What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[Legatus]

Oh I get that... but when some units fall back they fight in an orderly manner as they go... and they tend to do well compared to those who just break and get mown down... 40k only allows for the 2nd kind...

The basic fall back is actually meant to represent the first kind. That is why units falling back are still able to fire, for example. This is how it is described in the rulebook on page 45:

 

"A fall back move is a fighting withdrawal rather than an out-and-out rout. Sometimes a fighting retreat in the face of overwhelming odds is the only option left. A withdrawal can give troops the chance to retire to a stronger position, to regroup and mount a fresh attack, or to hold back the approaching enemy."

 

But it is difficult to successfully disengage from an enemy unit that is allready in the process of slaughtering your unit. That's what the initiative comparison is for. A unit might be able to successfully disengage and fall back, and possibly shoot at the enemy in the process (after another fall back move), if not regroup and mount a counter assault. But they also might not be able to successfully disengage, and the enemy unit which has the upper hand cuts them down. That may happen to a squad of Chaos Space Marines. But it will not likely happen against a squad of tactical Marines or Guardsmen. But it might happen when the Chaos Marines are fighting a unit of Genestealers, or a unit of Honour Guard, or a huge overwhelming mob of Orks (though they don't have a high Initiative, so the Chaos Marines will likely manage to disengage from the Orks).

[Boshea]

A regular Chaos Marine should not be better than a regular Loyalist Marine, this is a distinction people have been getting wrong for ages. They should be more experienced. So bascially they should be just a little more efficient at a particular thing. The best way to represent this is veteran skills similar to the Veteran Doctrines in Codex Imperial Guard.

 

If pointed appropriately, there is no reason a Chaos Marines squad can't be have Tank Hunters or Counter Attack bought as an optional upgrade, provided it was paid for at the appropriate points cost.

 

I also think only Chaos Marines should get these skills, not specialised "Cult" units, as they have specialised already.

 

So that means Chosen, Chaos Marines and Havocs, and probably Bikers too.

I suppose that would work better then just straight forward stat boosts. Cult troops will need something though. Currently the main reason you take cult troops is that they're generaly better than a CSM squad with the appropriate icon for the same point value. A group of plague marines is better then a squad of CSM with a Nurgle icon since they also get FnP and Fearless. If CSM get an array of veteran skills that let them out perform cults at the same point values then cult troops will become irrelevant. Giving cult troops back some of their 3.5 goodies like Khornate Chainaxes.

[AoC]

A regular Chaos Marine should not be better than a regular Loyalist Marine, this is a distinction people have been getting wrong for ages. They should be more experienced. So bascially they should be just a little more efficient at a particular thing. The best way to represent this is veteran skills similar to the Veteran Doctrines in Codex Imperial Guard.

 

If pointed appropriately, there is no reason a Chaos Marines squad can't be have Tank Hunters or Counter Attack bought as an optional upgrade, provided it was paid for at the appropriate points cost.

 

I also think only Chaos Marines should get these skills, not specialised "Cult" units, as they have specialised already.

 

So that means Chosen, Chaos Marines and Havocs, and probably Bikers too.

I suppose that would work better then just straight forward stat boosts. Cult troops will need something though. Currently the main reason you take cult troops is that they're generaly better than a CSM squad with the appropriate icon for the same point value. A group of plague marines is better then a squad of CSM with a Nurgle icon since they also get FnP and Fearless. If CSM get an array of veteran skills that let them out perform cults at the same point values then cult troops will become irrelevant. Giving cult troops back some of their 3.5 goodies like Khornate Chainaxes.

 

 

I don't feel that cult troops should be superior to other chaos marines. Oh, and veteran skills don't work as those are no brainers very often. They are just the stopgap to cover sucky unflexible overall rules.

[Captain Idaho]

What's the solution then? We can't change too many fundamentals of 40K to show the difference between a Tactical Marine of the Salamanders, a Tactical Marine from the Blood Angels and Chaos Marine (maybe if we had a scale of 100 for their stats) so we need other ways of doing so in a tight rules set.

 

Things like an extra close combat weapon have been tried, but to be honest I feel like it is an inelogent fix that takes away the purpose of other units in unit in the game. Look at Blood Claws and Grey Hunters right now; almost no one takes Blood Claws now. Having an extra attack doesn't really make a Chaos Marine unit any more experienced, just fiercer in assaults.

 

So what other options are available to us to make Chaos Marines different to Tactical Marines without making them simple inferior copies? Veteran skills are really the only thing I can think of without over complicating the system.

[RapatoR]

why would GW make 2 chaos books when even one is selling bad ?

I mentioned it before, GW can make any book be well selling with apropriate tactics. (Look at DE)

[the jeske]

We will see how the DE will sell in 6 months IMO it wont sell well too much "balance" has been done to the book and armies that requier people to build special scenarios to work properly[more terrain then normaly seen , more or less has to get turn 1 or gets screwed , cant play an alfa strike army against meq etc etc] .

And while you are right that any dex can be given very strong rules , somehow GW "balanced" all their non loyalist dex till now [and probably still be doing this till they remake eldar] . + the weaker the army then the smaller the chance is that you will get someone who actualy knows something about the army[not the fluff , that doesnt matter] and desings a good set of rules.

[Dammeron]

Solution:

 

- Replace Chosen with Traitor Legionnaries, an elite option representing the ancient warriors of the original Traitor Legions. They have better stats (+1WS and A) over you standard chaos space marines, access to a wider variety of equipment and also come with a handy dandy "The Long War" special rule which allows them to make a single selection from a range of special abilities redolent of the original Traitor Legions (e.g. "Night Stalkers" gain stealth and impose a -1 penalty on the Ld of any enemy unit they successfully charge in assault). Traitor Legionnaries may also take Marks of Chaos and be further upgraded to "cult" units for a suitably prohibitive points cost. They are rather expensive points wise.

- Introduce a distinction between Chaos Lords and a more minor "Exalted Champion" style character. Chaos Lords have buffed stats, access to better equipment and upgrades plus the same "The Long War" special rule as Traitor Legionnaries (Daemon Princes now also come with this rule as standard). Any army led by the former counts Traitor Legionnaries as either troops or elites, whereas in an army led by the latter they may only count as elites.

- Remove all of the abstruse and unnecessary "cult unit" entries from the troops section (they are now unnecessary).

- Reintroduce a more standardised "Marks of Chaos" system (any unit in the Chaos Space Marine army list may purchase a Mark of Chaos for a suitable points cost, all models in the same unit must bear the same Mark, Marks impose standard stat upgrades). Any unit bearing a particular Mark may be upgraded with a SINGLE "Gifts of Chaos/Chaos Reward" from a standard list, some of which are redolent of the existing Chaos Cults (Berserkers, Plague Marines etc) others of which are entirely new, allowing for some interesting customisation and conversion potential.

 

- Introduce an army wide "Eye of the Gods" special rule as detailed in prior posts.

- Introduce application of Marks of Chaos for Lesser Daemon and Greater Daemon units along with the ability to apply finite numbers of Chaos Gifts/Rewards for the purposes of customisation.

- Introduce a greater variety of weapons options and rewards for the likes of Chaos Lords, Daemon Princes etc.

- Introduce some abstruse units such as Cultists, mutants etc.

 

 

That would fix most of the current army list's problems, allow for the creation of properly distinct renegade and Traitor Legion armies from a single easy to use army list. Not difficult.

[Frater Uriah]

And add a one-two page per Legion entry on some fluffy rules, like they had back in C:CSM 3.5. Nothing overblown: I don't think that every Legion necessarily needs its own Codex, but they do need something to set them apart from the generic Chaos Space Marines and Renegades.

[Dammeron]

And add a one-two page per Legion entry on some fluffy rules, like they had back in C:CSM 3.5. Nothing overblown: I don't think that every Legion necessarily needs its own Codex, but they do need something to set them apart from the generic Chaos Space Marines and Renegades.

 

 

In the above system, abstruse legion rules are unnecessary; that's the point of it. One of the failings of the 3.5 codex was that it attempted to introduce unnecessary and abstruse alternative army lists when it's perfectly feasible to create a workable and distinct legion specific army from a single list.

 

For example, in the above system, if one wanted to create an army totally derived from the Iron Warriors legion, one would take a Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince as one's commander, upgrade him with a legion-specific rule/skill via the "Long War" special rule (something like "Iron Within...:" every model with this special rule gains Tank Hunters and become stubborn when occupying fortifications), then take Traitor Legionnaries as troops upgraded with the same special rule.

 

Similarly, if one wanted to make an offshoot of the Iron Warriors that had somehow come under the sway of Nurgle, one would do exactly the same but purchase the Mark of Nurgle for each model. It's a good example of how everyone can be catered for via a single all singing, all dancing army list without the need for extraneous army lists or codicies.

[Hellios]

And add a one-two page per Legion entry on some fluffy rules, like they had back in C:CSM 3.5. Nothing overblown: I don't think that every Legion necessarily needs its own Codex, but they do need something to set them apart from the generic Chaos Space Marines and Renegades.

 

 

In the above system, abstruse legion rules are unnecessary; that's the point of it. One of the failings of the 3.5 codex was that it attempted to introduce unnecessary and abstruse alternative army lists when it's perfectly feasible to create a workable and distinct legion specific army from a single list.

 

For example, in the above system, if one wanted to create an army totally derived from the Iron Warriors legion, one would take a Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince as one's commander, upgrade him with a legion-specific rule/skill via the "Long War" special rule (something like "Iron Within...:" every model with this special rule gains Tank Hunters and become stubborn when occupying fortifications), then take Traitor Legionnaries as troops upgraded with the same special rule.

 

Similarly, if one wanted to make an offshoot of the Iron Warriors that had somehow come under the sway of Nurgle, one would do exactly the same but purchase the Mark of Nurgle for each model. It's a good example of how everyone can be catered for via a single all singing, all dancing army list without the need for extraneous army lists or codicies.

 

Your idea is fine as long as the codex is free enought to allow people to take what they want but restricted enough that people can't abuse it. Even with the 'strict' 3.5 sub-lists some would say certain lists could be abused. I'm in favour of a free list but I don't want chaos to be broken, for me this isn't about power. If I want to win with chaos I can make a strong list, this is about choice and that the chaos codex should have more freedom and better internal balance (which is in some way about power, but you can make some things stronger and other weaker it isn't all about ramping it up.)

[Alys]

I have to admit, I like Dammeron's idea. Someone can make themed, fluffy armies that are competitive, while non themed armies or 'own creations' can work just as well.

[Frater Uriah]

Dammeron, I see. So the "Long War" special rule you propose is a kind of catch-all, with Legion-specific buffs built in, like an Accursed Crozius and rhetorical abilities for a Dark Apostle? I am not naysaying: on the contrary, I think it's a very interesting idea, but by its very nature it would be, in my visualising how it would look printed in a Codex, a bit lengthy, like the Wargear and Upgrades section in C:CSM 3.5. So you could buy Daemonic Traits, specialised Wargear, Special Abilities, etc. to custom-build your Legion force within the confines of the rule and restrictions placed upon each Legion? It seems like a pretty long set for one rule.

 

What about breaking it down into two categories: "The Long War" (I really like that as a rule name, by the way) and "Excommunicate Traitoris?" "The Long War" covers those Legions (and separate warbands) who have turned against the Emperor, but are not necessarily up to their necks in debt to the Chaos Gods (think many Iron Warriors warbands or a good number of Night Lords), while "Excommunicate Traitoris" deals with the Traitor Legionnaires who are gleefully doing the will of their dark masters (Word Bearers, Black Legion, and the four monotheistic Legions). "The Long War" could be the combat buff, giving them centuries to thousands of years worth of combat experience, while "Excommunicate Traitoris" would cover the more Daemonic aspects of the Chaos Legions (without necessarily swimming into the province of Codex: Chaos Daemons).

 

I do not propose that the lists be mutually exclusive for ICs, though it would probably make more sense for individual squads (or army builds) to only be able to incorporate one type or the other. So you could concievably build a Dark Apostle, who can make use of both the Long War and Excommunicate Traitoris rules (and will be appropriately expensive to field, though a monster on the tabletop), but his squads of Word Bearers could only take the Excommunicate Traitoris special rule, for example. Or, by the same token, The Exalted, from AD-B's Night Lords novels, could be considered to have both the Long War and Excommunicate Traitoris special rules, but his Night Lords would have access to the Long War.

 

This would not cover Renegades, per se, only the Legions, who have spent millenia entrenched in heresy and mayhem.

 

Any unit or IC could take Marks of Chaos as appropriate, based upon restrictions laid down by their Legions.

 

Just thinking on the keyboard....

[Dammeron]

Dammeron, I see. So the "Long War" special rule you propose is a kind of catch-all, with Legion-specific buffs built in, like an Accursed Crozius and rhetorical abilities for a Dark Apostle? I am not naysaying: on the contrary, I think it's a very interesting idea, but by its very nature it would be, in my visualising how it would look printed in a Codex, a bit lengthy, like the Wargear and Upgrades section in C:CSM 3.5. So you could buy Daemonic Traits, specialised Wargear, Special Abilities, etc. to custom-build your Legion force within the confines of the rule and restrictions placed upon each Legion? It seems like a pretty long set for one rule.

 

What about breaking it down into two categories: "The Long War" (I really like that as a rule name, by the way) and "Excommunicate Traitoris?" "The Long War" covers those Legions (and separate warbands) who have turned against the Emperor, but are not necessarily up to their necks in debt to the Chaos Gods (think many Iron Warriors warbands or a good number of Night Lords), while "Excommunicate Traitoris" deals with the Traitor Legionnaires who are gleefully doing the will of their dark masters (Word Bearers, Black Legion, and the four monotheistic Legions). "The Long War" could be the combat buff, giving them centuries to thousands of years worth of combat experience, while "Excommunicate Traitoris" would cover the more Daemonic aspects of the Chaos Legions (without necessarily swimming into the province of Codex: Chaos Daemons).

 

I do not propose that the lists be mutually exclusive for ICs, though it would probably make more sense for individual squads (or army builds) to only be able to incorporate one type or the other. So you could concievably build a Dark Apostle, who can make use of both the Long War and Excommunicate Traitoris rules (and will be appropriately expensive to field, though a monster on the tabletop), but his squads of Word Bearers could only take the Excommunicate Traitoris special rule, for example. Or, by the same token, The Exalted, from AD-B's Night Lords novels, could be considered to have both the Long War and Excommunicate Traitoris special rules, but his Night Lords would have access to the Long War.

 

This would not cover Renegades, per se, only the Legions, who have spent millenia entrenched in heresy and mayhem.

 

Any unit or IC could take Marks of Chaos as appropriate, based upon restrictions laid down by their Legions.

 

Just thinking on the keyboard....

 

 

I was thinking with regards to the way the current codicies are layed out that there doesn't necessarily need to be a great deal of space relegated to the rules: If you look at the Dark Eldar or Daemon codicies, you have a page before the army list detailing army wide special rules. These wouldn't even require that much space: A single entry before the army list for each would do:

 

- The Long War: Any units with this special rule may be upgraded with a SINGLE ability from the appropriate list for the relevant points cost. All models in a unit must have the same ability.

- Slaves to Darkness (?): Any unit with this special rule may purchase a SINGLE upgrade from the Daemonic Gifts/Chaos Rewards list for the appropriate points cost. All models must have the same upgrade.

 

Then it would simply be a matter of including a note of which units benefit from which special rule in their army list entry rather than needlessly repeating lists of options. Traitor Legionnaries would be distinct in that they have BOTH special rules, their power offset by a prohibitive points cost meaning that armies comprised entirely of them would be extremely elite but very, very small (as has always been the case for Chaos up to the current codex).

 

With regards to limiting abuse of the system, that would largely come down to two things: A: Prohibitive points cost, meaning that the more upgrades you apply, the more elite your models become, the less of them there are. Chaos has always, always, always been characterised by small, elite forces.

 

And B: Some considered restrictions and imagination when it comes to writing rules for the specific upgrades.

 

In order to make the list even easier to use, rather than restricting upgrades based upon what Mark of Chaos a model has, it might be wise to follow the FB Chaos Warrior book's example and provide a smaller, universal list of Chaos Rewards/Daemonic Gifts but which contains certain gifts/upgrades that are redolent of particular God's aspects.

 

 

Alternatively, rather than seperating upgrades into two categories (Long War and Slavces to Darkness), it may be simpler to include them all under a single heading, so that both what would traditionally regarded as legion specific "veteran skills" and chaos gifts come under a single list and are applied in the same way. Now that I think about it, this would also prevent a great deal of abuse as it would mean players wouldhave to make a considered choice between the more secular, legion specific upgrades and the more gribbly, chaotic mutations of the chaos cults etc. Hmmmmm....

[Captain Idaho]

Solution:

 

- Replace Chosen with Traitor Legionnaries, an elite option representing the ancient warriors of the original Traitor Legions. They have better stats (+1WS and A) over you standard chaos space marines, access to a wider variety of equipment and also come with a handy dandy "The Long War" special rule which allows them to make a single selection from a range of special abilities redolent of the original Traitor Legions (e.g. "Night Stalkers" gain stealth and impose a -1 penalty on the Ld of any enemy unit they successfully charge in assault). Traitor Legionnaries may also take Marks of Chaos and be further upgraded to "cult" units for a suitably prohibitive points cost. They are rather expensive points wise.

- Introduce a distinction between Chaos Lords and a more minor "Exalted Champion" style character. Chaos Lords have buffed stats, access to better equipment and upgrades plus the same "The Long War" special rule as Traitor Legionnaries (Daemon Princes now also come with this rule as standard). Any army led by the former counts Traitor Legionnaries as either troops or elites, whereas in an army led by the latter they may only count as elites.

- Remove all of the abstruse and unnecessary "cult unit" entries from the troops section (they are now unnecessary).

- Reintroduce a more standardised "Marks of Chaos" system (any unit in the Chaos Space Marine army list may purchase a Mark of Chaos for a suitable points cost, all models in the same unit must bear the same Mark, Marks impose standard stat upgrades). Any unit bearing a particular Mark may be upgraded with a SINGLE "Gifts of Chaos/Chaos Reward" from a standard list, some of which are redolent of the existing Chaos Cults (Berserkers, Plague Marines etc) others of which are entirely new, allowing for some interesting customisation and conversion potential.

 

- Introduce an army wide "Eye of the Gods" special rule as detailed in prior posts.

- Introduce application of Marks of Chaos for Lesser Daemon and Greater Daemon units along with the ability to apply finite numbers of Chaos Gifts/Rewards for the purposes of customisation.

- Introduce a greater variety of weapons options and rewards for the likes of Chaos Lords, Daemon Princes etc.

- Introduce some abstruse units such as Cultists, mutants etc.

 

 

That would fix most of the current army list's problems, allow for the creation of properly distinct renegade and Traitor Legion armies from a single easy to use army list. Not difficult.

 

By the Emperor, you have solved so many problems in a single stroke!

 

You have fixed Chosen into a worthwhile choice, made a distinction between renegades and Traitor Legionaires and allowed for a way to make a Legion themed force in a single stroke!

 

Essentially, by utilising the Veterans' Doctrine system from Codex Imperial Guard as an upgrade to the Elites choice of Traitor Legionaires, we represent all the Legions without changing things too much.

 

Excellent!

[Frater Uriah]

I was thinking with regards to the way the current codicies are layed out that there doesn't necessarily need to be a great deal of space relegated to the rules: If you look at the Dark Eldar or Daemon codicies, you have a page before the army list detailing army wide special rules. These wouldn't even require that much space: A single entry before the army list for each would do:

 

- The Long War: Any units with this special rule may be upgraded with a SINGLE ability from the appropriate list for the relevant points cost. All models in a unit must have the same ability.

- Slaves to Darkness (?): Any unit with this special rule may purchase a SINGLE upgrade from the Daemonic Gifts/Chaos Rewards list for the appropriate points cost. All models must have the same upgrade.

 

Then it would simply be a matter of including a note of which units benefit from which special rule in their army list entry rather than needlessly repeating lists of options. Traitor Legionnaries would be distinct in that they have BOTH special rules, their power offset by a prohibitive points cost meaning that armies comprised entirely of them would be extremely elite but very, very small (as has always been the case for Chaos up to the current codex).

 

With regards to limiting abuse of the system, that would largely come down to two things: A: Prohibitive points cost, meaning that the more upgrades you apply, the more elite your models become, the less of them there are. Chaos has always, always, always been characterised by small, elite forces.

 

And B: Some considered restrictions and imagination when it comes to writing rules for the specific upgrades.

 

In order to make the list even easier to use, rather than restricting upgrades based upon what Mark of Chaos a model has, it might be wise to follow the FB Chaos Warrior book's example and provide a smaller, universal list of Chaos Rewards/Daemonic Gifts but which contains certain gifts/upgrades that are redolent of particular God's aspects.

 

 

Alternatively, rather than seperating upgrades into two categories (Long War and Slavces to Darkness), it may be simpler to include them all under a single heading, so that both what would traditionally regarded as legion specific "veteran skills" and chaos gifts come under a single list and are applied in the same way. Now that I think about it, this would also prevent a great deal of abuse as it would mean players wouldhave to make a considered choice between the more secular, legion specific upgrades and the more gribbly, chaotic mutations of the chaos cults etc. Hmmmmm....

This is a very interesting idea, and workable. You've addressed my concerns and added some more interesting tidbits, besides. Do you by any chance have a write-up with both ideas codified? I'd be interested in playtesting it.

 

I'll have to look at the FB Chaos Warrior army book to see what all it entails. If all else fails, I have my old, 1st Ed. Lost and the Damned and Slaves to Darkness to pore over in the meantime.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Dear Games Workshop, please commission Dammeron to write the new Chaos Codex

 

Thanks.

 

*send*

[Piousservant]

Solution:

 

- Replace Chosen with Traitor Legionnaries, an elite option representing the ancient warriors of the original Traitor Legions. They have better stats (+1WS and A) over you standard chaos space marines, access to a wider variety of equipment and also come with a handy dandy "The Long War" special rule which allows them to make a single selection from a range of special abilities redolent of the original Traitor Legions (e.g. "Night Stalkers" gain stealth and impose a -1 penalty on the Ld of any enemy unit they successfully charge in assault). Traitor Legionnaries may also take Marks of Chaos and be further upgraded to "cult" units for a suitably prohibitive points cost. They are rather expensive points wise.

- Introduce a distinction between Chaos Lords and a more minor "Exalted Champion" style character. Chaos Lords have buffed stats, access to better equipment and upgrades plus the same "The Long War" special rule as Traitor Legionnaries (Daemon Princes now also come with this rule as standard). Any army led by the former counts Traitor Legionnaries as either troops or elites, whereas in an army led by the latter they may only count as elites.

- Remove all of the abstruse and unnecessary "cult unit" entries from the troops section (they are now unnecessary).

- Reintroduce a more standardised "Marks of Chaos" system (any unit in the Chaos Space Marine army list may purchase a Mark of Chaos for a suitable points cost, all models in the same unit must bear the same Mark, Marks impose standard stat upgrades). Any unit bearing a particular Mark may be upgraded with a SINGLE "Gifts of Chaos/Chaos Reward" from a standard list, some of which are redolent of the existing Chaos Cults (Berserkers, Plague Marines etc) others of which are entirely new, allowing for some interesting customisation and conversion potential.

 

- Introduce an army wide "Eye of the Gods" special rule as detailed in prior posts.

- Introduce application of Marks of Chaos for Lesser Daemon and Greater Daemon units along with the ability to apply finite numbers of Chaos Gifts/Rewards for the purposes of customisation.

- Introduce a greater variety of weapons options and rewards for the likes of Chaos Lords, Daemon Princes etc.

- Introduce some abstruse units such as Cultists, mutants etc.

 

 

That would fix most of the current army list's problems, allow for the creation of properly distinct renegade and Traitor Legion armies from a single easy to use army list. Not difficult.

 

That's a great idea! I really like that.

[A D-B]

Solution:

 

- Replace Chosen with Traitor Legionnaries, an elite option representing the ancient warriors of the original Traitor Legions. They have better stats (+1WS and A) over you standard chaos space marines, access to a wider variety of equipment and also come with a handy dandy "The Long War" special rule which allows them to make a single selection from a range of special abilities redolent of the original Traitor Legions (e.g. "Night Stalkers" gain stealth and impose a -1 penalty on the Ld of any enemy unit they successfully charge in assault). Traitor Legionnaries may also take Marks of Chaos and be further upgraded to "cult" units for a suitably prohibitive points cost. They are rather expensive points wise.

- Introduce a distinction between Chaos Lords and a more minor "Exalted Champion" style character. Chaos Lords have buffed stats, access to better equipment and upgrades plus the same "The Long War" special rule as Traitor Legionnaries (Daemon Princes now also come with this rule as standard). Any army led by the former counts Traitor Legionnaries as either troops or elites, whereas in an army led by the latter they may only count as elites.

- Remove all of the abstruse and unnecessary "cult unit" entries from the troops section (they are now unnecessary).

- Reintroduce a more standardised "Marks of Chaos" system (any unit in the Chaos Space Marine army list may purchase a Mark of Chaos for a suitable points cost, all models in the same unit must bear the same Mark, Marks impose standard stat upgrades). Any unit bearing a particular Mark may be upgraded with a SINGLE "Gifts of Chaos/Chaos Reward" from a standard list, some of which are redolent of the existing Chaos Cults (Berserkers, Plague Marines etc) others of which are entirely new, allowing for some interesting customisation and conversion potential.

 

- Introduce an army wide "Eye of the Gods" special rule as detailed in prior posts.

- Introduce application of Marks of Chaos for Lesser Daemon and Greater Daemon units along with the ability to apply finite numbers of Chaos Gifts/Rewards for the purposes of customisation.

- Introduce a greater variety of weapons options and rewards for the likes of Chaos Lords, Daemon Princes etc.

- Introduce some abstruse units such as Cultists, mutants etc.

 

 

That would fix most of the current army list's problems, allow for the creation of properly distinct renegade and Traitor Legion armies from a single easy to use army list. Not difficult.

 

So, anyway, I love you.

[Ashe Darke]

Ummm some anti-psyker would be nice. And sorcerers that aren't miles behind loyalist ones. Decent dozer blades, relentless termies, T5 or EW Typhus. Raptors that aren't basically chaos assault marines. Better/more elite options. Some elements of loyalist the armoury but at an point increase or with a limitation on how many you can take (too much and you just end up with Codex:SM but with loads of extra goodies). Some of the stuff other people have said.

[Captain Idaho]

They could quite easily have marks of the Legions/dark Primarchs, which grant specific rules. Though I would prefer Legion upgades separate to Marks as we all know some Legionaires follow the occassional God.

[Alys]

Raptors could have Hit and Run as some people have suggested, or failing that, could cause a moral check (or a negative modifier to leadership until the start of the chaos player's next turn) on units within X " around, when they deep strike in, to represent the panic and terror that they cause as they swoop in. It should be easier to break a unit, when the attackers consist of terrible bird-like marines with evil foot-claws that came from the skies.

[Ashe Darke]

Raptors could have Hit and Run as some people have suggested, or failing that, could cause a moral check (or a negative modifier to leadership until the start of the chaos player's next turn) on units within X " around, when they deep strike in, to represent the panic and terror that they cause as they swoop in. It should be easier to break a unit, when the attackers consist of terrible bird-like marines with evil foot-claws that came from the skies.

Pretty much. It doesn't need a lot just something to represent their tactics. And some nice plastic models to go with them.

[Lexington]

Solution:

 

<<print:Genius>>

Damn, man. Even coming from the "no need for Legion rules" side of the street, I'm in awe of this plan. I'm not huge on the proposal for Cult Troops, but overall...wow. Brilliantly done. Have you seen The Codex Project? This might be something to take over there.

[Cornelias]

personally i'll like to see the legions represented by forgeworld in an IA book, they've done a really good job in the latest Badab War ones with regards to special characters and new rules etc. Of coarse i'm being completely selfish with that thought as i only play fairly friendly games with a group of mates these days and i realize that the competitive tourny players would have a huge problem (rightfully) with that.

 

But i can still dream all the same :teehee:

 

 

With regards to a few comments about sales of Chaos being low so they won't be high priority, i for one would return to Chaos if they did produce a more interesting set of builds and options and i'm betting i'm not the only person that feels that way. it saddens me that i no longer play them as i have done since 2nd edition.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Solution:

 

- Replace Chosen with Traitor Legionnaries, an elite option representing the ancient warriors of the original Traitor Legions. They have better stats (+1WS and A) over you standard chaos space marines, access to a wider variety of equipment and also come with a handy dandy "The Long War" special rule which allows them to make a single selection from a range of special abilities redolent of the original Traitor Legions (e.g. "Night Stalkers" gain stealth and impose a -1 penalty on the Ld of any enemy unit they successfully charge in assault). Traitor Legionnaries may also take Marks of Chaos and be further upgraded to "cult" units for a suitably prohibitive points cost. They are rather expensive points wise.

- Introduce a distinction between Chaos Lords and a more minor "Exalted Champion" style character. Chaos Lords have buffed stats, access to better equipment and upgrades plus the same "The Long War" special rule as Traitor Legionnaries (Daemon Princes now also come with this rule as standard). Any army led by the former counts Traitor Legionnaries as either troops or elites, whereas in an army led by the latter they may only count as elites.

- Remove all of the abstruse and unnecessary "cult unit" entries from the troops section (they are now unnecessary).

- Reintroduce a more standardised "Marks of Chaos" system (any unit in the Chaos Space Marine army list may purchase a Mark of Chaos for a suitable points cost, all models in the same unit must bear the same Mark, Marks impose standard stat upgrades). Any unit bearing a particular Mark may be upgraded with a SINGLE "Gifts of Chaos/Chaos Reward" from a standard list, some of which are redolent of the existing Chaos Cults (Berserkers, Plague Marines etc) others of which are entirely new, allowing for some interesting customisation and conversion potential.

 

- Introduce an army wide "Eye of the Gods" special rule as detailed in prior posts.

- Introduce application of Marks of Chaos for Lesser Daemon and Greater Daemon units along with the ability to apply finite numbers of Chaos Gifts/Rewards for the purposes of customisation.

- Introduce a greater variety of weapons options and rewards for the likes of Chaos Lords, Daemon Princes etc.

- Introduce some abstruse units such as Cultists, mutants etc.

 

 

That would fix most of the current army list's problems, allow for the creation of properly distinct renegade and Traitor Legion armies from a single easy to use army list. Not difficult.

 

I'm down with this. Where do I sign the petition?