shame if they [GW] took the easy way out and used power of the machine spirit though, as Chaos Marines being a different army should use possession instead. Of course Daemonic Possession probably needs an overhaul as well, like being able to fire weapons etc but that's also a thing to change.

 

I'd like to see a revamp on chaos lords that makes them viable as a HQ choice over a prince.

 

Definitely. In fact, the easiest solution is a common thing I would like to see in every Codex; leader bought traits that enable army customisation to some degree.