What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[subtlebrush]

I do miss the sacred numbers rule. A free aspiring champ if you match the squad size to the gods sacred number (Slaanesh:6, Nurgle:7, Khorne:8 and Tzeentch=9) not as crazy as giving them free heavy weapons *cough* Codex: SM *cough*

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

What about a combi weapon? Combi Melta-Pistol/Hand-Flamer, giving a one off punch. You could imagine the 'special weapon' marines breaching the defenses, before they join in on the blood lust, their special weapons now ignored as they close in for the kill.

Hmmmm... That's not bad. Maybe make them similar to the Death Company and give them Relentless as well? Perhaps... If you made them more expensive, yes, it could work. Give them the option to take an additional (not trade out, mind you) combi-bolter for about 15-20 points each and automatically gain Relentless. They'll be powerful, but it'll need to be balanced by making the squad 125 points from the start, like Vanguard. The thing that will set them apart is that there won't be a lot of melee weapon options, as a roaring chainaxe is enough for any Khorne Berzerker :tu:

[Kevlarshark]

Hmmmm... That's not bad. Maybe make them similar to the Death Company and give them Relentless as well? Perhaps... If you made them more expensive, yes, it could work. Give them the option to take an additional (not trade out, mind you) combi-bolter for about 15-20 points each and automatically gain Relentless.

 

What we really want is just the 'combi' bit of the combi weapon...similar to the exterminator packs in Necromunda... maybe allow it to be attached on the chain axe or bolt pistol for just a bit of burning ;) .

 

 

On the relentless bit...

Bezerkers used to be able to be armed with the bolter/CCW combination and nobody used it because they still had 'Blood Rage' disallowing their shooting most times...with the non raging, only bolt pistol, bezerkers this isnt a problem. I could be wrong but if you fire the 'assault bit' of a combi it should 'count as' an assault weapon so 'relentless' should not be necessary?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Hmmmm... That's not bad. Maybe make them similar to the Death Company and give them Relentless as well? Perhaps... If you made them more expensive, yes, it could work. Give them the option to take an additional (not trade out, mind you) combi-bolter for about 15-20 points each and automatically gain Relentless.

 

What we really want is just the 'combi' bit of the combi weapon...similar to the exterminator packs in Necromunda... maybe allow it to be attached on the chain axe or bolt pistol for just a bit of burning :D .

 

 

On the relentless bit...

Bezerkers used to be able to be armed with the bolter/CCW combination and nobody used it because they still had 'Blood Rage' disallowing their shooting most times...with the non raging, only bolt pistol, bezerkers this isnt a problem. I could be wrong but if you fire the 'assault bit' of a combi it should 'count as' an assault weapon so 'relentless' should not be necessary?

 

Might come in handy for combi-plas if you opt to give them that as a choice.

[Kevlarshark]

Well they already have plasma pistols as an option...

[bap2703]

And we all know how good it is...

[the jeske]

[looks at zerker with special]....[looks at csm with mark of khorn]..... yeah zerkers totaly need special weapons to makes us play fewer zerker/pm/oblit/Dp builds.

[Kevlarshark]

looks at zerker with special]....[looks at csm with mark of khorn]..... yeah zerkers totaly need special weapons to makes us play fewer zerker/pm/oblit/Dp builds.

 

I see your point...I personally wouldn't mind if the Cult troops were moved to Elite except when the army is led by an IC with the same mark.

 

I wasnt trying to suggest that 'zerkers wre weak or needed a buff, just that it would be nice if they could use some fire based weapons since one of their battle crys is

"KILL! MAIM! BURN!" and they have non ability to burn in any way.

 

However.....

 

After having a look at codex BA and Space Wolves their are several units which are "similar" to bezerkers which not only have access to special weapons, special close

combat weapons and jump packs but are all cheaper and/or more points effective than the Bezerkers. To top this off we CCSM players consider bezerkers to be one

of the more effective units in the codex!

 

I always felt that you should have to select something like a Dark Techmarine to 'unlock' oblits, defilers and dreds or increase them from 0-1.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I always felt that you should have to select something like a Dark Techmarine to 'unlock' oblits, defilers and dreds or increase them from 0-1.

GAH! TECH TREES!

 

I get enough of the whole "unlocking" idea in my daily videogaming thanks. Though the whole "Dreads/Oblits/Defilers as HS and Elites if Techmarine is taken" does appeal.

[the jeske]

I see your point...I personally wouldn't mind if the Cult troops were moved to Elite except when the army is led by an IC with the same mark.

and of course its not like people wouldnt play with a nurgle and khorn DP in the same army to get pms and zerkers with special weapons [+oblits].

[Minsc]

I see your point...I personally wouldn't mind if the Cult troops were moved to Elite except when the army is led by an IC with the same mark.

 

Yay for having a IC with MoCU then - Codex CSM - The only codex to only have one troopchoice. :huh:

[Hellios]

I see your point...I personally wouldn't mind if the Cult troops were moved to Elite except when the army is led by an IC with the same mark.

 

Yay for having a IC with MoCU then - Codex CSM - The only codex to only have one troopchoice. :huh:

 

We have lesser daemons ^^ and they could add something new... Oh also Dark Angels only have tactical squads unless you take special characters... oh and Necrons only have warriors.

[Lord_Starscream]

I see your point...I personally wouldn't mind if the Cult troops were moved to Elite except when the army is led by an IC with the same mark.

 

Yay for having a IC with MoCU then - Codex CSM - The only codex to only have one troopchoice. :huh:

 

They could add Cultists.

[Kevlarshark]

and of course its not like people wouldnt play with a nurgle and khorn DP in the same army to get pms and zerkers with special weapons [+oblits].

Pretty sure you can only have one Model designated as Your commander, no matter how many Hero/Lord models you select...even so not a hard problem to fix.

 

Yay for having a IC with MoCU then - Codex CSM - The only codex to only have one troopchoice.

 

 

They could add Cultists.

 

I would also love to see a cultist/renegade guard type choice in the codex but perhaps the MOCU Lord could allow Chosen to be a troops choice

(there are CSM characters which do similar things) This might make Chosen a bit more useful too.

[Warsmith Aznable]

They could add Cultists.

 

I would like to so see some Cultists, something like 1-19 cheap troops lead by either an Aspiring Sorcerer or some other type of Chaos priest thing. Options to have either a couple heavy weapons or assault weapons, or maybe make the squad choose a Mark and have the load-out tied to that. Maybe even give them some kind of crazy daemon weapon they can take, like a Hell Cannon or summat.

 

I'm currently using Summoned Lesser Daemons that are modeled with WHFB Flagellants for "Cultists of Khorne", which is OK, but not exactly what I had in mind when I first started my army.

[Lord_Starscream]

I`ll do a very detailed post tonight when I get home from work for what I`d like to see, not that GW would give a flying crap.

 

But I`d like it if Cultists were really just totally crap fodder. Make them start with just a single CCW, and give them options to upgrade to Autoguns, or add a second CCW. Make their WS and BS terrible, 2 or 3, make their S and T 3, make their I 2, make them able to be given marks of chaos. Make their only good stat be Leadership, and thats only if they have a champion or some kind of priest fanatic to lead them. Just make them a cheap, terrible unit that you throw into enemy lines with little heed for their safety. Hell, steal something from DoW II and upgrade a certain number per squad to be suicide bombers :). Make it a 10-30 man unit, with for every 10 you can buy one suicide bomber who creates a 3 inch AoE.

 

Mark of Chaos Undivided making Chosen troops would be awesome as well. I`ve always wanted to make a full chosen army.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

[looks at zerker with special]....[looks at csm with mark of khorn]..... yeah zerkers totaly need special weapons to makes us play fewer zerker/pm/oblit/Dp builds.

That's mostly what I'm afraid of, which is why I want to up their point's cost - well, make their base point cost about 150, now that I think about it more, and give them 4 Berzerkers and a Skull Sergeant for that, like they have it in C:SM - and have it 25 points per model from there.

 

That fair enough point cost?

 

Also - for the burn bit, why not let them take combis, but only combi- meltas and flamers, plasma being seen as too clean of a weapon? Or Change it to 'gets hot!' on a 1 or 2, so that it isn't spammed?

[Lord_Starscream]

Well, where to begin on how I wish they would change things, or add what I want?

 

We must first begin with Renegades and Legionaries. I must say, where I live, Chaos Space Marines have literally disappeared. I play in several cities in the surrounding area, and I can say that no one decided "Hey cool, I can play Chaos Renegades. A bunch of whining incompetents who no one likes... even Chaos Space Marine Players!". It was a design attempt, and one that failed. Yes, I will say Renegade Space Marines failed. I started playing Chaos Space Marines in the 3rd edition area, between the 3.0 and the 3.5 Codex, and I started playing because of a White Dwarf Chapter Approved list for Word Bearers. Most of my friends started for the same reasons, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, ect...

 

Its COOL to play the armies of the Grand Crusade, its cool to play 10,000 year old elite warriors. This draws people to the book, it draws people to the army. Even if the rules aren't the best, that key element is essential to the next book. You can of course still play renegades (I just don't know many who would), or a fraction of a Legion which has become its own thing. A codex will cover those, but covering Legions is essential to the success of any future title. Its just what is.

 

Now, for the actual rules and choices.

 

I hope Marks are given more depth, a Mark of Khorne for a Chaos Lord, should not be the same as a Mark of Khorne for say... a cultist. I would like it if marks did specific things for the unit choices they were associated with. A sad note Chaos Icons unfortunately are here to stay, the molds are made, and I doubt GW will change it.

 

I'd like it if the Marks on the Chaos Lord/Daemon Prince changed what your troops were. To go with that I'd like it if Daemon Princes and Chaos Lords kinda got rolled back together into a single choice, and went back to being 0-1. This would mean that if you wanna go Mark of Nurgle, you get the benefits of that + Undivided, but you can't just take a second Lord/Prince and get the benefits of another. Also, really, one Chaos Lord / Prince should really only run the show. The way Wargear is done now I think this is much more viable than when the old Armoury system was around.

 

Mark of Nurgle: Makes Plagues and Bearers troops.

Mark of Khorne: Makes Bloodletters and Berserkers troops

Mark of Tzeentch: Makes Rubic Marines and Horrors/Flamers troops

Mark of Slaanesh: Noise Marines and Daemonettes.

Mark of Undivided: Chosen become troops.

 

Sorcerer, just give him new wargear and powers. Stats are fine.

 

Chaos Lieutenant. Now I think a very significant change to the Lieut is based firstly off how Wargear is done in 5th ed. He should have less choices than the Lord, less variety, but not have a points cap, just as no characters do now. *however*, one thing I think Codex Dark Eldar did right, was making regular Haemonculi 0-3 for a single choice. I think the Lieuts should be the same. Make them WS5 BS5, but instead of just one, make it 0-3 Lieuts.

 

 

Troops? I already mentioned the addition of cultists.

 

Also, adding options for Chaos Space Marines would be nice.

 

For Elites? Cult troops and basic demons of each type should be in the Elites, along with Chosen. And along with Terminators of course, and Nators should get options to become cult troopers.

 

Chosen should be much more like Space Wolf Guard in terms of their equipment loadout, maybe add options to purchase other abilities like before. Berserkers should be like they are now, with some small buffs or points reduction, same for most cult troops. Noise Marines and Rubic Marines are the ones who really need the overhall.

 

Fast Attack: Have like... fast attack. As opposed to now, really having you know, none. I can't think of much sadly for this choice. Raptors getting a major boost?

 

Heavy Support: For the most part, outside of marks, this section is alright. Unit tweaking is in order, perhaps giving Chaos variants to Land Raiders that are Chaos Only, but for the most part this section isn't *terrible*.

 

Special Characters/ Special Wargear:

 

To make Armies different factions, Wargear for Lords/Princes for dedicated Legions, or Characters themselves should be added. So, either a Dark Apostle or say... Erebus (even though he's a dick) get added.

 

Alpha Legion: Cultists and CSM gain Infiltrate. Count as Undivided Legion

 

Word Bearers: Daemons of all marks may be taken as Troops choices instead of Elites. Counts as Undivided Legion. May NOT take Cult troops or non-undivided Marks.

 

Night Lords: Not Sure. Undivided Legion. May take Raptors as troops?

 

Iron Warriors: Undivided Legion, gain stubborn USR.

 

World Eaters: Eat planets, auto win... j/k. Khorne Legion, MoK only, some benefit to offset disadvantage?

 

Thousand Sons: Same as above.

 

Emperor's Children: Same as Above

 

Death Guard: Same as above.

 

Thats all I got ftm really.

[Sangneur]

I think that Cult troops and marked troops should be represented as different in the rules, they aren't just the same. A marked troop reaches where he is through (bloody) worship and advances through his faith in that manner, whereas a cult troop undergoes a physical change to bring him closer to his god. Berserkers achieve this through surgery, Plague marines through infestation, noise marines through physical alteration, finally, Rubric marines become puppets and sorcerers puppeteers.

 

Over all, I think that having a mark of a dark god should not unlock a troop type, being from a legion should. By the time a marine gathers enough favour to be a cult marine, he's probably a champion or chosen.

[Kevlarshark]

I think that Cult troops and marked troops should be represented as different in the rules, they aren't just the same. A marked troop reaches where he is through (bloody) worship and advances through his faith in that manner, whereas a cult troop undergoes a physical change to bring him closer to his god. Berserkers achieve this through surgery, Plague marines through infestation, noise marines through physical alteration, finally, Rubric marines become puppets and sorcerers puppeteers.

 

Over all, I think that having a mark of a dark god should not unlock a troop type, being from a legion should. By the time a marine gathers enough favour to be a cult marine, he's probably a champion or chosen.

 

Remember Chaos is the quick and tempting path to power its not always earned, but always comes with a price.

 

You seem to be implying that Marked and Cult are two paths to the same goal, one through physical alteration and the other through worship. I view them as more of a progression you would start as

a marked troop worshipping your chosen god and then progress to a cult as a natural progression.... doing increasingly extreme things in worship of the god (like drug addicts needing larger doses to get high).

 

 

Our current codex seems to have split marks into "Lesser" (normal marked marines) and "Greater" (the Cult troops).

This created some problems like terminators, chosen and Independent Characters (who dont get the 'greater mark') lacking skills that are available to their rank and file. People have made many 'fluff' reasons as to why this is so but... my elite terminators or chosen should not be weaker in any way than the troop choice cult troops.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I see your point...I personally wouldn't mind if the Cult troops were moved to Elite except when the army is led by an IC with the same mark.

 

Yay for having a IC with MoCU then - Codex CSM - The only codex to only have one troopchoice. :)

 

Necrons say hello. At least CSM would have options.

[the jeske]

so we would be "only" a bit better then the necron dex which since it came out had one build for 1-1,5-2k pts . I dont think that getting less we have now is a good idea for a codex [or having a bigger number of chaos players].

 

+ as I said before people would just play with 2 HQ one nurgle one khorn and more and then [specialy if the flamers/melta for zerkers would have happened] we would actualy have one troops choice less. because no man would play csm .

right now people may say that csm arent so bad , that they have more shots/Attacks then pms and unlike zerkers have specials . with that gone it would be BL all over again for all of us.

[Kevlarshark]

+ as I said before people would just play with 2 HQ one nurgle one khorn and more and then [specialy if the flamers/melta for zerkers would have happened] we would actualy have one troops choice less. because no man would play csm .

right now people may say that csm arent so bad , that they have more shots/Attacks then pms and unlike zerkers have specials . with that gone it would be BL all over again for all of us.

 

So We bring back "there can only be one" (which would work a bit like in CSM where the army must choose which chapter tactics they use)...the problem you describe is not unfixable...

 

...Or possibly even a real problem - I quite like the way this would work now at least if you wanted to fill your troops with Bezerkers and PMs you have to take an appropriate HQ unit to do it. Its a small discouragment maybe 100 points, but I do accept we would have to do something to encourage alternative builds too...

 

...so

 

I think CSM are too expensive points wise at the moment...gaining an extra CCW is no substitute to ATSKNF and combat/chapter tactics... they either need a points drop to something around 12/13 or a special rule akin to 'diehards' (possibly stubborn if army is led by an undivided lord?) so they could always attempt to regroup even when below half strength...I dont mind our special weapons being a bit more expensive (to represent the relative rareity of them) if we get a break elswhere...

[Rik Riorik]

Unlike many I don't want to see the return of marked actual Daemons being quite content to have unspecified and "weaker" Daemons at my disposal. I would however like to see the points cost better reflect what they can do and in what army it is they are doing it.

 

As it stands a Lesser Daemon is basically just a Chaos Marine, but with no ranged ability, no grenades, a 5+ invulnerable save which basically equates to a relatively weak cover save instead of a 3+ armour save no options to chose additional gear, they have to be kept in reserve and can not necessarily be counted on to arrive and yet they clock in at 13 points. Shaving a couple of points off of their cost wouldn't be amiss or giving them some sort of options.

 

As it is there is no great clamour for including a Lesser Daemon over a standard Chaos Marine.

[Kevlarshark]

As it is there is no great clamour for including a Lesser Daemon over a standard Chaos Marine.

 

Indeed I would often prefer guardsmen to lesser Daemons...cut em down to 10 points and give them the option of marks.