What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[the jeske]

But you have illustrated my point about the problems with the old Codex; to beat them you needed an army with 30+ rending shots per turn, which was a bad thing.

why was it wrong? it was legal and effective . it fit the fluff sm had at the time , it didnt use FW rules [like a siege company with hellfire mortars] . It also had bad match ups , non of the top lists in the 4th had auto win or could go auto pilot unlike some armies can go in this edition .

 

 

Eldar on the other hand have been cheesey for a while and nothing will change that in a new Codex I would imagine!

which build ? both foodar and circus had bad match ups . Sure they were good against sm builds , but it they werent cheezy in anyway . they couldnt win turn 1 [unlike a sm list which if it got realy lucky , due to the number of rending shots could table stuff realy well] , the cirucus after going out of falcons was very fragile [not against 5 man minimax , but it did have problems with nids or when someone played with 8-10 man squads] . They will probably get a very good codex , since the last dex half the studio always played eldar and if the main designer wont try to "balance" the dex we will see a new IG dex [good rules , supported by some undercosted options ] .

 

 

 

To be honest I dont understand the mind set DT had doing this edition . If it was suppose to be more noob friendly [bigger armies , true LoS , codex >rule book till the last FAQ , cover +4 , buffed up tanks/transports etc] then making it possible to build IG armies or some SW builds[ok or very good in a tournament setting , but very hard to play against with a noob army] makes no sense . Specialy when the gap between dex is rather big . I mean when the main desinger tells you that you should "more terrain when playing DE" it kind of a sucks .

[Captain Idaho]

But you have illustrated my point about the problems with the old Codex; to beat them you needed an army with 30+ rending shots per turn, which was a bad thing.

why was it wrong? it was legal and effective . it fit the fluff sm had at the time , it didnt use FW rules [like a siege company with hellfire mortars] . It also had bad match ups , non of the top lists in the 4th had auto win or could go auto pilot unlike some armies can go in this edition .

 

You take things too seriously!

 

By the way, surely you can see what's wrong with the Assault Cannon lists being required to compete at 4th edition? GW got rid of it for a reason...

[Boshea]

I kinda want Slaughterfiends as a regular troop choice. They're not even that crazy when you compare them with a Blood Angel Furioso Dreadnaught.

[Hellios]

But you have illustrated my point about the problems with the old Codex; to beat them you needed an army with 30+ rending shots per turn, which was a bad thing.

why was it wrong? it was legal and effective . it fit the fluff sm had at the time , it didnt use FW rules [like a siege company with hellfire mortars] . It also had bad match ups , non of the top lists in the 4th had auto win or could go auto pilot unlike some armies can go in this edition .

 

You take things too seriously!

 

By the way, surely you can see what's wrong with the Assault Cannon lists being required to compete at 4th edition? GW got rid of it for a reason...

 

but then the other armies he mentions were also wrong... and I did not see them get hit with the nerf stick as much... Also you didn't need 30+ rending shots... jeske was just giving you an example of what could be done... and no eldar are not cheesy but by their very nature if used well will hurt a lot due to specialising in roles... if they are that cheesy they would be winning every event now... the real problem is people tend to tailor lists for all comers but with a focus on MEQ death... While most marine players will make an all comers list that also if anything will focus on MEQ death... not eldar or ork death... that is why eldar and ork lists often do better than they might because as orks or eldar you know you have a good chance of fighting some sort of marine... as a marine player you have a lower chance of fighting orks or eldar and even then you don't know which (maybe both?) you will come up against.

 

In the new eldar dex they nerfed the star cannon... was it because the starcannon was over-powered or under-priced? No it wasn't but if you took 33 (99 S6 AP2 shots) in a 1,500pt that made a mess of marine armies of the time... personally I only ever took 1 or 2 starcannons normally on my terminator hunter wraithlord. In the tourny scene due to loads of marines however people did take a ton... marines are victims of their own success. Trust me if 66% of tourny lists became mech eldar you would see loads of marine lists/guard lists with auto-cannons doing well... actually they are doing pretty well already because auto-cannons work against almost all transports...

 

The thing isn't an issue with a balance between codices (at least at the top) but a balance between units and options within a codex... Chaos was good because it has about 10 lists that while they were not all the same (in terms of power) they could put up a good fight... with eldar again you had a good number of lists (not as many but a good number)... So if a codex has only one list or even no lists that can put up a fight against the better lists of other codices maybe it is the fact that those codices are under-powered and/or have very poor internal balance.

 

Also don't call eldar cheesy... just because eldar players choose to use specific tools for a job rather than a swiss knife for everything dosen't make them cheesy ;)

[Zhukov]

non of the top lists in the 4th had auto win or could go auto pilot unlike some armies can go in this edition .

 

Specialy when the gap between dex is rather big . I mean when the main desinger tells you that you should "more terrain when playing DE" it kind of a sucks .

 

You seem to hint at a bad balance in current 40k...if that's true then I have to disagree really. Every 5th edition codex is pretty darn competative... Including Nids and DE. Wolves and IG aren't that much better as people seem to hint at constantly; it's just easier to make good builds with them. (it's not hard to see that Vet in Chims + Vendettas are good for example, same goes for GH's/rune priest/long fang/TWC combination) This difference goes away though when somebody competent decides to play with a Tyranids or BA codex for example. Nids do trouble a bit with SW spamming Missiles though...but that aside.

 

Really 40k is getting VERY balanced at the moment and that's entirely logical because all the new codices are made with this edition in mind... And at least old armies like Tau, Eldar and Witch Hunters still have 1 more or less competative build at least...

[Notanoob]

You seem to hint at a bad balance in current 40k...if that's true then I have to disagree really. Every 5th edition codex is pretty darn competative... Including Nids and DE. Wolves and IG aren't that much better as people seem to hint at constantly; it's just easier to make good builds with them. (it's not hard to see that Vet in Chims + Vendettas are good for example, same goes for GH's/rune priest/long fang/TWC combination) This difference goes away though when somebody competent decides to play with a Tyranids or BA codex for example. Nids do trouble a bit with SW spamming Missiles though...but that aside.

 

Really 40k is getting VERY balanced at the moment and that's entirely logical because all the new codices are made with this edition in mind... And at least old armies like Tau, Eldar and Witch Hunters still have 1 more or less competative build at least...

Don't even kid yourself, some codexes are clearly better than others. Have you compared Space Marines vs. Space Wolves? Wolves get all sorts of cool benefits, like Long Fang's 5 heavy weapon and split fire, improved CC abilities for no extra cost, Thunder Wolf cavalry and Logan's craziness, with really few minor drawbacks, they are literally Space Marines +1. Imperial Guard? Probably takes less skill to win with an IG net list than any other army, god forbid you face someone who's actually played guard for awhile and has fine tuned his list. But nids? They aren't on the same level. Sure you can say "it just takes a competent general" but no only is that a bit condescending to nid players who dislike the new dex, but also is an unfair comparison, which only works if the opponent stays at the same level. Take two equally skilled players, have them play each other 100 times, and the one who uses IG will win 60 to 70% of the time, because his dex is simply more powerful.

 

"Very balanced" If you need factor in extra skill to one side to get equal results, then it isn't balanced. If one army can be just picked up and is easy to win with, while the other required months of testing to get to 50/50, then the game isn't balanced.

[d@n]

I would also like to see drop pods, 1000 sons in drop pods would be amazing. A few other things i would llike to see for 1000 sons would be to allow them to take a heavy weapon in each squad, as a ap3 heavy bolter that you can move and fire would mean people would start using heavy bolters again and i would also like to be able to use doom bolt in the assault phase which would make up for the lack of powerfists in a 1000 son army.

 

I would like renagade marines as a troop choice with a rule like the BA have for death co dreads meaning for every squad of renagades you took you can take a land speeder ect

[Hellios]

"Very balanced" If you need factor in extra skill to one side to get equal results, then it isn't balanced. If one army can be just picked up and is easy to win with, while the other required months of testing to get to 50/50, then the game isn't balanced.

 

Hmmm I somewhat disagree. You need to compare two equally good players (with their respective armies) who understand the opponents army using good lists in high level game play.

 

Now what I'm about to say is for example.... If using the 'easy' space wolf list the difference between a player at a moderate player and 'world' level is only 10% increase in how much havoc the list is going to cause... However if the 'hard' DE has a 50% increase in power as a player moves from moderate abillity to 'world' class then balance can well be there... As both armies now might be at '100' or maybe the DE list actually over-takes the space wolves with '105 power points'.

 

Even if the difference in power isn't different if DE are harder to use then the other player is less likely to have experiance against them and so that can go in your favour.

 

If masters of a martial art fight each other and are at at equal level then neither has an advantage as such. The fact that one has done Shotokan Karate (or whatever... Karate isn't my thing) for 10 years and the other 'mystical dragon lotus stance than no one has ever seen before' for 20 isn't really an issue.

 

Someone can pick up a slegdehammer and crush someones skull without training... but hit someone in the eye and kill them with a throwing knife might take a long time and the longer someone has done it the more sure they can be and they can try from further away... Both have equally good chance of killing each other if they get things right... The guy with the throwing knife might have an advantage with his alpha strike :lol:

[Captain Idaho]

You seem to hint at a bad balance in current 40k...if that's true then I have to disagree really. Every 5th edition codex is pretty darn competative... Including Nids and DE. Wolves and IG aren't that much better as people seem to hint at constantly; it's just easier to make good builds with them. (it's not hard to see that Vet in Chims + Vendettas are good for example, same goes for GH's/rune priest/long fang/TWC combination) This difference goes away though when somebody competent decides to play with a Tyranids or BA codex for example. Nids do trouble a bit with SW spamming Missiles though...but that aside.

 

Really 40k is getting VERY balanced at the moment and that's entirely logical because all the new codices are made with this edition in mind... And at least old armies like Tau, Eldar and Witch Hunters still have 1 more or less competative build at least...

Don't even kid yourself, some codexes are clearly better than others. Have you compared Space Marines vs. Space Wolves? Wolves get all sorts of cool benefits, like Long Fang's 5 heavy weapon and split fire, improved CC abilities for no extra cost, Thunder Wolf cavalry and Logan's craziness, with really few minor drawbacks, they are literally Space Marines +1. Imperial Guard? Probably takes less skill to win with an IG net list than any other army, god forbid you face someone who's actually played guard for awhile and has fine tuned his list. But nids? They aren't on the same level. Sure you can say "it just takes a competent general" but no only is that a bit condescending to nid players who dislike the new dex, but also is an unfair comparison, which only works if the opponent stays at the same level. Take two equally skilled players, have them play each other 100 times, and the one who uses IG will win 60 to 70% of the time, because his dex is simply more powerful.

 

"Very balanced" If you need factor in extra skill to one side to get equal results, then it isn't balanced. If one army can be just picked up and is easy to win with, while the other required months of testing to get to 50/50, then the game isn't balanced.

 

I agree with Zhukov as I feel most of the Codex books are servicable. The thing is some are easier to use than others. It's the old Dark Eldar thing; always tough to use but when utilised correctly they are very powerful and nasty. Tyranids are like that, and Space Marines.

 

The thing with Space Marines is they are difficult to use sometimes. They are very tough to beat but it is hard to win with them. The trick with them is to force the opponent to over commit to beating you (taking the game to you) and being damn tougher or better (or shootier depending on who you are facing) than them and thus they break on your army and you can win.

 

In a way you need to play for a draw in the first couple turns with Space Marines, being conservative until you are ready to finish the opponent or steal an objective.

 

Against SW and BA it is even harder to see the best solution. The good news is you know they will usually be attacking you, so you can still try and wear them down. Sure in some ways they outclass you, but you should have the numbers and firepower to be able to have an edge. This is especially true if you take Landspeeders to increase your firepower and don't take the Terminators and Landraider people think are compulsory in a Space Marines army.

 

Hell, that last combo is what is wrong with Space Marines now-a-days. People try and fit them into every list when they are only good for a couple of builds that exenuate their strengths.

 

Anyway, yeah that's why I agree with Zhukov. :D

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

A few post are going a little off topic. Rememeber this topic is about "What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?"

 

IP

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah that's partly my fault. My apologies.

 

Getting things back on track;

 

a brief summary of a common theme people want to see is variance and susbstance in the army list and background sections.

[Alys]

I would want the codex to reward creativity in regards to making army lists. Something that allows users to take things that they find fluffy, and yet still have some chance of winning... which compared to now, you even deviate slightly from the 2DP/Plague/Oblits, your chance of winning, or even competiting, is in the single digits*.

 

So a Dread can go crazy, but if it doesn't (or on a high roll), it becomes pretty darn beastly. Maybe a '6' allow it to gain daemonic possession, where the chaos marine inside the dread has finally snapped, and an opportunistic daemon has decided to take over. No more rolls are needed (As the daemon is pretty much happy to be in the physical plane, AND inside a walking tank too), it gains the usual daemonic possession bonuses, but at the end of the game, cannot be counted as a scoring or contesting unit, as the daemon will have warped the dreadnought into some kind of metal-flesh being, and then walked off to cause more chaos and destruction. (If it counts as a VP to the opponent too, then it's that drive of "Yes! I got a 6! Ah darn I need to get at least 2VP more than my opponent now to win!")

 

 

*Will state that I've not yet played a game, thus I go on what others say... however I intend to run both Raptors and twin dreadnoughts, as I find them beautiful, and while I hope the dreads slaughter my opponent, I'll laugh myself silly if I roll 1's and take out most of my own forces.

[Lady_Canoness]

Like Alys (and probably many others) I want to see a nod in the direction of our Dreadnoughts.

 

I LIKE the fact that they are crazy and have the chance to kill our own guys, but they should bring back the 3.5 insanity rules which make shooting twice not *always* bad, and make charging something very good (doubling attacks on the charge was brilliant, I think).

Also, I would like to be able to Mark out Dreads much like the 3.5 vehicle dedication. If it was possible to take them as both heavies and elites (doubt it will happen) that would also be amazing. I don't want psyker dreadnoughts or character dreadnoughts or sane dreadnoughts - all I want is the chance to make them Chaos Insane instead of straight-up Insane.

 

Also, bring back the 2-wound option for HQs, and retinues... and make Daemon Princes like the name implies in abilities, options, and cost.

[boyd]

what made the Chaos Space Marine army cool was their Lords and Elite. Their troops had vet skills - they were the TRUE elite army. Few in number but very tough nuts to crack. Problem with them now is they are more codex than most of the loyalists. We had variety now we have none... Sure we have some cool stuff, but our characters suck and are bland. Everyone else can just do a better job.

 

What can chaos do that loyalist marines do better? Its a sad state of affairs.

 

My Word Bearers used to consist of 9 troop choices. I had ALL 9 choices in place - now I'm stuck with tons of demons that I can't use any more and an army where I want a Heavy Weapon, I need to use a Heavy Support Slot as its worthless to take 10 CSM's to get 1 HW... especially when I can't combat squad them. Oh we can't move, we need to make use of our heavy bolter...

 

I just want to more elite. Like the Space Wolves or Blood Angels (Codex: Retard).

 

I guess its Codex Creep...

[ShiftyWolf]

I, like Lady_Canoness, also liked the 2-wound option for HQ's. Makes sense to have a lieutenant or a somewhat weaker sorcerer then opposed to having your big scary lord leading your force and having a sorcerer who already costs more than the lord and has no psychic powers. Space Marine librarians already get a free power or two which is just nuts... rant rant rant.

 

On the otherhand I don't have too much of a problem with dreadnoughts, seeing as I always just give mine 2 close combat weapons and a heavy flamer and push it in the direction of the enemy with an encouraging 'go get 'em Slashhappy' (figuratively speaking). But giving them marks again would be pretty sweet.

[Frater Uriah]

Like Alys (and probably many others) I want to see a nod in the direction of our Dreadnoughts.

 

I LIKE the fact that they are crazy and have the chance to kill our own guys, but they should bring back the 3.5 insanity rules which make shooting twice not *always* bad, and make charging something very good (doubling attacks on the charge was brilliant, I think).

Also, I would like to be able to Mark out Dreads much like the 3.5 vehicle dedication. If it was possible to take them as both heavies and elites (doubt it will happen) that would also be amazing. I don't want psyker dreadnoughts or character dreadnoughts or sane dreadnoughts - all I want is the chance to make them Chaos Insane instead of straight-up Insane.

 

Also, bring back the 2-wound option for HQs, and retinues... and make Daemon Princes like the name implies in abilities, options, and cost.

Concur all. While I doubt that Dreads will ever be able to fill the both Heavy and Elites slots in another CSM Codex (though Blood Angels can, depending on the Dreadnought, and can be a Troops choice for Death Company, which is stupid crazy, but so is a Librarian Dreadnought....), our Dreads should get both Marks and random bouts of extreme, berserk ferocity, which could potentially be good for our side or bad for it, but is fun either way.

 

Our Daemon Prince should be no different than the one that can be extraordinarily customised from Codex: Chaos Daemons, with the Iron Hide 3+ armour save factored into his cost automatically. Additionally, like the Daemon Prince from C:CD, our Daemons should NOT have to make Psychic tests to use 'psychic' abilities, which is a ridiculous concept, anyway, since they are one with the warp. Otherwise, the one we have now is good (I destroyed a Furioso Dreadnought and a Baal Predator in two turns with mine just last night, though he was unfortunately shot to death later, thanks to really bad save rolls), but I think a Daemon Prince should be a Daemon Prince should be a Daemon Prince across the sadly-separated Chaos Codeci.

[d@n]

Like Alys (and probably many others) I want to see a nod in the direction of our Dreadnoughts.

 

I LIKE the fact that they are crazy and have the chance to kill our own guys, but they should bring back the 3.5 insanity rules which make shooting twice not *always* bad, and make charging something very good (doubling attacks on the charge was brilliant, I think).

Also, I would like to be able to Mark out Dreads much like the 3.5 vehicle dedication. If it was possible to take them as both heavies and elites (doubt it will happen) that would also be amazing. I don't want psyker dreadnoughts or character dreadnoughts or sane dreadnoughts - all I want is the chance to make them Chaos Insane instead of straight-up Insane.

 

Also, bring back the 2-wound option for HQs, and retinues... and make Daemon Princes like the name implies in abilities, options, and cost.

Let us have drop pods or another way of deep striking and dreadnoughts would be alot better. dropping a twin auto cannon dred infront of a unit and then having it go mental and double shooting would make up for the chance of it killing your own lads.

[Frater Uriah]

A plastic Dreadclaw kit would be nice, though, according to Night Lords fluff, they use Drop Pods. Add spiky bits, if desired, and voila! Instant Chaos Space Marine drop pod!

 

I don't understand how Space Marine doctrine, even if they've fallen to Chaos, so significantly changes that they are now, for some reason, incapable of insertion via drop pod. Somebody please explain that one to me.

[Captain Idaho]

I completely disagree with the notion Daemon Princes don't roll Psychic tests. The Warp is fickle and using it in the Material realm is not easy, especially for a creature for whom the Material realm is alien to them...

 

I don't understand how Space Marine doctrine, even if they've fallen to Chaos, so significantly changes that they are now, for some reason, incapable of insertion via drop pod. Somebody please explain that one to me.

 

Think it is internal balance and what the vehicle represents on a table. The Imperium largely has space superiority in many battles and in others the notion of a swift strike force suits Space Marines. Whilst Chaos Marines would also make use of swift strikes, their stereotype is for a sledgehammer attack, bringing hell to the inhabitants of a planet.

 

It's essentially promoting a stereotype to get a unique feel on the table top. Chaos Marines (when a Codex is done correctly!) have enough of a unique feel without having to borrow another Race's unique feel.

 

But then GW might decide they don't mind this cross over, which is fair enough. At the monent I think the above is the reason why not though, which is why the Defiler was created, because people wanted vehicles that were unique to Chaos Marines instead of borrowed from Loyalists.

[d@n]

I completely disagree with the notion Daemon Princes don't roll Psychic tests. The Warp is fickle and using it in the Material realm is not easy, especially for a creature for whom the Material realm is alien to them...

 

I don't understand how Space Marine doctrine, even if they've fallen to Chaos, so significantly changes that they are now, for some reason, incapable of insertion via drop pod. Somebody please explain that one to me.

 

Think it is internal balance and what the vehicle represents on a table. The Imperium largely has space superiority in many battles and in others the notion of a swift strike force suits Space Marines. Whilst Chaos Marines would also make use of swift strikes, their stereotype is for a sledgehammer attack, bringing hell to the inhabitants of a planet.

 

It's essentially promoting a stereotype to get a unique feel on the table top. Chaos Marines (when a Codex is done correctly!) have enough of a unique feel without having to borrow another Race's unique feel.

 

But then GW might decide they don't mind this cross over, which is fair enough. At the monent I think the above is the reason why not though, which is why the Defiler was created, because people wanted vehicles that were unique to Chaos Marines instead of borrowed from Loyalists.

dread claws then or stormravens or webway portholes ect just someway to get things like dreads and 1000 sons into range. dreadclaws are fluffy, stormravens are more fluffy for chaos then for BA as they were treated for the unification wars and in the hh books there everywere and i dont see why a chaos sorcerer couldnt open a portal from the warp to get some extra ptoops.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd prefer something that brought highlighted their Chaotic allegience, rather than just port a vehicle from another Codex out of jealousy. Gate, the Librarian power, is particularly useful if considered for a Chaos Sorceror. Especially with all the icons of Chaos people have, a similar power could be made that would help make large hoard style Chaos Marine units viable again.

 

I think people need to think outside the box instead of just saying, "I want it because they have it." After all, before Marines got a Drop Pod, you didn't see Chaos Marines wanting Dreadclaws despite existing in the fluff.

 

GW have a business need to create a unique feeling for each race to assist sales, after all look at what happened with the recent Chaos Marines Codex. Just porting in other armies vehicles is not the way to do this and I would imagine GW would feel similar.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for some new piece of kit unique to Chaos Marines that solves some of the issues in the Codex, I just want it done creatively and not with a short cut. I want this because I loved facing Chaos Marines in the past but now find it boring, predictable and just no fun anymore.

[d@n]

I like the horde idea. One of the unique things about chaos over other power armour armys is the unit sizes we can take. I think something like a fast land raider with the las cannons removed and transport capacity increased would be good and different,

20 zerkers charging out of one of them would be fun. maybe swap out the twin linked heavy bolter for a twin linked multimelta, for around 150 points and have it as a personel transport.

 

or maybe a dark mechanic who could give you 6" cover save bubble a bit like a big mek so then you could march your troops up behind defilers without all your defilers being destroyed by turn 2.

or an apocarathy or some other way of giving units other then plague marines feel no pain, is gav thorpe telling me fabius bile is the only apocarathy left? when the traitor legions turned did all the apocarathy and for that matter tech marines chaplains jump packers just drop there unique equipment and training pick up a bolt gun and join the black legion.

[Frater Uriah]

I completely disagree with the notion Daemon Princes don't roll Psychic tests. The Warp is fickle and using it in the Material realm is not easy, especially for a creature for whom the Material realm is alien to them...

 

I don't understand how Space Marine doctrine, even if they've fallen to Chaos, so significantly changes that they are now, for some reason, incapable of insertion via drop pod. Somebody please explain that one to me.

 

Think it is internal balance and what the vehicle represents on a table. The Imperium largely has space superiority in many battles and in others the notion of a swift strike force suits Space Marines. Whilst Chaos Marines would also make use of swift strikes, their stereotype is for a sledgehammer attack, bringing hell to the inhabitants of a planet.

 

It's essentially promoting a stereotype to get a unique feel on the table top. Chaos Marines (when a Codex is done correctly!) have enough of a unique feel without having to borrow another Race's unique feel.

 

But then GW might decide they don't mind this cross over, which is fair enough. At the monent I think the above is the reason why not though, which is why the Defiler was created, because people wanted vehicles that were unique to Chaos Marines instead of borrowed from Loyalists.

As far as Daemon Princes and Psychic tests go, I'd be all for taking one, if it were universal for all Daemons. The Daemons in C:CD, including their Daemon Prince, who may have come from the Astartes, do not require one, while the C:CSM Daemon Prince does. There is also the cost disparity, as well as the Swiss Army Knife customisability of the C:CD Daemon Prince. My Daemon Prince is great when he's on the table with my Word Bearers, but when I put him in as an Elites choice with my Daemons, he's awesome. I'd settle for a middle ground.

 

As far as balance between armies and unique looks and feels, I get that, too. It just strikes me as odd that, per the fluff, which is a huge part of the GW marketing system, Night Lords can make massive drop pod assaults, and it was a solid part of the Sons of Horus' combat doctrine. I find it difficult to believe that, 9,000 years ago, somebody on the Spirit of Vengeance jettisoned all the drop pods, and nobody thought to requisition or steal others. :lol: A bit of customisability, especially since so many of the former Legions are peerless scavengers and raiders, and others, like the Word Bearers, have their own Forge Worlds, would lend itself nicely to C:CSM, and probably quit a lot of players' gripes. I'm not talking about wholesale Spearhead formations of Basilisks (well, maybe for the Iron Warriors), but a 0-1 choice for certain CSM armies, varied by army type (there I am getting back into the halcyon days of 3.5...) would not be terrible.

[Captain Idaho]

Ha true, but if we are going down that route you could say why don't any of the First Founding Chapters still have Havok Launchers, because they are obviously effective and cheap to manufacture since you can put them on all your vehicles?

 

We have to make a choice unfortunately, as not everything in the fluff can be represented in the game.

 

As for Daemon Prince disparity within Codex books; I don't see why Chaos Daemons should be exempt from psychic tests. Only the Tzeentch ones have alot of psychic attacks anyway, the rest are localised to single models etc.

 

But then that is a different story really, as that Codex really needs work too...

[Frater Uriah]

As for Daemon Prince disparity within Codex books; I don't see why Chaos Daemons should be exempt from psychic tests. Only the Tzeentch ones have alot of psychic attacks anyway, the rest are localised to single models etc.

 

But then that is a different story really, as that Codex really needs work too...

No argument there. :)