What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[Shas'o R'Vre]

It is called an index... well I guess that depends where in the book it is... I find it far easier to find rules in the BBB than in the codices.... and certainly it would be better than having to get your list from multiple codices if say you had marines and daemons and so you needed more than one book.

But if you condense what is effectively 5 Codeces into one book, there is going to be a lot of stuff you never use if you only play one legion (plus it'd be expensive to buy the codex just for one legion)

 

Sure you'd have a lot of redundancy and repeated stuff in different books, but if you played exclusively World Eaters or a splinter legion, then it'd be easier to find the World Eaters specific stuff in an entry for say... Havocs, than in a book where you have to read around all the Thousand Sons/EC/DG/Undivided options too.

[Spacefrisian]

2 more seats in the land raider (why do loyalist troops have 'em & we don't? It's STC)

 

[\rant]

 

 

If you keep better track of stuff you would know that that was a mistake from GW, so you wont see those in the future.

[Zhukov]

I want:

 

-A good Land Raider variant with proper rules. (so no Godhammer pattern and especially not without MM and PotMS)

-Fixing our Fast Attack section. (so proper point costs at least, but some kind of Speeder-like option would be nice too)

-Fixing our HQ section. (make sorcerer more supportive, Lords either very killy or let them buff units or change FOC, some proper SC's wouldnt be bad either)

-Fixing our Troop section. (make Berzerkers/1k Sons/Noise Marines either cheaper or better)

-Fixing our Elite section. (fix possessed, fix dreads, make Chosen interesting)

 

I dont really care about fluffy stuff (although it would be nice), but a boring codex ánd bad internal balance is just a bad codex for everyone.

[the jeske]

yeah only loyalist have the crusader and versions of it , we dont . it is easy for a BA or SW player to say it was just a GW error to make transports bigger [in fact there was no error , GW just wanted to avoid 11 man strong GH packs or 10 man RAS+HQ or priest inside because of balance] , when they have options to avoid those problems . we dont . + the lack of PoTMS makes our LR worse then the ones DAs have and that is something .

 

I doubt we get legion rules or stuff like 3.5 had. maybe DPs will have more options , we already have to many specials [and GW wont cut them ] and I doubt they would make one for legions to change FoC . At best we get something like chronus or telion , squad upgrade charas that will let us make a single squads [a raptor NL that gives raptors hit and run back , or a AL dude that makes the squad more AL etc ]. they wont make 3 or 4 chaos dex just to make chaos more fluffy. I doubt they will support the 2 they have now .

 

We should have a better dex end of 6th ed [so in 2 dex time] if we get luck , but we may as well end up with something realy crapy . lets say they nerf DPS and oblits because everyone plays them and give nothing in return , with tons of "cool and new " options but nothing that actualy works .

[Hellios]

It is called an index... well I guess that depends where in the book it is... I find it far easier to find rules in the BBB than in the codices.... and certainly it would be better than having to get your list from multiple codices if say you had marines and daemons and so you needed more than one book.

But if you condense what is effectively 5 Codeces into one book, there is going to be a lot of stuff you never use if you only play one legion (plus it'd be expensive to buy the codex just for one legion)

 

Sure you'd have a lot of redundancy and repeated stuff in different books, but if you played exclusively World Eaters or a splinter legion, then it'd be easier to find the World Eaters specific stuff in an entry for say... Havocs, than in a book where you have to read around all the Thousand Sons/EC/DG/Undivided options too.

 

Pfff I would argue that it depends on how awesome the book is...

 

So you play Iron Warriors eh...

 

So you have all the basic gubbins... + some of the daemon engines (maybe not all) + Khorne cult units (at least some not all) + daemons (I would guess in limited amounts... unless we awake the chaos machine god once more from his slumber...) + traitor guard units + mutants + cultists + whatever fodder the lost and the damned have with them... You actually have access to most of the stuff...

 

It is the cult legions who don't get most of the stuff but it is easy to tell what they can have because it has Mark of Khorne or Mark of Tzeentch or whatever god you are doing next to it....

 

Would it be expensive... well I'm guessing around £50... would it be worth it... hell yeah!

 

CHAOS SHALL RISE AGAIN!

[Notanoob]

I personally think that the whole Renegades angle needs to be abandoned all together. They're far to similar to loyalists, with only a handful of ways to distinguish them. Legions are the heart and soul of Chaos, and they're interesting and unique. We can't fit all of the possible angles into one codex, so some need to go and Renegades are the start. The codex(es?) should be split into 3 parts: Black Legion, DG/EC/TS/WE, and AL/IW/NL/WB. Then, we need to go radical. Theses guys are Legionaries, veterans of the Long War and 10,000 years old. They will all be veterans to start with i.e. A2 Ld9, and then throw on the legion benefits. I know that the rules aren't perfect representations of the fluff, but Space Marines don't have the same stats as 200 years old captains, so these ancient vets should get a bit more. Then, a few dumb things need to be fixed, no more Insanity on the dread, choose your buff for Possessed, Raptors need hit and run+cheaper, etc. Finally, reintroduce a few lost things from the Crusades (Older armor plastic sets, jetbikes? Things of that nature) and a few more Dark Mechanicum creations like Chaos robots.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

So you play Iron Warriors eh...

 

So you have all the basic gubbins... + some of the daemon engines (maybe not all) + Khorne cult units (at least some not all) + daemons (I would guess in limited amounts... unless we awake the chaos machine god once more from his slumber...) + traitor guard units + mutants + cultists + whatever fodder the lost and the damned have with them... You actually have access to most of the stuff...

 

It is the cult legions who don't get most of the stuff but it is easy to tell what they can have because it has Mark of Khorne or Mark of Tzeentch or whatever god you are doing next to it....

I would say that there are no cult troops, but belonging to a faction grants you marks that creates cult troops. For example:

 

Chaos Marines. Undivided get generic CSM's, and can buy Icons for them to make them PM's/Zerkers/1KSons (making them Elite choices would be better perhaps than cost.). Cults get their specialist troops for the price of Regular CSM's, but are limited by not having access to regular CSM's.

[Dammeron]

Just a product with some thought and passion behind it. I emphasise the latter in particular, since the current affair is so arid and clinical.

[Razrhaghul]

...actually the current dex wouldn't be all that bad if GW just use some point tweaking

 

i think icons were a neat idea and could be kept but would have to be drastically reduced the price as i rather take 3 extra marines than pay for IoN that might only last first round of shooting.

and if dreadclaws aren't an option then maybe allow squads to warp in via deepstrike like daemons/termies do.

 

but if dreadclaws were included, don't let them just be spiky just drop pods, as static units don't fit in the chaos' playstyle. instead, have them be Possessed vehicles, and once the deep strike squad has disembarked (may not re-embark) can at least move about the field (prob not skimmers) spitting havoc launcher or twin-linked reaper AC shells, or maybe S6 power weapons (not dread ccw)...like a cheap un-insane dreadnought. that way you can have weaker deep striking sane dreadnought or stick with the slightly tougher/stronger crazy ones.

 

chaos spawn need fixed/cheaper or just dropped.

...maybe allow for infiltrating cultists in the FA slot

 

cheaper bikes

 

variety in daemon princes ala CSM 3.5

 

 

generic daemons + points for marks= aligned daemons

...same w/ greater daemons

 

limit daemon princes to 0-1

 

lord could become interesting in that they pay for either marks of chaos or legion icons

marks would behave as they do, but legion marks could then affect force org/unit choices

 

pick-a-mutation possessed

1k sons either have a wraith-sight solution or give a asp sorc is included in basic squad cost

 

cult termies?

[Cornelias]

1. better dreadnought rules ( such amazing forgeworld models that aren't worth buying due to crappy rules).

 

2. a save negating weapon for Fabius Bile.

 

3. new special characters.

 

4. more possible army builds by vast changes in elites and fast attack units.

 

5. bring back plague bearers, horrors, daemonettes and bloodletters using Codex:Daemons rules but don't allow any other daemons and have them enter from a warp rift created by a sorc.

 

6. daemon engines!

 

7. cult units given rules similar to those in the new DE dex where they gain abilities from there patron god when certain prerequisites are met and put back into elites unless a Cult SC is used to make them troops.

 

8. sorcs to roll an addition dice at physic test/hood test etc. and pick best result, gain ability to summon a greater demon for a points cost and sacrifice of any model on the board or one within a certain range of the summoner.

 

9. some type of fast deployment either drop pod or flyer, not fused.

 

10. chosen given gifts from there patron god, possibles? tzeentch: inferno bolts, khorne: blood axes, nurgle: nurgles rot, slaanesh: rending ccw/mutations, undivided:reroll either CC attacks or shooting attacks ( pick one) per turn?

 

11. possessed removed as a unit and turned into single model upgrade/add-on to other units kinda like mark of the wolfen but with options for patron gods.

 

12. new khai gun options for champs.

 

 

adding all/some/a few of the above would go a long way to making me return to playing chaos again.

[firestorm40k]

I'd like to see, above all, characters that add army-wide or unit specific special abilities, like every other army since the Chaos 'dex was done.

 

E.G. I'e just read 'Soul Hunter', so why not do Talos? Standard Lord with Power Weapon (plus 4+ inv), but basically gives the unit he joins the ability to deploy ANYWHERE on the board (because they are the masters of stealth), and makes it so the first turn of the battle is played using Night Fight rules - but Night Lords treat it as normal :wub: Oh yeah, and to reflect them causing terror amongst the enemy before the battle has even started, you choose one of your opponents units, and roll off - when he deploys you either get to move them 2d6", or they start the game pinned (or something along those lines). That would be completely in keeping with the fluff of the Night Lords, and would also give any army fielding them a very unique style of play.

 

THAT'S how HQ options should boost an army, and that is the sort of thing I'd like to see in the new 'dex.

 

Apart from sorting out the prices of some units, giving Raptors back Hit & Run, and the obvious stuff like making Possessed a unit worth taking, that's the biggest thing for me.

[Lexington]

Adherence to established fluff, not senseless retcon bs as in the current one.

What retcons in the current book? The structure changed, and the background focus went from Legions to the bland and lifeless Renegades, but the background itself hasn't changed much. The biggest changes I noticed had to do implementing the changes to the Horus Heresy brought about by the novels.

 

the ability to field all Legion warbands...

...what in the current Codex prevents this?

[maverike_prime]

the ability to field all Legion warbands...

...what in the current Codex prevents this?

 

Nothing. But by the same point nothing is given for painting your CSMs Boltgun metal and calling them Iron Warriors either. I've posted several CSM army lists in the last year and I've gotten the same complaint on every one of them: If the HQ doesn't have wings, don't take it. That's my biggest complaint with the current CSM codex, their's no reason to explore varient armies in it. You're not building a Night Lords Army, you're just building a Chaos Space Marine army that happens to have regal blue armor and lightning bolts on it.

 

Like I said in my OP, I'm not against the current Codex and I think they did a lot of things right with it. I just think the Codex is due for an update and I'd like see some improvements on what's there now while we get back some of what we had before. Imagine if in the next Space Marine Codex you have Rules for playing Ultra-Marines, and then you have rules for playing non-ultras. Not rules to play Salamanders or White scars, just non-ultramarines. Limiting the likes of the Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, and Crimson fists to be nothing more then names and colors. Do you think the Space Marine players would like that? How about if they lost the Chaplin and only had an option of decking out a Company Captain and calling him a Chaplin?

 

As a CSM player, I went from having 5 different options for my HQ to having 3 and one of them is basically a joke anyway. Now I can give my lord +1 attack, or +1 toughness, or +1 Initiative, or +1 to his Invulnerable Save. If I give him a Juggernaut I give him +1 A and +1 S, but that's it. Now I've got a bigger lord, with 6 attacks that's still slogging it on foot. If I give him a Bike, he becomes a moderately better Aspiring Champion that costs too much. If I give him a Jump pack the only other unit he can join is a Raptor squad (Yeah like thats going to happen). If I perch him on a Disk of Tzeentch he'll have a 5+ invulnerable save and 5 attacks, and once again he can't be screened because the only unit he can join is Raptors. If I stick him on a Nurgle mount he gets +1 wound and +1 attack, but can't be carried in a rhino and only transported in a Land Raider (But he can't join the unit of Berzerkers that's in that Raider, so why bother?). So why should I take a lord? When for 20 points more I get +1 WS, +2 S, +1 T, +1 W,+1 A, and Monstrous creature status? He hits harder, does more damage, and is more survivable, and I can take two of them. It's not like the Lord gives any benifit to any squad he joins, and he looses one of his unless he joins a similarly marked Cult unit (Khorne lord with Khorne berzerkers, ect).

 

The Sorcerer is even worse. Costing more points for a less capable unit. Sure I can give him up to 3 Psychic powers, for a minimum cost of 25 points more then the Daemon Prince and 35 more then the lord, but what would he take? Bolt of Change, Winds of Chaos and Doom bolt? Yeah grand. So now I've got a 200 point HQ that can use his magical flammer, or possible take 3 members of an enemy squad (or one characters if he fails all of his saves), or try and pop a single tank. Even in it's most basic form, a Daemon Prince is better in all three situations. Sure I could give him Terminator Armor and Warp Time, but why? He's too expensive to run into combat solo, and he looses the main benifit of the Terminator armor if he joined any other unit besides a Terminator unit, so it's not worth trying to stick him in a squad of CSMs.

 

So my one viable HQ unit is a Daemon prince. Thanks. Why did GW actually bother putting the Lord and Sorcerer in the codex?

 

The Chaos Terminators are nice, but I would like to be able to field Rubric Terminators or Berzerker Termies.

 

The Dreadnought... yeah. you have a 2 in 3 chance of it doing what you want it to do. If it's too close to your own forces, you risk it attacking your own troops. So the best way to address that is to keep it closer to the enemy and further away from your own troops. Yeah, I really want to throw a 100 point model at the enemy with out support. It should be fun.

 

The Possessed have some utterly fantastic models, I doubt anyone will argue with me on that point. But they're random. I'm not really interested in fielding a 130 point unit if I can't count on it to do what I want it to do.

 

The CSM are pretty decent the way they are. I can't complain about them as they stand.

 

Some of the cult troops could use some tweaking. The Plague marines are great for holding objective, so long as they get charged by a unit with High Initiative. Why does anyone take Noise marines? I really don't understand their benifit is. They have +1I , but their special weapon sucks and their heavy weapon is a more expensive missile launcher. Why do you take them?

 

Bikers... well yeah. I think they'd be better if they had Attack bike options.

 

Raptors.... I think enough's been said on them.

 

Spawn, why take them? I mean unless you just want to toss 40 points on the table for no other reason then to say it's worth 40 points.

 

The Land Raider: Frankly I don't want the CSMs to have theCrusader or Redeemer. Those are both much more recent developments in the Land Raider design and frankly, with as much reverence as the Tech Marines place on their vechicles, I can see Techmarines leading a 'holt crusade' to rescue a 'captured Land raider' if it's crew decided to go Rogue. So I find it unlikely that CSMs would be able to keep anything like that. Now, that being said I do not see why the Forces of Chaos can't have other variants of the Land Raider. Perhaps one that mounts T.linked Heavy bolter sponsons with a pair of Reaper autoguns on the hull perhaps? Toss a Havoc launcher on it and you got yourself a mean machine that's going to hurt massed infantry even before it hits the front line. Just a thought off the top of my head.

 

I'm not saying I dislike the Current codex, just interested in seeing what other people would like to see in the next rendition of the codex.

 

I do have to say that I am utterly and totally against the 3+ Codex ideas. I think spliting Daemons off from CSMs was a bad idea and became a poorly executed idea after wards. I think exacerbating the problem by making a Codex: Chaos Legions and a Codex: Renagade Marines, in addition to the current Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Codex: Daemons of Chaos would for ever ruin chaos players of all players in 40k. Like wise, I'm not interested in having one giant tome of Chaos book for $75 either. I think that would bring back the problems of the 3.5 codex ten fold.

[the jeske]

What retcons in the current book? The structure changed, and the background focus went from Legions to the bland and lifeless Renegades, but the background itself hasn't changed much. The biggest changes I noticed had to do implementing the changes to the Horus Heresy brought about by the novels.

happy chaos family ?different legions working at warband level or even squad level . the DT finding "khorn lord leading an army of 1ksons" very cool. Lack of any new legion fluff , cuting of the old fluff which was in 3.5 makes everything that was not reprinted not core fluff anymore.

..what in the current Codex prevents this?

lack of rules , lack of options to pick from [in case of some armies like the EC it was brutal how much cash went down the drain ] . unless legions does equal the way you paint your models , then yeah nothing stops us from playing legions X,Y,Z .

and those legions that can build lists , if they wont to stay fluffy are limited to LR rush builds , because hey there are no WE or 1ksons oblits .

[Chengar Qordath]

Honestly, I have to say some of the insanely complicated unlocking schemes people are proposing just seem absolutely ridiculous. I don't think there's any other codex currently in use that even comes close to approaching the level of complexity some people want for the new codex.

 

Personally, I'd like to see all the existing units brought into balance with each other, some new units added that allow people to add an appropriate Legion feel to whatever army they're playing. In essence, make a codex where you can easily construct a fluff-accurate list for any of the major legions that will be just about as balanced as any "cheese" list someone might put together. The idea that certain options should be cut out just because the current codex makes them too good is bizarre to say the least; since DPs are overpowered they should be balanced better, not excised from the codex or restricted with archaic rules that no other modern codex uses.

 

Adding proper Daemons back into the codex would be nice too, since the generic ones manage to be both bland and useless. Also, bring back the cultists since cannon fodder is always useful, ideally with a few fun rules to encourage treating them as utterly expendable.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I've seen nothing proposed thus far that trumps the complexity of the 3.5 Codex, and the only people that were afraid of that Codex's complexity were the people that didn't play that Codex.

[Spacefrisian]

And here i though i 've put down some pretty complex stuff in 1 of my posts. Although be it in a shorter form.

[d@n]

1, chaos lord needs more options and eternal warrior to make him worth taking over the demon prince.

2. chosen need to be a scoring unit.

3, possessed need to be able to choose there abilitys

4. terminaters need to be fearless and either have a long range weapon or a dread claw

5. deadnoughts need a dread claw or fleet or both or just some way to get them into combat before thay kill there own side

6. noise marines need to to have there sonic blasters as standard or to be chaper

7. bezerkers need someway to bust open tanks from range

8. 1000 sons need a powerfist or/and melta gun

9. csm need fearless or to be a few points cheaper

10. rapters need to be cheaper or have hit and run

11. bikers need to be cheaper or have hit and run

12. spawns need to be cheaper and faster

13. defiler needs front armour 13

14. land raider needs to be the equivalent of the loyalists

 

just of the top of my head. infact just keep the demon prince plague marines and oblits the same and re do everything else .Also a character that allows you to make an oblotorater cult (he would be an iron warrior) and a character that allows you to make a rapter cult (he would be say a night lord) oh and what everyone one wans including people who dont play chaos LEGION SPECIFIC RULES!!!

[Rik Riorik]

This incessant need to have Special Characters in every force is annoying. I don't understand why it has become the field of Special Characters that you chose them in order to open up new options on how to make your army? Surely if it is possible to factor something like that into the points cost for a Special Character then why not just add it as a points cost for a normal Chaos Lord?

 

The whole "counts as"-Hammer is a bit annoying as well. How about things being what they actually are?

[Hellios]

This incessant need to have Special Characters in every force is annoying. I don't understand why it has become the field of Special Characters that you chose them in order to open up new options on how to make your army? Surely if it is possible to factor something like that into the points cost for a Special Character then why not just add it as a points cost for a normal Chaos Lord?

 

The whole "counts as"-Hammer is a bit annoying as well. How about things being what they actually are?

 

Agreed... I was never against people using special characters... not now it seems to be the standard HQs that are special and me thinking Vulcan must be tired I've just fought him as he was helping then Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists and now here he is finally back with the salamanders to help...

 

What I don't want is an Iron Warriors special character that unlocks Iron Warrior traits... what I wouldn't mind is an upgrade for a lord called... Warsmith... that unlocks those traits...

 

Bring back interesting 40k wooo people who couldn't understand the 3.5 dex have issues and should go play something like... hungry hippos... I'm not saying the 3.5 dex was perfect or had the best layout but the codex seemed pretty obvious to me and I didn't play Chaos during the 3.5 dex... I loved playing against it however... What I would give to play against 'broken' Iron warriors lists now...

[Brother Nihm]

Forgot something, give Chaos Terminators Relentless.

[TheDarkApostle]

I want Cultists/Traitors/Mutants so I can remake my Lost and the Damned list.

 

TDA

[Cornelias]

Bikers... well yeah. I think they'd be better if they had Attack bike options.

 

 

dreaming about reaper autocannon attack bikes not to mention the awesome possibilities for modeling chaos "mad max" bike and side car :)

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I've seen nothing proposed thus far that trumps the complexity of the 3.5 Codex, and the only people that were afraid of that Codex's complexity were the people that didn't play that Codex.

It wasn't that complex, there was just a lot of options with unusual restrictions.

 

dreaming about reaper autocannon attack bikes not to mention the awesome possibilities for modeling chaos "mad max" bike and side car :tu:

Be right back, need to change my pants after that mental image.

[chaplain belisarius]

wasnt that the infamous pete haines dex? i liked that dex...something like that but a bit less extreme would be ace!

 

If we got to keep bp, bolter and ccw too that would be nice..

 

lose the icons and go back to marks of chaos...it made much more sense!

 

DP and oblits should be 0-1 choices too...it doesnt feel right spamming them (but we need to make other stuff worth taking too, i think the troops section is ok in the current dex...)

 

the ability to do a themed army again...