What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[Dammeron]

Not perfect, but an extremely laudible effort:

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/doc/30591124/Chaos-S...-Codex-Zureal13

[Kythnos]

Not perfect, but an extremely laudible effort:

 

http://www.games-workshop.com/doc/30591124...-Codex-Zureal13

 

When clicking that link all I get is the following:

 

Not Found

 

The requested URL /doc/30591124/Chaos-Space-Marine-Codex-Zureal13 was not found on this server.

[Alys]

Same, can't find that link.

 

The problem I have is, Chaos (to me) is random, wacky, fun, mixed up with lots of death. The Dread encapsulates this perfectly. Chaos Deamons too, as you're kinda left wondering which half of your army comes in first, and when the rest does. So to me, Deamonic Possession should also be similar. Maybe not AS wacky as the dread, but you need to make some allowances for the fact that the machine is possessed, and not in total control of the driver or lord.

 

Maybe if there's a unit within X of the vehicle, the deamon inside is like "Oooooh! Victims!" and will fire assault weapons (if possible), and then try to tank shock/Ram, with a bonus to represent the tank's hull is now boosted by the Deamon's lust to squoosh people. Maybe the vehicle will counter-attack anyone attacking it. At the moment, it just seems like the deamon is a worse shot (which, if it's fully integrated into the vehicle's systems, I can't see why), and can't be shaken/stunned.

 

Raptors could cause leadership tests with a penalty to anyone within a specific area, on the turn the deepstrike. Seems fluffy, with the whole screeching in, shooting and whopping, talons slicing at people... I can't see a single Tau/IG/Ork wanting to stay around to see what happens next. If nothing else, considering they are a cult dedicated to such tactics, allow them to assault on the turn they deepstrike in? After they are on the table, the initial shock/fear will be nullified by combat training/commissars/boyz, so their bonus is arriving at the right moment, causing demoralisation before slamming into the nearest unit.

[Kamikaze14]

I'm kinda new to this, but a quick look through the codex and reading some sites, possessed marines have a lot of potential, but are ruined by the random special ability thing. I'd love to see their special abilities as purchasable upgrades or just made the player's choice.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I'm kinda new to this, but a quick look through the codex and reading some sites, possessed marines have a lot of potential, but are ruined by the random special ability thing. I'd love to see their special abilities as purchasable upgrades or just made the player's choice.

 

Random Abilities are fluffy though - mutations are haphazard and non-uniform at a base level.

[Alys]

Maybe change the mutations, or when you roll for them? I think people complain because one of them is useless, while to make them decent, you desperately need Rending or Power Weapons.

 

If each mutation was less situational, and more fun... One for example would be, if they are killed they explode, causing a hit on the attacking squad if in CC (and possibly on the surviving possessed). Just this idea of a squad running up, and going *POP* is amusing.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Maybe change the mutations, or when you roll for them? I think people complain because one of them is useless, while to make them decent, you desperately need Rending or Power Weapons.

 

If each mutation was less situational, and more fun... One for example would be, if they are killed they explode, causing a hit on the attacking squad if in CC (and possibly on the surviving possessed). Just this idea of a squad running up, and going *POP* is amusing.

 

I think you need a core of mutations, to cover the whole spectrum from "Utterly Useless" to "Dear God-Emperor, it will kill us all!!!" - this tallies with the "chance" in taking such a randomly defined unit.

[Alys]

True, but if you are going to have one or two useless or highly situational mutations, wouldn't it be better to lower the price of them a little? Just enough that the negatives are (just) outweighed by the positives?

[Lord_Caerolion]

I'm kinda new to this, but a quick look through the codex and reading some sites, possessed marines have a lot of potential, but are ruined by the random special ability thing. I'd love to see their special abilities as purchasable upgrades or just made the player's choice.

 

Hell, they explicitly pointed out in the design notes for 3.5 that the reason they made Possessed be able to select their mutations was that people utterly hated the random mutations...

[Alys]

I wonder who hates the random mutations? I imagine the people who play in tourneys or serious games would, because they can't control the outcome. For me, I find it amusing, like the Dread. Sure i might end up tabling myself with a set of bad rolls, but I'm having fun doing it!

[Captain Juan Juarez]

True, but if you are going to have one or two useless or highly situational mutations, wouldn't it be better to lower the price of them a little? Just enough that the negatives are (just) outweighed by the positives?

 

Honestly? No.

 

It's one of the pitfalls of Chaos and mutation; "Wow, my claws can open Land Raider armour!"

 

"Oh.. I can't get into this tin of baked beans with mine..."

 

They don't have to be situational, just useless and this mirrors the capricious nature of the Gods.

 

I'm all for a Mutation that gives +1 S, WS, T and Wounds.. But you have to counter that with something that has no benefit in the game whatsoever.

 

Just outweighing the postitives isn't good enough; you want people to go... "Wow, I could end up with an uber-powerful CC slaughtering pack of Possessed."

 

Later that game... "All my Possessed got was +3 BS when they have no ranged weapons..."

 

EDIT: Damn the typos, full speed ahead!

[Kamikaze14]

Unless they were possessed the night before, you'd think a commander would have a pool of possessed with different mutations to choose from.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Unless they were possessed the night before, you'd think a commander would have a pool of possessed with different mutations to choose from.

 

Why? Possession and mutation are generally considered a blessing by the followers of Chaos; who is to say that every commander is bless/has troops who are belessed?

 

I prefer, aesthetically and fluffily, to think of Possessed as those who feel the surge of the Gods power just before ballte - similar to the way a Black Templar recieves visions from the Emperor and then becomes Emperor's Champion.

[Alys]

Out of interest, people don't like the scout move because you deploy before rolling, but the scout move just allows you to move twice in the first turn? So it's still not a bad ability, as it means you can get the possessed up the line faster?

[Rik Riorik]

True, but if you are going to have one or two useless or highly situational mutations, wouldn't it be better to lower the price of them a little? Just enough that the negatives are (just) outweighed by the positives?

 

Honestly? No.

 

It's one of the pitfalls of Chaos and mutation; "Wow, my claws can open Land Raider armour!"

 

"Oh.. I can't get into this tin of baked beans with mine..."

 

They don't have to be situational, just useless and this mirrors the capricious nature of the Gods.

 

I'm all for a Mutation that gives +1 S, WS, T and Wounds.. But you have to counter that with something that has no benefit in the game whatsoever.

 

Just outweighing the postitives isn't good enough; you want people to go... "Wow, I could end up with an uber-powerful CC slaughtering pack of Possessed."

 

Later that game... "All my Possessed got was +3 BS when they have no ranged weapons..."

 

EDIT: Damn the typos, full speed ahead!

 

You want people to regret taking Possesssed? Isn't that the primary reason they aren't taken? Because the vast majority of people don't want to include units that they can't count on at least not unless the power you get in return for the unreliability is a good trade off (ie Khârn).

[Captain Juan Juarez]

True, but if you are going to have one or two useless or highly situational mutations, wouldn't it be better to lower the price of them a little? Just enough that the negatives are (just) outweighed by the positives?

 

Honestly? No.

 

It's one of the pitfalls of Chaos and mutation; "Wow, my claws can open Land Raider armour!"

 

"Oh.. I can't get into this tin of baked beans with mine..."

 

They don't have to be situational, just useless and this mirrors the capricious nature of the Gods.

 

I'm all for a Mutation that gives +1 S, WS, T and Wounds.. But you have to counter that with something that has no benefit in the game whatsoever.

 

Just outweighing the postitives isn't good enough; you want people to go... "Wow, I could end up with an uber-powerful CC slaughtering pack of Possessed."

 

Later that game... "All my Possessed got was +3 BS when they have no ranged weapons..."

 

EDIT: Damn the typos, full speed ahead!

 

You want people to regret taking Possesssed? Isn't that the primary reason they aren't taken? Because the vast majority of people don't want to include units that they can't count on at least not unless the power you get in return for the unreliability is a good trade off (ie Khârn).

 

In the simplest possible terms, yes, but you need to actually go deeper into the reasoning.

 

Possessed have the capacity to be useful and characterful, but to balance that you need to at least give some credence to balancing them in terms of usefulness and characterfulness.

 

Possessed should, in my opinion, be a 50/50 choice.. With people having to think about the risk of including/not including that unit - as you should with any unit - in your force.

 

Example: If I get the "Chosen of the Gods" power, I get +1 WS, S, W and T.. But then I might get the useless -1 I. Can my force cope with that potential pitfall? Yes? Lets go Possessed!

[the jeske]

The problem I have is, Chaos (to me) is random, wacky, fun, mixed up with lots of death.

thats not chaos thats orks.

 

also puting fun aside , there is something like rules working or not working , the only way to make random rules work is to make them very cheap[as orks have it] because something that costs 100+ pts is non scoring and can easily be replaced by something that isnt random , plain sucks .

 

Out of interest, people don't like the scout move because you deploy before rolling, but the scout move just allows you to move twice in the first turn?

scout move is before turn 1 . this way if you roll a 1 on possessed you cant no longer use the rule.

 

I imagine the people who play in tourneys or serious games would, because they can't control the outcome. For me, I find it amusing, like the Dread.

ok I understand we shouldnt realy talk about what is or is not fun , but how can something that you cant cotrol ergo use be fun. I play a NM army . It is weak , I only play it because the rest of chaos is too boring , but each unit has its use . How can you use a dread or possessed or a khorn lord when you dont know if it will move/shot/hit the things you want . Where is the fun part in a dread not shoting at what it should be or a khorn lord stuning himself almost 1/3 of times ?

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, Chaos is all about random chaos. Problem is the way it is implemented in the game.

 

Not all the servants of Chaos are going to be given random gifts. Infact their gifts are usually down to the whims of the Chaps Gods who decide to give something to their loyal servants.

 

Also, the strongest Chaos servants aren't at all randomly rewarded. Look at Abaddon, nothing random about his abilities until his recent sword (which is is an abberation really, as his rules don't really reflect his background).

 

So the problem is how to put the crazy, random into the list in the right way. Chaos Dreadnoughts are one way but their rules need a tweak. For example, make the fire frenzy only affect the front arc and blood rage grants extra attacks.

 

Simple fixes that makes certain units random but only as to what you control and not how useful they are.

[Hellios]

Thing is, Chaos is all about random chaos. Problem is the way it is implemented in the game.

 

I would disagree with the statement that chaos is about random chaos. Chaos is about being unpredictable and while some unpredicted events or actions may see random they have a purpose behind them... That is the thing to remember about Chaos is that it has a purpose. I guess I shouldn't say Chaos but the various entities pulling the strings all have their own purpose and that is one of the key things that defines chaos... the sense of purpose... not randomness...

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, Chaos is all about random chaos. Problem is the way it is implemented in the game.

 

I would disagree with the statement that chaos is about random chaos. Chaos is about being unpredictable and while some unpredicted events or actions may see random they have a purpose behind them... That is the thing to remember about Chaos is that it has a purpose. I guess I shouldn't say Chaos but the various entities pulling the strings all have their own purpose and that is one of the key things that defines chaos... the sense of purpose... not randomness...

 

Purposeful random behaviour. That's what meant!

[Boshea]

I'm not a huge fan of some of the random effects. Khârn potential killing my units is fine since he'll still be hitting the enemy, but Daemon weapons working the same as plasma pistols isn't cool. Its the random effects that can make units completely useless that I have a problem with. Possessed and Dreadnaughts are the worst offender. You're often better off taking Berserkers over Possessed since they don't have the risk of getting terrible abilities, can shoot, cost less, and score. Often the only safe way to run a chaos dread is DCCW since it'll basically negate some of the risk of rolling a one, and help if a six is rolled. Still you run the risk of fielding a unit that has a 1/3 chances of never doing what you want to with it.

 

Overall I find that chaos is over-costed when compared with other space marine armies. When I'm comparing lists it always seems like chaos is fielding less, and the units only have slight (if any) advantages over similar units. There even times where I feel like I'm paying more for units that do less.

[Alys]

thats not chaos thats orks.

Chaos has always been a bit wacky to me. Then again the whole game was back in the old days, but it's turned a bit emo now ;)

 

also puting fun aside , there is something like rules working or not working , the only way to make random rules work is to make them very cheap[as orks have it] because something that costs 100+ pts is non scoring and can easily be replaced by something that isnt random , plain sucks .

I did mention lowering the points cost though. Personally, for things that have a % chance of backfiring or killing you, it should be cheap and cheerful, so that it's less of a gamble taking it.

 

scout move is before turn 1 . this way if you roll a 1 on possessed you cant no longer use the rule.

So it is kinda useless.

 

ok I understand we shouldnt realy talk about what is or is not fun , but how can something that you cant cotrol ergo use be fun. I play a NM army . It is weak , I only play it because the rest of chaos is too boring , but each unit has its use . How can you use a dread or possessed or a khorn lord when you dont know if it will move/shot/hit the things you want . Where is the fun part in a dread not shoting at what it should be or a khorn lord stuning himself almost 1/3 of times ?

Because when that Khorne lord gets off the 12+ base attacks, and wipes out an assault unit, or the dreadnought actually stays pretty stable through the whole game, it becomes special. Like that time when your favourite unit shrugged off 30 bolter rounds, or you roll a six to hit, six to wound, and they roll a 1 for armour.

[A D-B]

How can you use a dread or possessed or a khorn lord when you dont know if it will move/shot/hit the things you want . Where is the fun part in a dread not shoting at what it should be or a khorn lord stuning himself almost 1/3 of times ?

 

Because of two reasons, dude.

 

1. Most of us don't play competitively, and "this unit is as effective as possible" isn't much of a reason to take something over "I love the models", "this unit is fluffy in my warband", or "This unit is what I have painted at the moment, so I'm using it". With other reasons to play the game (and different approaches to it) enjoyment comes in different ways. A unit's peak effectiveness matters less than, say, what looks great, or a unit you're proud of, or a unit that really works with your army background. Hell, in a lot of cases, what matters most is what people can afford and/or have ready for a battle.

 

2. Because a lot of people like to take risks. Risks can be fun. When you play in a tournament, where the result really matters, you often can't afford to take risks - logic states that you need assurance and control in order to succeed. However, a lot of people in the world enjoy gambling, and on a smaller (albeit broader) scale, pretty much everyone enjoys taking a risk once in a while. That's what units like Dreadnoughts and Khorne Lords with suicidal weapons are good for: they come with the risk of either flipping out and being incredible, or sucking badly, and either way, there's a chance they might tip the game one way or the other. For some people, that's fun. It's an enjoyable risk in a tabletop wargame. The problem only arises when the risk isn't worth it: when something has rules written badly enough that it offers almost no control, or its potential benefits are useless compared to the catastrophic negatives.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

How can you use a dread or possessed or a khorn lord when you dont know if it will move/shot/hit the things you want . Where is the fun part in a dread not shoting at what it should be or a khorn lord stuning himself almost 1/3 of times ?

 

Because of two reasons, dude.

 

1. "I love the models", "this unit is fluffy in my warband"...

 

2. Because a lot of people like to take risks. Risks can be fun.

 

This is part of what I tried to convey in my point about the Possessed.

[Rik Riorik]

How can you use a dread or possessed or a khorn lord when you dont know if it will move/shot/hit the things you want . Where is the fun part in a dread not shoting at what it should be or a khorn lord stuning himself almost 1/3 of times ?

 

Because of two reasons, dude.

 

1. Most of us don't play competitively, and "this unit is as effective as possible" isn't much of a reason to take something over "I love the models", "this unit is fluffy in my warband", or "This unit is what I have painted at the moment, so I'm using it". With other reasons to play the game (and different approaches to it) enjoyment comes in different ways. A unit's peak effectiveness matters less than, say, what looks great, or a unit you're proud of, or a unit that really works with your army background. Hell, in a lot of cases, what matters most is what people can afford and/or have ready for a battle.

 

2. Because a lot of people like to take risks. Risks can be fun. When you play in a tournament, where the result really matters, you often can't afford to take risks - logic states that you need assurance and control in order to succeed. However, a lot of people in the world enjoy gambling, and on a smaller (albeit broader) scale, pretty much everyone enjoys taking a risk once in a while. That's what units like Dreadnoughts and Khorne Lords with suicidal weapons are good for: they come with the risk of either flipping out and being incredible, or sucking badly, and either way, there's a chance they might tip the game one way or the other. For some people, that's fun. It's an enjoyable risk in a tabletop wargame. The problem only arises when the risk isn't worth it: when something has rules written badly enough that it offers almost no control, or its potential benefits are useless compared to the catastrophic negatives.

 

I understand the sentiment perfectly. I have immense troubles fitting cult troops ( or indeed Marks other than Chaos Undivided) into my idea for my Word Bearers force even though I recognize they might be useful and that it severly restricts the variety of the lists I can actually make. I like tanks a lot as I used to play Warhammer Fantasy and that kind of schnazz just isn't available to you in that game and I'm not too fond of Obliterators in the fluff and most definetly not their models despite the fact that everyone seems to be in agreement that they are the bee's knees.

 

Heck I used to play my Dwarf army in an offensive fashion in 6th edition with the older version of the army book back when the Dawi were not all that especially not going forward, although I would invariably be fighting an uphill battle. I loved my Dwarf rangers which despite not being hawt stuff to this day is my favourite Dwarf unit. All for fun all because just sitting back and firing ranged weaponry made for a dull and predictable game with little risk. I used to field Runesmiths even though most of the time I had no problem handling the magic of my opponent simply because Runesmiths are great! I used to tool my Dwarf Lord even though the only time he'd see combat was when my opponent deemed himself good and ready (Mike Walker* of White Dwarf fame said it best when he said the Lord's problem was his abyssmal weapons delivery system, ie "two short hairy legs").

 

But that's controlled fun the kind I am in charge of. Risk taking on my terms. Admittably I haven't ever played Possessed and they might make love to my sensibilities in a harsh but enjoyable manner should I use them. I really do enjoy their models. They are the pride and joy of the Chaos army in that respect as far as I am concerned and I like them from a fluff perspective. But I am severly put off by the unpredicatability in that I don't know what I can expect of them beforehand. You might say of course that Warhammer is by and large a game of unpredictability given you don't control your opponent and you most certainly don't control the oh so fickle dice and I'd be hard pressed to disagree with such a statement. But I just have a hard time fielding a unit that is random even before the game.

 

I'm of course not driven entirely by fun unrelated to winning, because I do enjoy winning or give my opponents a run for their money and as such points cost and if other units can be taken to suit the battleplan in a like manner more efficiently but by and large I play with units I like and that fit my theme.

 

Having said all that I should probably give them a test run (or two) when I do get my army going (as it is currently in its building stages). But I'm not sure I'd agree with the line of thought that if you don't like the randomness you're just a competetive son of a gun if that was a line of thought I was presented with.

 

 

*I'll never miss an opportunity to cram Mike into a post. His articles were always the best and I still rummage through my old White Dwarfs to re-read them now and again and the tales of his awesome gaming group. Gawd I miss Mike!