What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[the jeske]

Lash still works you just have to use it differently. It's a nasty power as you can use it in the shooting phase just after destroying a transport to drag the debarked squad into the open or charge range. Easy as pie.

IT doesnt work because it doesnt work because right now its a win more option or meta against armies that have no psychic protection .For it to work against a loyalist army I have to first pop the transports/rhino walls etc but I have fewer options in slots to do it with[unlike loyalists that can have support units in every slot] , then move myself in to proper position to cast it and then hope that the runes/hoods/staffs/etc wont stop me . And if they do the prince is dead.

am still using lash in NM because lets face it there are no other options for slany DPs , but I wouldnt say that it still works .

[Zhukov]

las stoped working around IG going full mecha ,lash was starting to be hard to use when new sm dex came out and people switched from 5 man footslogging builds to full mecha.

 

Lash still works you just have to use it differently. It's a nasty power as you can use it in the shooting phase just after destroying a transport to drag the debarked squad into the open or charge range. Easy as pie.

Like Jeske already says; sometimes it works but many times (against good oppenents) it doesn't. Then you'll have a Prince standing there with T5... The Oblit + Lash combo is even worse as you'll mostly need to shoot at transports/tanks with Oblits as long as they live.

 

So yes; Lash still owns bad armies and is a handicap against a lot of proper armies.

[Captain Idaho]

I works almost as well now against Marines as it did in 4th edition. Space Marines had their psychic hoods back then remember and still a good few transports too. You just have to more often than before shoot through a Rhino first this time.

 

Don't get me wrong, it's still not a strong power in 5th edition, but against Marines it isn't really that different.

 

Personally I would still prefer Warp Time though because a Flying Prince doesn't need the help reaching combat as much.

[NapalmPirate]

I'd like to see the Night Lords re-equipped with their night vision. Alien mercenaries/slaves would be cool, too.

[Sviar]

I must confess I never read all 15 pages, but I want to see the regular CSM:s to have "and they shall know no fear" or be fearless.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I want to see the regular CSM:s to have "and they shall know no fear"

 

And Legatus responds in 3.. 2... 1...

 

I have to disagree though, giving CSM ATSKNF in addition to all their Chaos-y goodness will make Loyalists not really have anything unique. Ok, so they get a few different guns, and some tank variants. Chaos gets Daemons, Marks and the numerous Cults. While I disagree with Legatus in that I don't think CSM can't be said to have ATSKNF ever, I don't think it should be included in the CSM codex. To me, it's a tradeoff. Your Chaos Marines are either consumed with hatred and bitterness, willing to fight to the death and so have ATSKNF, or they're die-hard fanatics, and so get the Chaos stuff, but have only a few units with Fearless, and whatever units benefit from the Mark of Chaos Undivided.

Having both steals the individuality of the Loyalists.

[Nemisor]

we need more units with fearless. having expensive termys and chosen destroyed after a slight loss in combat ( rare i know ) bites :P

[RapatoR]

I think that stubborn would solve the problem of morale weakness. In combination with high morale and additional IoCG would be perfect.

Still I think that there should be at least two books instead of one...

[the jeske]

why would GW make 2 chaos books when even one is selling bad ?

[Captain Idaho]

we need more units with fearless. having expensive termys and chosen destroyed after a slight loss in combat ( rare i know ) bites :cuss

 

That's the last thing the game needs; more fearless units.

 

Chaos Marines don't need to be less likely to run than they are now, they need to win their combats instead. They need an assault unit which is scary and considered "uber" and not a points sink. Look at Chosen; with the correct assault weapons and the Mark of Slaanesh or Khorne they become fearsome in assaults but then their points value goes up dramatically.

[Alys]

In reality though, isn't a Chaos marine LESS likely to run from combat, than a loyalist?

[Boshea]

we need more units with fearless. having expensive termys and chosen destroyed after a slight loss in combat ( rare i know ) bites :cuss

 

That's the last thing the game needs; more fearless units.

 

Chaos Marines don't need to be less likely to run than they are now, they need to win their combats instead. They need an assault unit which is scary and considered "uber" and not a points sink. Look at Chosen; with the correct assault weapons and the Mark of Slaanesh or Khorne they become fearsome in assaults but then their points value goes up dramatically.

Chosen with marks are essentially just squads of cult troops that trade in their special rules and the ability to score for higher Ld and better gear selection.

 

Going by the fluff a regular Chaos Space Marine should be better then MEQ. We're talking about marines with thousands of years of combat experience, and blessed by the ruinous powers. There is only a hand full of loyalist marines who are even close to one thousand years of age. In the game though all this equates to is being smart enough to carry two close combat weapons and a higher Ld (which is negligible when compared to ATSKNF+Combat Tactics). Our Sorcerers are pathetic compared to Librarians, and only gets worse when you factor in Psychic hoods. I'm almost positive that if they just took the Chaos Warrior from WHF, gave him a BS of 4 and the standard Marine war gear he'd solve some problems. At the very least bring the Will of Chaos to 40k so that every squad doesn't need to drop the points on IoC.

[Captain Idaho]

A regular Chaos Marine should not be better than a regular Loyalist Marine, this is a distinction people have been getting wrong for ages. They should be more experienced. So bascially they should be just a little more efficient at a particular thing. The best way to represent this is veteran skills similar to the Veteran Doctrines in Codex Imperial Guard.

 

If pointed appropriately, there is no reason a Chaos Marines squad can't be have Tank Hunters or Counter Attack bought as an optional upgrade, provided it was paid for at the appropriate points cost.

 

I also think only Chaos Marines should get these skills, not specialised "Cult" units, as they have specialised already.

 

So that means Chosen, Chaos Marines and Havocs, and probably Bikers too.

[Kitchen Knife]

Just my two cents:

 

I would like better/more diverse "mechanical units/warmachines"

 

- Our dreads are insane, 1 in a 3 chance to be "useless" (only exception if the are already in close combat), and they aren't venerable either...

 

- We got only one land raider version.

 

- We are not from baal, so no Baal predator for us.

 

- No Stormraven either.

 

- We have a defiler! Double the size of a rhino to get him shot extra easily and with BS 3. At least the should have made the model somewhat smaller (but model size will not be changed with a new codex)

 

- And some chaos-specific armament would be nice. Right now we got only the sonic weapons from the EC.

[Legatus]

In reality though, isn't a Chaos marine LESS likely to run from combat, than a loyalist?

A Chaos Marine is less likely to be intimidated, thus they have a higher Ld value than loyalists. But a Chaos Marine will not willingly give his life just so that his comrades in arms can be successful. Chaos Marines are more selfish and fight for personal gains. Loyalists on the other hand will gladly give their life if that ensures the success of the mission. That is why Loyalists have had amorale special rule for the past four editions, while Chaos Marines did not. Fanatical Chaos Space Marines can be given additional rules like the Mark of Chaos Undivided that lets them re-roll morale tests, and the really fanatical ones are fearless, which is usually due to a complete lack in any rational sense of self preservation.

So, no, Chaos Marines should not get ATSKNF, and they should not all be fearless.

[Hellios]

In reality though, isn't a Chaos marine LESS likely to run from combat, than a loyalist?

A Chaos Marine is less likely to be intimidated, thus they have a higher Ld value than loyalists. But a Chaos Marine will not willingly give his life just so that his comrades in arms can be successful. Chaos Marines are more selfish and fight for personal gains. Loyalists on the other hand will gladly give their life if that ensures the success of the mission. That is why Loyalists have had amorale special rule for the past four editions, while Chaos Marines did not. Fanatical Chaos Space Marines can be given additional rules like the Mark of Chaos Undivided that lets them re-roll morale tests, and the really fanatical ones are fearless, which is usually due to a complete lack in any rational sense of self preservation.

So, no, Chaos Marines should not get ATSKNF, and they should not all be fearless.

 

The problem is this is one of the weakest parts of the game... leadership tests and so on... breaking combat... In some respects I think you are right but if my marine runs away from howling banshees or harlequins (and so on) I know their is a good chance that they will be caught... Not great for loyalist marines... really bad for chaos marines and thats where I think this often falls down. I've hardly ever had a loyalist or chaos unit break from shooting (although it can happen) and with a champion and IoCG chaos will almost never break from shooting. The problem is when you get kicked in by something in CC. Because you say my chaos run to save their lives? Well its funny because they all just died... Chaos space marines are some of the best soldiers in the 40k universe... I know we often see the mad side that can seem 'chaotic' but many are still very professional... They understand it is better to fight or at least make some sort of fighting retreat than run away... and it is pretty hard to hide when you are in a suit of terminator armour... Stubborn might solve the problem in some way but again I don't think that would be accurate to the background. Really the whole leadership system needs to be rejigged.

[Piousservant]

I remember chaos since the time of 2ed and aside for 1ksons who are always hated by GW [d6 auto dead on force drain back in the days , worse demons etc] chaos was never wacky .

Erm, no. Off the top of my head, 2nd Edition Chaos still had the occasionally-crazy Dreadnoughts of today and the only "explosive" plasma weaponry of the time. Summoning Daemons was also inherently riskier, in so much as if you didn't cause enough of Chosen God X's Thing (hits for Khorne, wounds for Nurgle, sorcery for Tzeentch and leadership tests for Slaanesh, if memory serves), your boys would spend the whole game in the Warp discussing Wittgenstein over games of backgammon. IIRC, their psyker powers also had some of the nastier backlashing as well. Compared to the stalwart but predictable Loyalist forces, Chaos was a bastion of madmen whose power waxed and waned with the results of the uncaring Dice Gods.

 

This really is something I miss about Chaos - the idea, inherent in the game system and the background, that Chaos was the tool of those who sought personal power, with little regard for the potentially disastrous consequences. It didn't matter if you were a Word Bearer who turned to the Gods in devotion to an ideal, or a Night Lord who cynically accepted the occasional Aether-spawned help - you were accomplishing your goals, and the hell with who or what you destroyed along the way. If you went out, you did so defiantly, and in a blaze of damnation. If you scraped through, then the galaxy was going to choke its last under your bootheel. Either way, the actions of those serving Chaos increased the power of entities spawned by the soul's dark excesses, who laughed as mortals consumed themselves in their service.

 

Translated to the tabletop, this meant that games with Chaos (and Orks, in a different sense) usually ended up being a great story either way. Sometimes you steamrolled your opponent under the weight of your unstoppable divine might, and other times you cursed the sky as your Dreadnought stopped to pet a pretty flower while a team of malevolent Warp-spawn played tether ball with your Sorcerer's recently-detached skull. It also had the added bonus of getting to experience all this while not damning your own soul to the service of insane, alien Gods. Which, when you think about it, is a pretty neat trick.

 

Anymore, this sort of risk really isn't present in the game - or if it is, it's usually implemented in a very one-dimensional manner - which is really a shame. It's a consequence of the post-3rd Edition drive towards a more tournament-friendly game system, and anyone who thinks in terms of win/loss ratios is going to figure out pretty quickly that you're better off playing to the averages. There really is a unique pleasure to gaming with an eye to the narrative, and I wish we saw this supported more robustly, both in the game and in the community.

 

I guess there are as many different opinions as there are Chaos players. I agree with what you say, especially in your final paragraph.

 

But for me, as a non-tournie player, I'm perfectly happy with the randomness of Dreadnoughts and the randomness of Daemon weapons (they both maybe need some fine tuning but in principle I like how they work), but I don't like Possssessed.

 

I guess it depends alot on how you envision Possessed working but I dislike that I could convert a unit all with wings and then roll something else. Or convert a unit as cool Iron Warrior cybernetic possessed, big and heavy with lots of metal, and then rolling Stealth. Now, sure you could contort around and come up with justifications for both but I think to me the difference is that Dreads have randomness in-game but the randomness of Possessed is before/outside the game, if you see what I mean. That's what I dislike.

 

I don't know how you'd correct it as I like the idea of some kind of random mechanic - with both positive/negative options - that functions within the game. Something like a divide between major and minor mutations, with one set you get to pick and another that you roll for during the game that may or may not benefit you. Kinda something that's a choice you can pick pre-game to represent the "inate" effect of that Daemon maybe, like being possessed by a Fury giving wings, by a horror the old Daemonic Fire, etc for X points each and then in-game stuff you roll each turn to represent the capraciousness of the Daemon during the battle which may make your Possessed better, or worse... What do you think of that?

[Frater Uriah]

Personally, I love the Possessed... the idea of them, anyway. Right now, I use them in every Chaos game I play, and in every game they end up getting steamrolled without doing anything. This deflates my opinion of them... :P I read about them in the Word Bearers novels and in The First Heretic, and they should be seven levels of up-armoured awesome, but they're not. You read about them ripping the roof off of a Chimera with their bare hands and putting themselves back together after a point-blank shot to the head, even surviving an encounter with Corax, but I'll say that I've had them wiped out by Eldar Rangers in a single turn, and that Furioso really rained on their parade. And while random can be fun (I still get a perverse thrill when one of my Dreads blazes away at a hapless squad of CSMs with a plasma cannon), Possessed random is not so great. I rolled Scouts in the game where I was obliterated by Eldar Rangers, and Feel No Pain didn't do a lick of good against the Furioso (in fairness, neither did any of my invulnerable save rolls ^_^ ) They're strong, but not tough, and not any kind of force multiplier that I've been able to capitalize on.

 

They should be more customizable. Maybe the whole squad gets the same mutation, which seems more likely than buying something individually for each, but if you want to shell out points for the equivalent of power weapons AND Feels No Pain, bully for you. For crazy fun, there could be a random dice roll in there when they hit the table, but it shouldn't determine the disposition of your relatively expensive force of Possessed that you racked out points for just to put some cool-looking models on the table to be slaughtered. I remember the old Realm of Chaos supplements fondly, and not just for the Daemonic Name Generator.

 

Per the fluff, the Possessed should be one of the most elite of the Elites choices. As they stand right now, they aren't even mediocre.

 

Sorry if this comes off as kind of a rant: this is just one unit I really like, and like to use, that has never failed to not perform on the tabletop.

[firestorm40k]

Alien mercenaries/slaves would be cool, too.

Yeah, I've been thinking it'd be cool to have a race of alien weapons makers that are allied to chaos, a bit like the Chaos Dwarves supplying Chaos armies with hellcannons in WFB.

 

Thinking about the subject of 'new stuff for Chaos when we get our ne 'dex' the other day, I was thinking that about the only thing I'd actually buy and add to my army (it's already pretty huge!) is a skimming, fast, daemon engine, that can bomb stuff. That'd be cool... :D

[Lexington]

But for me, as a non-tournie player, I'm perfectly happy with the randomness of Dreadnoughts and the randomness of Daemon weapons (they both maybe need some fine tuning but in principle I like how they work), but I don't like Possssessed.

I've actually never much liked them either, implementation-wise. In the 3rd and 4th Edition Codexes, you're looking at completely random results that are rarely useful, and the 3.5 system of simply buying a single upgrade was just too ho-hum for what are supposed to be a volatile unit.

 

Really, this is something that I think could be done well with an eye towards a risk/reward mechanic. Perhaps a system like Fabius Bile's "New Men," but with a variable risk factor - spending different points values for different possibilities, but with an all-the-more-disastrous "low-end" result? It's probably not something we'll ever see, given the heavy tournament focus of 5th Edition (and, presumably, beyond), but it might be fun to experiment with.

[Legatus]

The problem is when you get kicked in by something in CC. Because you say my chaos run to save their lives? Well its funny because they all just died... Chaos space marines are some of the best soldiers in the 40k universe... I know we often see the mad side that can seem 'chaotic' but many are still very professional... They understand it is better to fight or at least make some sort of fighting retreat than run away...

A failed morale test essentially means that the unit is convinced that they will be killed if they stay where they are, so they attempt to fall back to a safer position. Obviously in game mechanics it would be preferable if the unit just stayed in combat and tried to kill a a few more enemy models, but that's not how the soldiers who just failed their morale test view the situation.

[Hellios]

The problem is when you get kicked in by something in CC. Because you say my chaos run to save their lives? Well its funny because they all just died... Chaos space marines are some of the best soldiers in the 40k universe... I know we often see the mad side that can seem 'chaotic' but many are still very professional... They understand it is better to fight or at least make some sort of fighting retreat than run away...

A failed morale test essentially means that the unit is convinced that they will be killed if they stay where they are, so they attempt to fall back to a safer position. Obviously in game mechanics it would be preferable if the unit just stayed in combat and tried to kill a a few more enemy models, but that's not how the soldiers who just failed their morale test view the situation.

 

Oh I get that... but when some units fall back they fight in an orderly manner as they go... and they tend to do well compared to those who just break and get mown down... 40k only allows for the 2nd kind... however I think chaos marines are more likely to fight a retreat... which is much like the ATSKNF but without the auto-rally... so what I'm saying is they shouldn't be automatically destroyed.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Oh I get that... but when some units fall back they fight in an orderly manner as they go... and they tend to do well compared to those who just break and get mown down... 40k only allows for the 2nd kind... however I think chaos marines are more likely to fight a retreat... which is much like the ATSKNF but without the auto-rally... so what I'm saying is they shouldn't be automatically destroyed.

 

So basically, give them Combat Tactics? :P

[Dammeron]

Chaos Space Marines should definitely NOT have ATSKNF; that is the reserve of loyalist marines; it helps to define them somewhat. Chaos Space Marines should have something to emphasise their nature; brutal insanity in the name of Chaos, mass mutations erupting throughout the army as the Gods turn their attention to the battlefield. As already mentioned, something akin to the "Eye of the Gods" special rule in the Chaos Warriors FB book would be perfect, if implemented correctly. In terms of game mechanics, it could be implemented in a variety of ways:

 

- For every enemy unit a character/unit in the Chaos Space Marine army list wipes out, roll a D6 at the beginning of the next game turn and consult table blah for the effects (which could range from simple stat upgrades to entire units devolving into chaos spawn or becoming possessed).

- More simple, roll a D6 for every marked character/unit at the beginning of the game (or maybe the beginning of every turn) and consult table X.

 

Or something like that.

 

With regards to leadership or morale based special rules, I think there's a very good argument for making all units (save the likes of Chaos cultists, mutants etc) in a Chaos Space Marine army automatically Fearless. These are, after all, beings who live in Warpstorms like The Eye of Terror; they have seen every horror, every insanity of war and the wider universe; there is nothing else that can faze them. Also, I like the whole "double edged sword" nature of Fearlessness; it seems to fit in well with the megalomaniacal nature of the followers of the Dark Gods; they may very well stand and fight to the last for their Gods, for vengeance, for bitterness, for greed or whatever, but they likely will die for it (atop a heaping pile of their slaughtered enemies, of course).

[Captain Idaho]

I always favoured something similar, called Failure of the Gods.

 

Basically if the unit is defeated in assaults it suffers an additional armour save for the difference it lost the combat like fearless, but for every model killed by Chaos in that combat a wound can be ignored.

 

This means that a losing unit that spills alot of blood will be more favourable to the Chaos Gods, but they are still prone to suffering additional wounds especially if they fail spectacularly.