What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[the jeske]

Then again the whole game was back in the old days

I remember chaos since the time of 2ed and aside for 1ksons who are always hated by GW [d6 auto dead on force drain back in the days , worse demons etc] chaos was never wacky .

 

So it is kinda useless.

yep , but so are possessed so it doesnt really matter in the end. even someone always gets power weapons or rending for them they still dont make more then a death star and because of how "good" our non DP HQ are our deathstarts kind of a suck [ok because of our LR too].

 

 

Because when that Khorne lord gets off the 12+ base attacks, and wipes out an assault unit, or the dreadnought actually stays pretty stable through the whole game, it becomes special. Like that time when your favourite unit shrugged off 30 bolter rounds, or you roll a six to hit, six to wound, and they roll a 1 for armour.

so you get a kick out of random 0_o that is a bit odd , it neither proves better skills at playing/skills building nor does it happen often enough for people to actualy see it happen. most people play w40k for around a year , the chance of regulary doing +12 attacks with a khorn lord [who still wounds on +4 ] is slim , unless I dont know they play every days 2-3 games a day. I dont understand the favorite unit part , I dont realy have such units unless its obltis and DPs [because they work] and I cant remember many games . where I didnt table my opponent . that they were alive at the end.

 

 

 

Most of us don't play competitively, and "this unit is as effective as possible" isn't much of a reason to take something over "I love the models", "this unit is fluffy in my warband", or "This unit is what I have painted at the moment, so I'm using it". With other reasons to play the game (and different approaches to it) enjoyment comes in different ways. A unit's peak effectiveness matters less than, say, what looks great, or a unit you're proud of, or a unit that really works with your army background. Hell, in a lot of cases, what matters most is what people can afford and/or have ready for a battle.

ok but if you use a unit because you want to show your painting skill and the unit doesnt stay on the table long enough[sloging hth dreads dont work even for loyalists and their dreads have better AV and are not crazy] to actualy be shown [ a lord gets out of a rhino . turn on the table . he charges . 1/3 chance of stun , gets hit by fist . no longer on the table] . + if you want to just show how it is painted you dont have to play a game . Am not talking here about compatetive play because there painting is important too[ mostly because of army paint scores] . I mean you wouldnt play a unit of 2x10 csm with a plas melta set up , knowing well that one of those weapons[probably the plas] will never see use just to show of the plas. If someone wants to show a well converted dread or lord , there are other ways to do it . counts as other dex , play different armies etc

 

 

Because a lot of people like to take risks. Risks can be fun.

1/3 chance to stun himself , wound himself and probably die because he doesnt have eternal warrior is not a chance of risk .it is a chance to fail hard. normal armies are build around the aspect of chance and how gamers play with it , be it by spaming stuff or doing very hard to use on choice armies where you dont realy play with models , but with 2-3 unit formations [morticons BA army comes to my mind now as an example] . I dont see why , if your playing a table top game , puting a unit that does not only not do what you want , but also has a chance to shot your own troops is even considered taking a risk for fun . specialy as the fact that the chaos dread is risky doesnt just end there , I mean the dread has a job to do [support , anti tank , anti horde etc] , so because it doesnt work there always have to be extra units that jump in just "in case" the dread goes crazy . Now maybe in apo size games , that can be done [but in apo chaos can use loyalsit dreads so why bother?] but in normal 1500 or 1750 there just isnt enough points to run units to support two dreads. .

 

Plaing a zerker build is risk , if you cant get in to hth your probably will lose . [this is a huge simplification because all of this is modified by possible builds played] . Playing a dread means the chance that the unit will not do more then being put on the table is realy big . I mean it doesnt even draw fire , if your opponent knows the rules it has.

[Legatus]

scout move is before turn 1 . this way if you roll a 1 on possessed you cant no longer use the rule.

So it is kinda useless.

Possessed abilities are rolled for "after deployment", while scout moves are made "after both sides have deployed, but before the first player begins his turn". I would say that checks out. And in 5th Edition the Possessed can even use their Transport for the Scout move.

[Sangneur]

I'd actually prefer if the random abilities were left for the chaos spawn rather than the possessed. Like at the beginning spawn rolled 3d6 on a chart and or maybe you got to take any number of rolls on a positive ability chart, in exchange for having to roll on a negative ability chart that gave things like slow and purposeful or stupidity.

 

In my ideal the possessed should be possessed by a specific kind of daemon, pretty much be an elite version of their possessor. So if they were held by a slaaneshi daemo they gain her powers and keep the armour, becoming a more expensive version of the daemon. It makes sense for the lesser daemons.

[Candleshoes]

1. Most of us don't play competitively, and "this unit is as effective as possible" isn't much of a reason to take something over "I love the models", "this unit is fluffy in my warband", or "This unit is what I have painted at the moment, so I'm using it". With other reasons to play the game (and different approaches to it) enjoyment comes in different ways. A unit's peak effectiveness matters less than, say, what looks great, or a unit you're proud of, or a unit that really works with your army background. Hell, in a lot of cases, what matters most is what people can afford and/or have ready for a battle.

 

QFT.

[Lexington]

I remember chaos since the time of 2ed and aside for 1ksons who are always hated by GW [d6 auto dead on force drain back in the days , worse demons etc] chaos was never wacky .

Erm, no. Off the top of my head, 2nd Edition Chaos still had the occasionally-crazy Dreadnoughts of today and the only "explosive" plasma weaponry of the time. Summoning Daemons was also inherently riskier, in so much as if you didn't cause enough of Chosen God X's Thing (hits for Khorne, wounds for Nurgle, sorcery for Tzeentch and leadership tests for Slaanesh, if memory serves), your boys would spend the whole game in the Warp discussing Wittgenstein over games of backgammon. IIRC, their psyker powers also had some of the nastier backlashing as well. Compared to the stalwart but predictable Loyalist forces, Chaos was a bastion of madmen whose power waxed and waned with the results of the uncaring Dice Gods.

 

This really is something I miss about Chaos - the idea, inherent in the game system and the background, that Chaos was the tool of those who sought personal power, with little regard for the potentially disastrous consequences. It didn't matter if you were a Word Bearer who turned to the Gods in devotion to an ideal, or a Night Lord who cynically accepted the occasional Aether-spawned help - you were accomplishing your goals, and the hell with who or what you destroyed along the way. If you went out, you did so defiantly, and in a blaze of damnation. If you scraped through, then the galaxy was going to choke its last under your bootheel. Either way, the actions of those serving Chaos increased the power of entities spawned by the soul's dark excesses, who laughed as mortals consumed themselves in their service.

 

Translated to the tabletop, this meant that games with Chaos (and Orks, in a different sense) usually ended up being a great story either way. Sometimes you steamrolled your opponent under the weight of your unstoppable divine might, and other times you cursed the sky as your Dreadnought stopped to pet a pretty flower while a team of malevolent Warp-spawn played tether ball with your Sorcerer's recently-detached skull. It also had the added bonus of getting to experience all this while not damning your own soul to the service of insane, alien Gods. Which, when you think about it, is a pretty neat trick.

 

Anymore, this sort of risk really isn't present in the game - or if it is, it's usually implemented in a very one-dimensional manner - which is really a shame. It's a consequence of the post-3rd Edition drive towards a more tournament-friendly game system, and anyone who thinks in terms of win/loss ratios is going to figure out pretty quickly that you're better off playing to the averages. There really is a unique pleasure to gaming with an eye to the narrative, and I wish we saw this supported more robustly, both in the game and in the community.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

The problem only arises when the risk isn't worth it: when something has rules written badly enough that it offers almost no control, or its potential benefits are useless compared to the catastrophic negatives.

 

Totally concur. I assume enough risk just rolling the dice for regular gameplay; I'm not nearly as big a fan of assuming additional risks on top of that when no one else is assuming that same risk during play. There's gambling, and then there's having the deck stacked against you from the start and knowing you're betting on a gamble that stands a higher chance of being a loss instead of a gain, just because one person's rules have been conditioned to be more unkind to one half of the playing field. The previous Codex exhibited the randomness and the risk via points cost: it was very expensive to field the most dangerous units, and if the dice in regular gameplay didn't love you then you would swiftly regret the decision to pour points into Possessed, Chosen, vehicle upgrades, Cult troops, etc. There was nothing wrong with that methodology. Placing that randomness as mandatory in actual gameplay rules isn't "randomness", it's spite, and it's not fun. -_-

[Warsmith Aznable]

I want a Chaos Space Marine list that is full of Raptors and flying stuff. I want a different Chaos Space Marine list that is nothing but crazy daemon engines and tanks. I want another Chaos Space Marine list packed full of daemon allies pouring forth from the Warp. I want a different Chaos Space Marine list where everybody deep strikes somehow. Or even a list where a horde of Marines marches across the table laying down a continuous barrage of Bolter fire. All kinds of crazy stuff.

 

In short, I want enough rules flexibility not so it's the most over-powered butt-kicking army ever, but so that anyone can field a themed army of their liking without having to give up at least even odds of winning. So that competitive guys can field their lists of "most effective stuff" and guys like me can make lists based on fluff that guys like him don't find pointless and stupid.

 

And I want to be able to do this with a Chaos Space Marines codex, not having to counts-as with any other codices to make a Chaos Marine army fluffy.

[the jeske]

Off the top of my head, 2nd Edition Chaos still had the occasionally-crazy Dreadnoughts of today and the only "explosive" plasma weaponry of the time.

only if someone took dreads you took a demon possessed one to get better chance of nulify and run it for the power scourge [to cancle those +1A for extra models ] and even then dreads didnt fit in to most armies . It was better to put a frenzon+slanesh steed HQ in . more kill 24" charge range .

 

Summoning Daemons was also inherently riskier, in so much as if you didn't cause enough of Chosen God X's Thing (hits for Khorne, wounds for Nurgle, sorcery for Tzeentch and leadership tests for Slaanesh, if memory serves), your boys would spend the whole game in the Warp discussing Wittgenstein over games of backgammon

it was impossible to not summon letter . you took zerkers a lord with tzeench/khorn/slany markw with demon weapon displacer prise of khorn and termi armor gave him lvls in sorcory to get gate from adeptus deck turn 2 your were in hth and the khorn demons were there . yep it was hard to summon others , but why would anyone bother when letter were awesome .power weapon , stand up with regen , high WS , support for a hth army that cant realy be countered because outside of some real luck with orks pulsa rokits or IG pre battle barrage it was impossible to stop them from charging .

 

 

Sometimes you steamrolled your opponent under the weight of your unstoppable divine might, and other times you cursed the sky as your Dreadnought stopped to pet a pretty flower while a team of malevolent Warp-spawn played tether ball with your Sorcerer's recently-detached skull. It also had the added bonus of getting to experience all this while not damning your own soul to the service of insane, alien Gods

well that is kind of a why they werent run so offten . some zerkers , 4 man chosen with plas [99 pts=0 VP] lord with gate other with steed and sky was the limit . But then again all armies were like that back then and it was awesome . The smaller the points side and the smaller the models played it was more about skills and listing builds , now it is about who can beat statistics better .

[RapatoR]

About possesed: IMO major problem is not randomness as - price

- no chance of kitting them with anti-tank gear

- absence of grenades

- and then chance to at least partially control that randomness (buying reroll would be great and players who are satisfied with randomness could ignore it)

[Cornelias]

About possesed: IMO major problem is not randomness as - price

- no chance of kitting them with anti-tank gear

- absence of grenades

- and then chance to at least partially control that randomness (buying reroll would be great and players who are satisfied with randomness could ignore it)

 

agreed, if they were cheaper and had grenades you would see them alot more than you do atm, even if the random skill stayed.

[Volchek]

What do I want in a Codex: CSM?

 

1) Points equity

 

Raptor unit:

9 Raptors, 2 Meltaguns

1 Raptor Champion (must buy for 15pts) w Powerfist

Cost = 260

 

BA Assault Sqd:

9 Marines, 2 Meltaguns

Sgt (free w sqd) w Powerfist

Cost = 235

 

2) Named Characters that lend something to the Force

 

Abbadon The Despoiler 275pts

A beast in CC for sure, but he lends NOTHING to the other units in your list.

 

The Sanquinor 275pts

Aura of Fervor (all units within 6" get +1 CC Attack)

The Sanguinor's Blessing (choose a sgt in your army and he gets +1 WS, +1 W, +1 Ini, +1 Attack for the duration of the game)

 

Pedro Kantor 175pts

Hold the Line! (Sternguard becoming scoring units)

Inspiring Presence (all units within 12" get +1 CC attack)

 

Not a single Named Character or HQ type in the Codex: CSM lends anything to other units in your force.

 

3) More Vehicles or Daemon Engines

 

Space Marines get Land Speeders, 3 Land Raider Variants, Razorbacks with options, Whirlwinds, Drop Pods along with Dreadnoughts, Rhinos, Predators, and Vindicators

 

Chaos Space Marines get a Land Raider, Rhino, Predator, Vindicator, and Crazed Dreadnought. However, the Predator is 10pts more than the SM predator with the same options (AC + 2 LasCannon sponsons)

 

The Defiler is a crappy dreadnought that cost as much as a Leman Russ.

 

4) A mechanism that allows you to build a Legion-oriented force without buying Icons that are useless if the Icon Bearer is killed.

 

5) For Allesio Cavatore and Gav Thorpe to have absolutely nothing to do with writing another Codex of any type...EVER.

[vezok the annihilator]

in the next codex CSM iwould like to some sort of better lord wargear, a bit like the list i made in my blog and also more ranged psychic powers and sorcerers being able to cancel out perils of the warp for them selves and have a psychic hood like thing. also being able to give oblits marks and making thousand sons cheaper and more versatile

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Not a single Named Character or HQ type in the Codex: CSM lends anything to other units in your force.

 

Fabius Bile would like a word with you in his office.

 

5) For Allesio Cavatore and Gav Thorpe to have absolutely nothing to do with writing another Codex of any type...EVER.

 

Neither work for GW anymore (well, Thorpe is BL, but that's not development), so you get your wish.

[Volchek]

Not a single Named Character or HQ type in the Codex: CSM lends anything to other units in your force.

 

Fabius Bile would like a word with you in his office.

 

5) For Allesio Cavatore and Gav Thorpe to have absolutely nothing to do with writing another Codex of any type...EVER.

 

Neither work for GW anymore (well, Thorpe is BL, but that's not development), so you get your wish.

 

The ability bestowed by Fabius is random and unreliable. I'd never take him in a list for the same reason I'd never buy a dreadnought. Randomly rolling for the chance at a beneficial ability sucks.

 

And yes, I know Cavatore is no longer with GW and I thank God for that. His lasting legacy is the awful wound allocation rule in 5th ed. And it's good that Gav Thorpe is BL only, writing fiction suits him better than using sound logic to write a rules codex.

[Boshea]

I agree with everything you want Volchek. If you want to see some really bad point disparity compare basic CSM with Grey hunters. Same points for a better unit, and even cheaper to upgrade.

 

I wouldn't really count Fabius Bile in the same vein as the examples listed. You're not paying X points for a character that gives an immediate benefit. You're paying X points + Y points for however many CSMs you want to try turning into Possessed Marines smart enough to carry a gun.

[Alys]

From what I've been reading, and seeing in the codex (I've just started with Chaos, and am wondering a little if I should have gone with Eldar after all!), it's a lack of options that hurt. Being able to field multiple types of armies, effectively, is what I see lacking with Chaos. To win, or to have a chance at winning, you need a couple of DP (possibly with Lash), your troops in rhinos, and then Obliterators (plus maybe a Vindicator/Defiler or two). That ignores all special characters, two generic HQ, possibly a troop choice or two (Noise Marines and Lesser Deamons), Most if not all Elites, All Fast Attack, and finally Havocs, Land Raiders and Predator Tanks.

 

That's a big wad of the codex not used.

 

Yet my friend who has SW, changes his army around, and still does well.

[DeathCompanyInductee]

I want Matt Ward to write our codex and give us ridiculous flying pig-daemons that are the illegitimate offspring of Khorne and Slaanesh because that's what the fluff says!

 

I apologize deeply for the obligatory Matt Ward reference.

 

 

in truth, i want to be able to open the codex for the first time and not be able to put it down due to the sheer awesomeness emanating from its insides.

 

I want a land raider that doesn't pale in comparison

 

I want more legion differences and more Warband differences

 

I want the chaos sorcerer to DO SOMETHING!!!!

 

and finally, i want the chosen to also DO SOMETHING!!!

[Dammeron]

As a bonus, I want to enjoy reading the codex. The current effort is evidently thrown together, very, very hastily edited and poorly written. Past incarnations have exuded a kind of dark majesty, a forbidden quality that I think most Chaos players luxuriate in. The Liber Chaotica has it in spades; if those involved in writing and designing the codex could capture that ethos, we'd have something very worthwhile on our hands.

[Brother Nihm]

As a bonus, I want to enjoy reading the codex. The current effort is evidently thrown together, very, very hastily edited and poorly written. Past incarnations have exuded a kind of dark majesty, a forbidden quality that I think most Chaos players luxuriate in. The Liber Chaotica has it in spades; if those involved in writing and designing the codex could capture that ethos, we'd have something very worthwhile on our hands.

You, you deserve a medal, a big shiny eight-pointed warpfire forged medal, that drips blood. Yes.

[Boshea]

From what I've been reading, and seeing in the codex (I've just started with Chaos, and am wondering a little if I should have gone with Eldar after all!), it's a lack of options that hurt. Being able to field multiple types of armies, effectively, is what I see lacking with Chaos. To win, or to have a chance at winning, you need a couple of DP (possibly with Lash), your troops in rhinos, and then Obliterators (plus maybe a Vindicator/Defiler or two). That ignores all special characters, two generic HQ, possibly a troop choice or two (Noise Marines and Lesser Deamons), Most if not all Elites, All Fast Attack, and finally Havocs, Land Raiders and Predator Tanks.

 

That's a big wad of the codex not used.

 

Yet my friend who has SW, changes his army around, and still does well.

From what I gathered we really only have one truly effective army. Double lash princes for HQs, 9 Oblits, 2 squads of Plague Marines. Remaining points used for either more Plague marines or terminators. This isn't entirely correct depending what you want to play, but it seems to be the general consensus on what is best for an all purpose army. Our codex seems to be a combination of either useless units, amazing units, and units you don't run unless you can't run the amazing ones.

 

Honestly the only reason I'm not running Oblits in my World Eater list is because I want land raiders so I can disembark and assault the same turn with berserkers.

 

I also agree with Dammeron on making the codex enjoyable to read. I've also lost count of the spelling mistakes I've noticed.

[the jeske]

las stoped working around IG going full mecha ,lash was starting to be hard to use when new sm dex came out and people switched from 5 man footslogging builds to full mecha.

[Alys]

From what I gathered we really only have one truly effective army. Double lash princes for HQs, 9 Oblits, 2 squads of Plague Marines. Remaining points used for either more Plague marines or terminators. This isn't entirely correct depending what you want to play, but it seems to be the general consensus on what is best for an all purpose army. Our codex seems to be a combination of either useless units, amazing units, and units you don't run unless you can't run the amazing ones.

 

Honestly the only reason I'm not running Oblits in my World Eater list is because I want land raiders so I can disembark and assault the same turn with berserkers.

 

I also agree with Dammeron on making the codex enjoyable to read. I've also lost count of the spelling mistakes I've noticed.

 

Oh that's even better! all HQ barring DP is wasted, all troop choices barring PM wasted, all elites wasted all fast attack wasted and all HQ barring oblits wasted.

 

What's so amusing to me, is if you take the game and turn it back into the fluff, why is the Imperium worried about Chaos? Most of their forces are sub-standard at best!

 

"Oh no! Chaos has landed on our planet! Wait... the dreadnought has just ripped apart their own troops before hugging the drop pod and exploding, the jump pack units have all took a dive and impacted into the ground and the Chaos Lord fell over and impaled himself on his own spikes. Never mind. Shall we send the PDF in to clean up the mess?"

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

and all HQ barring oblits wasted.

 

Now THAT would be a Chaos build. Do you think we could squeeze a 3 Oblit squad per HQ choice, in addition to HS? :)

[Captain Idaho]

las stoped working around IG going full mecha ,lash was starting to be hard to use when new sm dex came out and people switched from 5 man footslogging builds to full mecha.

 

Lash still works you just have to use it differently. It's a nasty power as you can use it in the shooting phase just after destroying a transport to drag the debarked squad into the open or charge range. Easy as pie.

[Alys]

and all HQ barring oblits wasted.

 

Now THAT would be a Chaos build. Do you think we could squeeze a 3 Oblit squad per HQ choice, in addition to HS? :D

 

It's the only way to play! Obliterators as HQ, Elite, Fast Attack, Troop and Heavy choices! :blink: