What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[Sangneur]

I think that Cult troops and marked troops should be represented as different in the rules, they aren't just the same. A marked troop reaches where he is through (bloody) worship and advances through his faith in that manner, whereas a cult troop undergoes a physical change to bring him closer to his god. Berserkers achieve this through surgery, Plague marines through infestation, noise marines through physical alteration, finally, Rubric marines become puppets and sorcerers puppeteers.

 

Over all, I think that having a mark of a dark god should not unlock a troop type, being from a legion should. By the time a marine gathers enough favour to be a cult marine, he's probably a champion or chosen.

 

Remember Chaos is the quick and tempting path to power its not always earned, but always comes with a price.

 

You seem to be implying that Marked and Cult are two paths to the same goal, one through physical alteration and the other through worship. I view them as more of a progression you would start as

a marked troop worshipping your chosen god and then progress to a cult as a natural progression.... doing increasingly extreme things in worship of the god (like drug addicts needing larger doses to get high).

 

 

Our current codex seems to have split marks into "Lesser" (normal marked marines) and "Greater" (the Cult troops).

This created some problems like terminators, chosen and Independent Characters (who dont get the 'greater mark') lacking skills that are available to their rank and file. People have made many 'fluff' reasons as to why this is so but... my elite terminators or chosen should not be weaker in any way than the troop choice cult troops.

 

Ah, I'd have to agree with that.

 

Unfortunately I've failed to convey my point, I see that I did not choose my words accurately enough.

 

What I meant was that becoming a cult troop merits a strength of mark stronger than should be possible at lineman level. But Chosen should have a mark about as potent as a cult troop. At the level of a lord I'd like them to have an even more potent mark. The are "Chosen" after all!

 

I definitely agree that having chosen without marks as potent as cult troops prompts much sad trombone.

[Alphz]

I'd like to see some differentiation from the loyalists codeci. Too long have we been evil spikey marines.

 

CSM troops should stay as is, but be a lil more flexible in special weapons - one every four or five marines or something and one heavy every 8 marines. Use odd numbers to show the ramshackle appearance of a legion.

 

Axe lessers and bring in cultists. Make them similar to Gaurdsmen whiteshields or something but with an option for close combat weapons and an aspiring champion.

 

Chosen - For fraks sake make these guys something interesting. I don't want sterngaurd with spikes or "veteran chaos marines". They are the chosen of the dark gods, the best of the chaos legions.

 

chosen should have different stats, Increase their WS or BS or both and A. Give them veteran skills (maybe) and let every. single. model. pick a special weapon. Give them some special rules to represent how damn ridiculously elite they are. Do the same with Terminators, only the best chaos marine gets this armour. Increase the points to represent the rarity. I'm tempted to say veteran skills but I'm not entirely sold on the idea.

 

Raptors and possessed should fill niches of the army, possesed can be the fast hard hitters, while raptors should once again gain leadership modifiers and special wargear which assist in the hit and run sort of tactics.

 

Get rid of bikers and introduce daemonic cavalry or some sort. But for goodness sake make sure they're fast and tough but do interesting things depending on the god allegiance maybe? Otherwise make bikers interesting and different from the space marine equivalents.

 

Chaos lords should be a least a little customisable, not quite 3.5, but a wee armoury wouldnt hurt with a few choice daemonic gifts or gifts of the gods. Give them a special rule which represents how they have brought the army together. Leadership rerolls, regroup under 50, stubborn? but the army loses it when he dies.

 

Make sorcers actually useful and good. They should have a built in modifier to enemy psykers and be able to purchase gifts which further disrupt and choose between those or more psychic powers: make the psychic powers varied and interesting.

 

Update the landraider to carry more fellas, give it some sort of infernal device again (doesn't need to be like PoTMS) which ignores crew stunned or allows it a limited move while stunned.

 

Basically, I'd just like to see some deviation from spikey space marines. But giving us interesting gameplay. I would also like to see a return to smaller elite forces as chaos is driven by survival of the fittest. so elite units should be more expensive but more effective/flexible.

[Kevlarshark]

Agreed with nearly all points...

 

You may have gone over the top with the chosen upgrades :o

 

Not sure if bikers should be scrapped, merely made useful again. When we could still daemon bomb, there was seldom a list without bikers, but that was as broken as Blood Angels.

 

I would like to see bikers have the option of purchasing outflank, and/or hit and run this (combined with marks) would make up for the lack of attack bikes.

 

Daemonic cav is a nice idea, but I really don't want is 'Chaos thunderwolves'

[Alys]

I would imagine bikers to be similar to the Dark Eldar hellions, where they go through a unit at top speed, their bikes ploughing through people, while the leader locks his sword into the holder on the handlebar, to further reap more havoc. Maybe their bikes would be more... angled, more sleek. The Sports bike, compared to the hog that the SMs use. Aerodynamic, sporting functional blades, maybe the front of the bike consists of holes that when it moves at speed, it creates this cacophony of screaming that causes panic in the opponents.

 

Cultists, although fluffy, would just be free kill points that even Tau could take apart in CC. Maybe if they are lead by an Aspiring Champion, you can buy an upgrade that gives them Feel No Pain, as they are so whipped into a killing fury, they don't even realise that they just lost an arm.

 

I know it's wrong to be all "oh the SM codex has this", but... there must be 'scouts' in Chaos, right? How do they recruit, and how long does the process take? I'd love the idea of marked scouts that are able to hide within cultist units, then pop out with poisoned blades.

[Sangneur]

I would imagine bikers to be similar to the Dark Eldar hellions, where they go through a unit at top speed, their bikes ploughing through people, while the leader locks his sword into the holder on the handlebar, to further reap more havoc. Maybe their bikes would be more... angled, more sleek. The Sports bike, compared to the hog that the SMs use. Aerodynamic, sporting functional blades, maybe the front of the bike consists of holes that when it moves at speed, it creates this cacophony of screaming that causes panic in the opponents.

 

Cultists, although fluffy, would just be free kill points that even Tau could take apart in CC. Maybe if they are lead by an Aspiring Champion, you can buy an upgrade that gives them Feel No Pain, as they are so whipped into a killing fury, they don't even realise that they just lost an arm.

 

I know it's wrong to be all "oh the SM codex has this", but... there must be 'scouts' in Chaos, right? How do they recruit, and how long does the process take? I'd love the idea of marked scouts that are able to hide within cultist units, then pop out with poisoned blades.

 

A couple of good points here. I wonder: what should be different about chaos bikers? Maybe they should have hit and run, or something represent how their bikers are the weapons they use in CC. Scouts on them would make sense too since they often act as a vanguard.

 

Also, either we should get scouts, or we get something that's an initiate in some form!

[Kevlarshark]

Also, either we should get scouts, or we get something that's an initiate in some form!

 

I would guite like a sort of entry which is customisable...something that has lasguns and flac armour but has the options of Infiltrate, CCWs, shotguns and carapace so that depending on what options you select (and how you model them) they could be Chaos scouts, cultists, or even rebel PDF.

[Panda_]

Assault Ramps on Rhino, I'd be happy.

 

Predators that can fire as if they were Fast Vehicules

[khurdur]

our codex must really be in a bad state in the current form of 40k for us to make threads like "what you want in the next codex CSM" and for it to go on and on....

[Emperors Immortals]

our codex must really be in a bad state in the current form of 40k for us to make threads like "what you want in the next codex CSM" and for it to go on and on....

 

 

Hatred is forever........

[maverike_prime]

our codex must really be in a bad state in the current form of 40k for us to make threads like "what you want in the next codex CSM" and for it to go on and on....

 

It's actually a combination of things. The single largest is the comparison between the 3.5 codex and the 4th Codex. I'm not saying 3.5 was holy writ or anything, but 3.5 provided a lot of options that were lost with the 4th edition codex. Then there's comparison to other codexs that have come out since then. Mounting your Lord on a Khorne Juggernaught gives him an extra attack and makes him move like calvary, but he doesn't count as calvary so he can't join a bike unit. But Space Wolves can take an entire unit of permanent Toughness 5 +1 Attack calvary.

 

I'm not one to normally cry foul on new-codex material but I have a hard time understanding how cyborg wolves can change the survival of the riding warrior, but a daemon wrought monster/engine can't.

 

There's also the lack of differences in viable army lists. Of all the armies in the 40k universe, I'm a firm believer that the Space Marines and the Chaos Marines should be the most diverse. If you look at the Space Marine armies there are literally dozens of of different armies. Dread-heavy armies, Artillery dependent armies, Fast moving outflanking armies, Deep Strike death bringer armies... And they're viable armies. They're not gimped concept armies.

 

The Chaos marines... not so much. You can't make a fast moving army that can compete with it's space marine counter part. All of 2 units in the entire army book have deep strike ability, and one of them is so expensive that most people won't risk them.

 

The entire fast attack section is a joke.

 

half of the Elites section is redunandant to the troops section. Of the 5 troop choices, the Slaneesh Noise marines are worthless, while the Thousand Sons are horribly expensive for what you get leaving you regular fud-fud CSMs, Berzerkers, and Plague marines. Berzerks are good for clearing troops but pretty crappy at holding objectives.

 

The HQ section is even worse then a joke. Everything the Lord or Sorcerer can do, the Daemon prince can do, for less. It's worthless putting a Lord with anything other then a cult unit because he looses his fearless and the Sorcerer is too expensive for everything he can do.

 

There is no way to make an artillery CSM list. The units simply aren't there. Closest you can do is 3 Vindicators. Not exactly artillery there.

 

Deep strike:... um yeah. Raptors can deep strike... but why bother? And then there's terminators. there's a nice 400 point target.

[the jeske]

Mounting your Lord on a Khorne Juggernaught gives him an extra attack and makes him move like calvary

actualy he moves like infantry his class is just changed to cavlary [so no going up stairs , no transport etc].

 

 

And then there's terminators. there's a nice 400 point target.

ok this part I dont understand . termis cost 115 pts not 400 . raptors cost more , but still not 400pts [maybe an 8 man unit with attached HQ , but hth units shouldnt deep strike].

 

our codex must really be in a bad state in the current form of 40k for us to make threads like "what you want in the next codex CSM" and for it to go on and on....

because there is nothing else to talk about . technicly we ended the chaos sm talk durning the chaos sm codex review . No matter if casual , tournament or even fluff player . No one will argue with the fact that DPs or oblits are our best [power , cost etc] units . That everything else that is not a csm , zerker or pm can try to work , but a lot of times it doesnt or gimps the list . We can talk about how we can build different builds for 1500 or 1750 or even 2-2.5k armies because there armies are pre made for us . We are a lot like necrons [which have the option of adding more destroyers , adding more warriors and that is more or less it] with the "small" difference that the necron codex is there to represent 1 army the necron and the chaos sm dex is for legions and renegades . It is a bit like puting BT/SW/DA/sm/BA in one dex and making vulkan builds the only ones that are playable .

[maverike_prime]

Mounting your Lord on a Khorne Juggernaught gives him an extra attack and makes him move like calvary

actualy he moves like infantry his class is just changed to cavlary [so no going up stairs , no transport etc].

 

Dah. That's right. I knew it was something screwy with calvary/non-calvary. Either way, the Khorne mount is pretty much pointless.

And then there's terminators. there's a nice 400 point target.

ok this part I dont understand . termis cost 115 pts not 400 . raptors cost more , but still not 400pts [maybe an 8 man unit with attached HQ , but hth units shouldnt deep strike].

 

I was being somewhat facetious with my remark. The only way I've seen people run Termis is as Termicide Combi-melta squads. Drop 'em in, pop a tank. Throw 'em away.

 

Sorry, 35 point, 1 shot melta guns are a bit too expensive for my preferences.

[the jeske]

Sorry, 35 point, 1 shot melta guns are a bit too expensive for my preferences.

it is less then a tank. cant be countered and with big termi bases you realy have to drop 9" away to not get 2d6" pen . we dont have other long range [and landing on top of something does count as long range] support units then oblits . they do work ok [thing is they never fit in to armies under 1750 , but that is a different story] for an army that has to dismount the opposing one [because otherwise all our perks like ultra grit , zerkers , DP etc dont work at all] even poping a 35 point rhino is a fair trade . As it pops a transport and draws away fire to termis for one turn .

[maverike_prime]

Sorry, 35 point, 1 shot melta guns are a bit too expensive for my preferences.

it is less then a tank. cant be countered and with big termi bases you realy have to drop 9" away to not get 2d6" pen . we dont have other long range [and landing on top of something does count as long range] support units then oblits . they do work ok [thing is they never fit in to armies under 1750 , but that is a different story] for an army that has to dismount the opposing one [because otherwise all our perks like ultra grit , zerkers , DP etc dont work at all] even poping a 35 point rhino is a fair trade . As it pops a transport and draws away fire to termis for one turn .

 

And every time I have used them in that fashion they have misses they're one-shot melta, sit there for the rest of the turn, and either get shot up by massed bolter fire, or caught flat footed by more attacks then I can survive (depends on the army I'm fighting)

 

Sure, 105 points to take out a 250 point land raider seems like a good trade off right up until it doesn't pay off and I had my opponent the victory point for my terminators.

 

I'm not going to tell anyone else how to run their army. But I am going to make note of what doesn't work for me. Termis with Combi-melts don't work for me. Problem is there's not much in the way of options to run them. They're not relentless so giving them a reaper is kinda a so-so option. Heavy Flamers just don't see a lot of action anymore. and the cost of tolling them up to be anything else really brings us back to the "Here, take 400 points" argument. 2+/5+ is nice, I'll grant that. But if they eat 20 bolter shots, chances are decent that you're going to fail 3 saves (or fairly good if I'm rolling the dice). the 2+/5+ doesn't seem so nice then. I've literally had this scenario play out, more then once.

 

I deep strike a group of 3 termis with Combi-meltas next to a Rhino. Fire at the Rhino: Miss. Miss. Miss. Squad in rhino jumps out and proceeds to unload into my termies while the Rhino does like wise. 12 hits, 8 successful saves. I just spent 105 points that failed to do anything save slow down a squad of marines.

 

I'm not saying I want the rules changed to garuntee that the Combi-melta terminators always work. I'm saying I want another viable option.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Problem is there's not much in the way of options to run them. They're not relentless so giving them a reaper is kinda a so-so option.

 

The Relentless USR says, "Relentless models can shoot with rapid fire and heavy weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous Movement Phase, and are also allowed to assault in the same turn they fire them." (page 76 of the BRB)

 

The Wargear entry for Terminator Armor in the C:CSM says, "Terminator Armor are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons." (page 86 of C:CSM)

 

Isn't that effectively the same thing?

[Xeonic]

Termicide is useful after the one melta shots, realistically it's a threat on your doorstep after they fire, a threat with 2+/5++ and power weapons(maybe a chainfist). Point being, they have value beyond their combi meltas. I personally would never suicide termies, so I won't field termies in the current chaos codex.

 

EDIT: It is sorta the same thing. Combis and TL bolters are rapid fire though so you miss out on single shots past 12".

 

 

To the OP question, here's my list for the next codex:

 

Flavor (needs moar alpha legion, night lords, other unique legion flavors!)

Fluff

Dreads that aren't insane, or have

Drop pods

A land Raider up to loyalist standards, to be filled with

Terminators (cult termies would be nice)

Rework of summoned daemons,

Icons in general,

Noise marines,

Thousand sons,

Possessed(woo, I got extra power weapons! Oh wait, that's scout.),

Raptor cult,

Biker rework

Cultists/traitor guard, preferably an entry that can be either

HQ rework in general including:

Psychic defense(don't we live in the warp?),

Psychic powers(seriously, lash?),

Daemon weapons(lol, I whacked myself in the head),

Daemonic steeds that work(juggernaut, hah),

Special Characters(moar like lucius the instant killed by a powerfist),

Daemon prince being buffed up and made more expensive(or 0-1. This is my prince, Moloch, destroyer of worlds, subjugator of Thrakkis Prime, Lord of the Infinite Host, slayer of the Avatar, Tyrant of Drachos, and this is his little brother Jerry)

I want kai gun back! (well ranged upgrades on HQs in general are rare)

 

Maybe more stuff needs to be fixed. Honestly small cost/wargear tweaks would fix most entries IMO, but those are my major gripes with the chaos 'dex, for a codex with loads of super fun characterful options, most of them are bad ones.

[the jeske]

Isn't that effectively the same thing?

nope . because they have the relentless rule.

to make another example our winged HQ move like jump troops , but it doesnt mean they are jump infantry . this is why they can ride in transport or get poped with jaws.

 

 

And every time I have used them in that fashion they have misses they're one-shot melta, sit there for the rest of the turn, and either get shot up by massed bolter fire, or caught flat footed by more attacks then I can survive (depends on the army I'm fighting

.

 

5 bolters wont kill them and if they get targeted by 10 this means less shots are going after our rhinos [specialy if those units had special/hvy weapons]. if it just those that it is a win [and we dont have any other extra target units for ~100 pts], if also does something a transport/tank it is a win/win . sure 3 melta in a non vulkan army are not a kill always , but it is still good enough [if 3 melta would suck people wouldnt run 2 in units and go with plasma that has more shots/range/better teq options etc].

 

They're not relentless so giving them a reaper is kinda a so-so option.

the reaper is a bad option because it costs twice as much as it should . it is not a 4 shot AC[and even those suck post the rending nerf] , nor a str 8 cyclon .

Heavy Flamers just don't see a lot of action anymore

they never did . short ranged weapons are cool in space hulk , not for units that are slogging or teleporting . If the unit is small you dont want it anywhere near your enemy [unless your doing a termicid but then you dont have a flamer] , if its big then you dont want to kill too many models and make them run/out of range.

 

But if they eat 20 bolter shots, chances are decent that you're going to fail 3 saves (or fairly good if I'm rolling the dice). the 2+/5+ doesn't seem so nice then. I've literally had this scenario play out, more then once.

2 GH or 2 tacticals taping a unit that already did its work , but also one which they cant leave at the back because it will have 9 str 4 power weapons on attack and will stay in hth for one phase . double win for chaos player.

 

Fire at the Rhino: Miss. Miss. Miss

based on something like this . we should never play chaos because we can neither run cheap twin linked auto canons on dreads or get re-rolls in form vulkan etc. even oblits would suck [at least at 24" they could use twin linked plas]. with bs 4 there should be one or more roll on what happens to the transport . Doesnt of course mean you have a 100% chance to blow up a tank[for that you need either 5 twink linked melta or 7 normal to go through cover/out of 6"range etc]

[Warsmith Aznable]

Isn't that effectively the same thing?

nope . because they have the relentless rule.

to make another example our winged HQ move like jump troops , but it doesnt mean they are jump infantry . this is why they can ride in transport or get poped with jaws.

 

I don't understand. Is the important thing whether they have the "Relentless" word in their entry, or whether they can mostly behave as if they do? What it's important to me is whether I can move, shoot, and then assault with a Reaper armed Terminator all in the same turn. Which the C:CSM says you can, so far as I understand it. I understand your point about wording for the winged HQ, but I don't see how that applies to the Relentless USR versus what Chaos Terminator armor allows you to do. What can a Relentless unit do that a Chaos Terminator can't do? What can a Chaos Terminator do that a Relentless unit not do?

 

What am I missing here?

[Xeonic]

EDIT: It is sorta the same thing. Combis and TL bolters are rapid fire though so you miss out on single shots past 12".

They don't count as stationary thus can never single fire their TL bolters or combi bolters on the move past 12".

[maverike_prime]

Problem is there's not much in the way of options to run them. They're not relentless so giving them a reaper is kinda a so-so option.

 

The Relentless USR says, "Relentless models can shoot with rapid fire and heavy weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous Movement Phase, and are also allowed to assault in the same turn they fire them." (page 76 of the BRB)

 

The Wargear entry for Terminator Armor in the C:CSM says, "Terminator Armor are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons." (page 86 of C:CSM)

 

Isn't that effectively the same thing?

 

I would have said yes, but a few months back I tried to use that interpretation in a game and the disagreement between myself and my opponent very quickly involved the entire store and after a bit we came to the.... assigned understanding that if the USR in question isn't applied to the unit, then the description of the wargear is fluff only and thus not a rule.

 

Terminators don't have Relentless as a rule, there for they are not capable of moving and firing heavy weapons.

 

Do I disagree with this? Oh you'd better believe it. I also disgaree with the RAW ruling about Warp Time making you reroll all saves. But my disagreeing with the rule doesn't mean I can ignore it.

 

It's these sort of little inconsistencies that irk me so much about the CSM codex.

[Xeonic]

If the wargear entry is just fluff, wait wha?

The book clearly lists wargear, stats and a little description, then it goes on to armor.

 

"Power armor:

<dit da dit fluff stuff>

Models equipped with power armor recieve a 3+ Armor save.

 

Terminator armor:

<fluff stuf>

 

A model wearing terminator armor...may move and fire with heavy weapons and may assault after firing heavy weapons..."

 

This is clearly a rules entry. It describes(the only place I can find in the book!) terminator armor and power armor. In the the loyalist book this section also exists and it covers scout carapace and arti armor as well... I have never seen it interpereted as anything BUT a rules entry. Your opponent was arguing that every single termie in the game except chaos ones get to fire their heavy weapons? All the other out of date termies were recently FAQed to actually get relentless(DA previously had a the same sentence in their armory)...

Right after this section it goes on to describe the rules for vehicle wargear. So the argument is that just that part of the whole armory collection of pages should be interpreted as fluff? I'm so sorry, it's CLEARLY rules. IT STATES how terminator armor operates on the TT, very clearly IMO.

I'm slightly enraged that anyone would attempt to lawyer a different meaning out of it to gain an advantage.

[maverike_prime]

Fire at the Rhino: Miss. Miss. Miss

based on something like this . we should never play chaos because we can neither run cheap twin linked auto canons on dreads or get re-rolls in form vulkan etc. even oblits would suck [at least at 24" they could use twin linked plas]. with bs 4 there should be one or more roll on what happens to the transport . Doesnt of course mean you have a 100% chance to blow up a tank[for that you need either 5 twink linked melta or 7 normal to go through cover/out of 6"range etc]

 

As I already said:

 

I'm not saying I want the rules changed to garuntee that the Combi- terminators always work. I'm saying I want another viable option.

 

I'm not trying to use Thorpe logic here (The oh so wonderful "it doesn't matter if the Wraith lord is Toughness 8. Some times you just can't roll that 3 to hit no matter what you point at it." method of explanation after the 3rd edition Eldar codex)

 

What I'm saying is that for an Elite selection, there should be more then 2 viable options for Chaos Terminators.

 

We already established that the Heavy Flamer and the Reaper Autocannon just aren't worth the points.

 

Single lightning claw: why is this option even in the codex? They already have power weapons. They don't get to re-roll their wounds with a single lightning claw. Why am I going to pay the 10 extra points?

Power fist: Be worth it if the Terminators come onto the field riding in a Land Raider. Other wise it'll take them 2 turns to do anything once they're deployed.

Chain Fist: Meaner version of the Power Fist, same draw back.

Pair of Lightning Claws: If you take lightning claws you can forget deep striking. Which means they either foot slog it across the table or they ride in a Land Raider.

[Xeonic]

Where are you getting that you can't reroll wounds with a single claw? The rerolling of wounds is in the wargear entry, and every single book that has lightning claws lets them reroll wounds.

 

Now the costing on a single claw is a bit odd, but it sorta makes sense if you note that the second claw is replacing a ranged weapon worth X pts.

[Panda_]

You should move those posts into the rule section.

 

Even if this thread is 22 pages of hatred long, don't move off topic plz

[maverike_prime]

If the wargear entry is just fluff, wait wha?

The book clearly lists wargear, stats and a little description, then it goes on to armor.

 

"Power armor:

<dit da dit fluff stuff>

Models equipped with power armor recieve a 3+ Armor save.

 

Terminator armor:

<fluff stuf>

 

A model wearing terminator armor...may move and fire with heavy weapons and may assault after firing heavy weapons..."

 

This is clearly a rules entry. It describes(the only place I can find in the book!) terminator armor and power armor. In the the loyalist book this section also exists and it covers scout carapace and arti armor as well... I have never seen it interpereted as anything BUT a rules entry. Your opponent was arguing that every single termie in the game except chaos ones get to fire their heavy weapons? All the other out of date termies were recently FAQed to actually get relentless(DA previously had a the same sentence in their armory)...

Right after this section it goes on to describe the rules for vehicle wargear. So the argument is that just that part of the whole armory collection of pages should be interpreted as fluff? I'm so sorry, it's CLEARLY rules. IT STATES how terminator armor operates on the TT, very clearly IMO.

I'm slightly enraged that anyone would attempt to lawyer a different meaning out of it to gain an advantage.

 

To be blunt, you or I being enraged doesn't change much. The majority of people at my store (which is already a half hours drive for me and is the closest one) agreed that since Chaos Terminators do not have the Relentless USR, they do not count as having the abilities of the Relentless USR. Am I left out in the cold? Yup.

 

I just glanced at the CSM FAQ. I didn't see anything about the Chaos Terminators and Relentless, but if it is there, please point it out to me. I would love to be able to go back to that store and beat everyone in the face with my assaulting terminators after I shoot them up with 2 Reaper cannons.

 

Where are you getting that you can't reroll wounds with a single claw? The rerolling of wounds is in the wargear entry, and every single book that has lightning claws lets them reroll wounds.

 

Now the costing on a single claw is a bit odd, but it sorta makes sense if you note that the second claw is replacing a ranged weapon worth X pts.

 

I thought only Pairs of Lightning Claws got the reroll. Single Claws just counted as Power weapons. Or am I thinking of 4th ed?