What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[Notanoob]

Yeah, considering how many units are getting FNP this edition, it wouldn't be out of place for all the cults to have FNP. The thing is though, that would screw with the internal balance and hurt PMs. What special extra's do the have to compensate, with their main draw being standard?

[Xeonic]

...Make MoN give them base T5 instead of 4(5)? They could still be killed by the typical AP2 counters, but would be less vulnerable to T8 krak missile spam as they would get their FNP save vs it.

[daboarder]

Marks need to make units "cult" versions. IE: MON, +1T, FNP, -1I

[Abyssel]

Marks need to make units "cult" versions. IE: MON, +1T, FNP, -1I

Would kind of throw things out of balance.

Why would I take a special 7 man PM squad when I could just foot slog spam 20 regular marines with the exact same benefits for less. (relatively speaking)

[maverike_prime]

Marks need to make units "cult" versions. IE: MON, +1T, FNP, -1I

 

Dear god no! Please no. I like having the ability to have non-thousand Sons tzeentch marines and non-death guard Nurgle troops. I HATED that problem in the 3.5 edition. If you have Plague marines, they are Plague Marines. They are NOT some fuddy duddy angst ridden marines who get a single blessing from Nurgle! Just because Some band of Marines has the icon/mark of Tzeentch, that does NOT make them Thousand Sons. Mark of Khorne does not not psychotic frothing dip-sticks make.

 

Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, Berzerkers are unique units. You should not be able to turn Chaos Space Marines into them by buying a 10 point icon.

[A D-B]

Marks need to make units "cult" versions. IE: MON, +1T, FNP, -1I

 

Dear god no! Please no. I like having the ability to have non-thousand Sons tzeentch marines and non-death guard Nurgle troops. I HATED that problem in the 3.5 edition. If you have Plague marines, they are Plague Marines. They are NOT some fuddy duddy angst ridden marines who get a single blessing from Nurgle! Just because Some band of Marines has the icon/mark of Tzeentch, that does NOT make them Thousand Sons. Mark of Khorne does not not psychotic frothing dip-sticks make.

 

Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Rubric Marines, Berzerkers are unique units. You should not be able to turn Chaos Space Marines into them by buying a 10 point icon.

 

While that's a decent point in its own right, it also highlights something I'd like to see gone in the next codex. There's a difference between a Rubric Marine and a Thousand Son, and the army list names should reflect that. They fixed it for Khorne Berzerkers, Noise Marines and Plague Marines. Curious to miss out the last one (Rubric Marines); though I guess it might come down to what looks good on a box.

[Prot]

I think in some form another since 'Gav-dex' I've answered this kind of question and I have to be honest it has mostly been from a 'selfish' stand point of getting cool stuff for my special interests.

 

That being said I really want to see 'undivided' mean something significant, and 'desirable' in an arm list. Like Red Corsairs, or Alpha Legion, or Black Legion... I want to see it really mean something. I don't want undivided to be the "ultra' of Chaos.

[Captain Idaho]

I always though there should have been a Mark of Chaos Ascendent rather than Undivided. Chaos Marines aren't so indecisive! I wanted the rule to give the squad +1 WS and BS but at an appropriate price. Preferably making the squad suffer Instability wounds from failed leadership and usual points values.

[the jeske]

I like having the ability to have non-thousand Sons tzeentch marines and non-death guard Nurgle troops

yeah and with the icon system we are like seeing countless csm with icons of T and N being used.

 

There's a difference between a Rubric Marine and a Thousand Son, and the army list names should reflect that

wait . how ? the rubric spell was cast one time by the whole 1ksons chapter sorc led by ahriman , when did non 1ksons csm learn to cast it , specialy as magnus forbid to ever use this spell again after he banished ahriman . was there some sort of a change in the fluff again ?

I wanted the rule to give the squad +1 WS and BS but at an appropriate price.

but it wouldnt realy give us anything. zerkers would still be same WS and FC and more A at the same time and we cant realy play the shoting game [we cant combat squad we have to buffs to shoting like loyalist , we cant build a razor build because we dont have razors] so BS 5 would be kind of a wasted for us . specialy as almost sure it would make our csm cost 20+ points each . And that would be like 300 pts per squad which would butcher our support section even more , so in the end we would have to move back to the cheaper cult untis again .

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I like having the ability to have non-thousand Sons tzeentch marines and non-death guard Nurgle troops

yeah and with the icon system we are like seeing countless csm with icons of T and N being used.

I wanted the rule to give the squad +1 WS and BS but at an appropriate price.

but it wouldnt realy give us anything. zerkers would still be same WS and FC and more A at the same time and we cant realy play the shoting game [we cant combat squad we have to buffs to shoting like loyalist , we cant build a razor build because we dont have razors] so BS 5 would be kind of a wasted for us . specialy as almost sure it would make our csm cost 20+ points each . And that would be like 300 pts per squad which would butcher our support section even more , so in the end we would have to move back to the cheaper cult untis again .

I think he means ON TOP of new Codex updates. Having CSM's that can take MoN and MoTz that can actually DO something would be nice, as well as other, more useful marks. Also, a tone-up for CSM's to be able to shoot would be nice.

[A D-B]

There's a difference between a Rubric Marine and a Thousand Son, and the army list names should reflect that

wait . how ? the rubric spell was cast one time by the whole 1ksons chapter sorc led by ahriman , when did non 1ksons csm learn to cast it , specialy as magnus forbid to ever use this spell again after he banished ahriman . was there some sort of a change in the fluff again ?

 

Naw, no change. A great many (indeed, perhaps most) Chaos Marines leave their place in the Legions over the space of 10,000 years of war, and form more personal, relevant bonds that suit the barbaric battles and Mongol tribe-style warlordship of the Eye of Terror. We already know that, sure (and I have no interest in whether it's popular with gamers or not - I'm sanguine with the vague intention of GW's lore). A Rubric Marine (like a Noise Marine, for example) doesn't need to be a Thousand Son, the same way a Noise Marine may have left the Emperor's Children and joined the Black Legion, or whatever.

 

The four Cult Troops began in the relevant Legions, but many are now spread everywhere, either through them leaving the Legion, or through new ways of making the Cult Troop type. In the case of the Rubric Marines, we've already seen plenty of them in Black Legion (because they left the Thousand Sons, not because there's a new way to make Rubrics). That means they're Black Legion Rubric Marines, not Black Legion Thousand Sons - the same way a Noise Marine who leaves the Emperor's Children to become a Black Legionnaire is a Black Legion Noise Marine, not a Black Legion Emperor's Child.

 

It's just the name "Thousand Son" that needs changing.

[the jeske]

ah ok. my bad. interesting info anyway.

[A D-B]

ah ok. my bad. interesting info anyway.

 

Naw, it was my bad for explaining it so badly in the first post.

[Minsc]

I'd like for Marks on IC's to give the 'same' benefit that it does to cult troops, although on regular non-cult troop units, they should stay the same. (But without the idiotic icon-system.)

 

I'e a Chaos Lord/Sorcerer/Prince with;

 

MoN; +1T, FnP

MoT; +1W, Increased IV. (Psychic powers get autocast)

MoK; +1A, +1 WS, Furious Charge.

MoS; +1 I, Move as a Beast. (without beeing one.)

 

This way, we can actually have HQ's from the Legions, to lead our armies to battle, instead of some random renegade character.

 

Also, MoN should be +1 T, not +0T(+1).

[Emperors Immortals]

I'd like for Marks on IC's to give the 'same' benefit that it does to cult troops, although on regular non-cult troop units, they should stay the same. (But without the idiotic icon-system.)

 

I'e a Chaos Lord/Sorcerer/Prince with;

 

MoN; +1T, FnP

MoT; +1W, Increased IV. (Psychic powers get autocast)

MoK; +1A, +1 WS, Furious Charge.

MoS; +1 I, Move as a Beast. (without beeing one.)

 

This way, we can actually have HQ's from the Legions, to lead our armies to battle, instead of some random renegade character.

 

Also, MoN should be +1 T, not +0T(+1).

 

 

 

I really like this idea, simple but effective.

[Dryad]

I had a game today and realized how much I miss the simple but effective Deamonic Visage (or equivalent Ld modifier, whatever name you want to call it). In 5th, combat resolution is so important, but not nearly as complicated as in previous editions. So this simple -1 Ld (or -2 for a full unit with the upgrade, like Raptors, which was awesome) can really make a difference in pushing the enemy back and snagging some sweeping advances.

 

This upgrade on some Raptors, Termies and Chosen would really make my Night Lords list have some character.

[Hellios]

ah ok. my bad. interesting info anyway.

 

Naw, it was my bad for explaining it so badly in the first post.

 

If I think you are saying what you are saying that already happens... sorcerers from the one thousand sons do join the Black Legion... but rubrics never stop being one thousand son rubrics because I don't think they do that much thinking... if the sorcerer wants to repaint them then fine... only Tzeentch can stop him. While the first of the other cult units came from their respective legions but can now be created by any legion, the rubrics are unique to the 1ksons and to be honest if rubrics were taken away as one of the thousand sons bits of identity the 1ksons wouldn';t have much left but little piles of dust blowing over mouldy books while Magnus sits in his tower watching over mount doom. Need Rubric... terminators!

[A D-B]

ah ok. my bad. interesting info anyway.

 

Naw, it was my bad for explaining it so badly in the first post.

 

If I think you are saying what you are saying that already happens... sorcerers from the one thousand sons do join the Black Legion... but rubrics never stop being one thousand son rubrics because I don't think they do that much thinking... if the sorcerer wants to repaint them then fine... only Tzeentch can stop him. While the first of the other cult units came from their respective legions but can now be created by any legion, the rubrics are unique to the 1ksons and to be honest if rubrics were taken away as one of the thousand sons bits of identity the 1ksons wouldn';t have much left but little piles of dust blowing over mouldy books while Magnus sits in his tower watching over mount doom. Need Rubric... terminators!

 

They were unique, sure. But 10,000 years of battle has really worn down the Legion bonds. Pretty much all of the "Legions" as they were in the Heresy are really nothing more than scattered warbands and companies with varying degrees of unity (if any) to the greater army. (I know, I know, it's not popular with gamers, but it is what it is, and I'm trying to fit with current lore). Personal choice plays a major deal: some warbands will have massive regard for unity to their Legion, still behaving like the old companies they were, while others will have broken down into following charismatic and powerful warlords, like most of the Chaos Marines. But even in the Chaos Codex, we see Rubric Marines in the Black Legion. So Chaos Sorcerers (once of the Thousand Sons) do take their Rubric Marines with them into other forces, rather than remaining as Thousand Sons.

 

I think that's quite interesting (and I certainly like customising my army background more than just being the 3rd Company of X Chapter), but overall, I'd like it to be accurately named in the next codex. A Black Legion Thousand Son makes no sense. A Black Legion Rubric Marine does, if you get me. They're the same thing - one is just an oxymoron because of the name.

 

Of course, it could be argued successfully (as you said yourself) that any Rubrics in non-TS warbands are just allied or mercenaries, but I dunno. That's probably more common, but I doubt it's the only way they do it, especially not with the codex example of a Rubric Marine with the Black Legion shoulder guard.

[the jeske]

So Chaos Sorcerers (once of the Thousand Sons) do take their Rubric Marines with them into other forces, rather than remaining as Thousand Sons.

hmm but how do they survive , the fluff never told us about other 1ksons banished from the 1ksons legion other then the ahriman sect and that one was forced to rejoin the legion durning the last black crusade .

+ they are cult , outside of huge BL class events cults dont work well with people not worshiping the same god , in fact if their actions "buff" another god then there is a good chance they will get punished for it . Or was that changed to , because while the happy chaos family is in the rules , I cant find it in the fluff of the dex .

 

 

(I know, I know, it's not popular with gamers, but it is what it is, and I'm trying to fit with current lore)

well because it does recton 20+ years of fluff for at leas tthe cult legions ,the BL and the WB .

[A D-B]

So Chaos Sorcerers (once of the Thousand Sons) do take their Rubric Marines with them into other forces, rather than remaining as Thousand Sons.

hmm but how do they survive , the fluff never told us about other 1ksons banished from the 1ksons legion other then the ahriman sect and that one was forced to rejoin the legion durning the last black crusade .

+ they are cult , outside of huge BL class events cults dont work well with people not worshiping the same god , in fact if their actions "buff" another god then there is a good chance they will get punished for it .

 

I'm not sure it's quite that cut and dry, but it's definitely food for thought. A sorcerer taking his automatons doesn't really need to worry about surviving any more than anyone else, though. He's just another Chaos Marine with power, looking to either lord it over others, or attach himself to a powerful leader. His Rubrics aren't going to crumble to dust (...teehee) the second he decides that wearing blue and gold isn't a good look this solar season. Ultimately, insofar as Tzeentch pays attention to the dealings of such minor dudes, I suspect as long as the sorcerer is doing his god's work (and the greater work of Chaos), all will be well.

 

That actually opens up some killer ideas for a story in my warband, now. I think I love you, Jeske.

 

 

Or was that changed to , because while the happy chaos family is in the rules , I cant find it in the fluff of the dex .

 

Wellllllllllllllll, yeah and naw, I guess. One thing the Chaos Codex did pretty well was highlight that there's very little friendliness between Chaos Marines these days. They can't even hold their Legions together in the face of 10,000 years of infighting and conflict; instead, they're reduced to only cooperating in times of raiding or crusading for mutual gain, or when a powerful warlord offers them something.

 

Chaos Marines have never been less unified and more intolerant of each other in the background before the current codex. That's one of the things I love about it. Far from the "happy family" deal, they actually loathe one another more than ever, and clearly only unite under powerful leaders, when the time is right. That ferocious independence, coupled with the bitter, tribal theme is part of why I like Chaos Marines so much.

[Hellios]

Of course, it could be argued successfully (as you said yourself) that any Rubrics in non-TS warbands are just allied or mercenaries, but I dunno. That's probably more common, but I doubt it's the only way they do it, especially not with the codex example of a Rubric Marine with the Black Legion shoulder guard.

 

I just feel the Rubrics themselves can't/don't/won't change sides. For example I draw a line between a member of the deathguard who has joined the black legion and plague marines who are from the black legion. The black legion has the people with the skills to turn black legionaires into plague marines and those marines will be true black legionnaires while the the Deathguard who join will always be outsiders. The spirits within the rubrics are thousand sons and the sorcerer who commands them may change sides (or maybe a sorcerer from another legion can wrestle mastery of them off him?) but the rubrics themselves are still sons of Magnus... even if they fear vaccum cleaners now.

[A D-B]

Of course, it could be argued successfully (as you said yourself) that any Rubrics in non-TS warbands are just allied or mercenaries, but I dunno. That's probably more common, but I doubt it's the only way they do it, especially not with the codex example of a Rubric Marine with the Black Legion shoulder guard.

 

I just feel the Rubrics themselves can't/don't/won't change sides. For example I draw a line between a member of the deathguard who has joined the black legion and plague marines who are from the black legion. The black legion has the people with the skills to turn black legionaires into plague marines and those marines will be true black legionnaires while the the Deathguard who join will always be outsiders. The spirits within the rubrics are thousand sons and the sorcerer who commands them may change sides (or maybe a sorcerer from another legion can wrestle mastery of them off him?) but the rubrics themselves are still sons of Magnus... even if they fear vaccum cleaners now.

 

But Rubrics are essentially mindless automatons. They don't care about anything, because they can't - they simply don't have the mental function. If they're not guided by a nearby sorcerer, they do nothing at all. They're undead, in a way: ghosts clad in ceramite, and that rocks on toast.

 

Look at it this way. They're not really sons of Magnus at all, firstly because the Legions themselves have largely broken down into separate warbands/companies/Great Companies/whatever, and despite how cool the primarchs are, they're much, much too busy in the Great Game of Chaos to really care about their former Legions - that's why Abaddon is the Antichrist of 40K, and the Warmaster of Chaos. The primarchs have ascended beyond material concerns. Then there's the fact that the Thousand Son sorcerers themselves who command the Rubrics are often joining other warbands as Thousand Sons, or casting off their ancient allegiances for something more relevant (like most Chaos Marines) and becoming Black Legionnaires, or simply not caring about Legion allegiance and trying to survive. Then add that to the fact that Rubrics have no mind, no passion, and are essentially just automatons who are blindly loyal to the nearby sorcerer giving them orders. We also have codex lore showing a Rubric in the Black Legion, and information stating how Thousand Son sorcerers lead their Rubrics into battle in exchange for magical power and the chance to find arcane items on raids, etc.

 

It's only a difficult concept if one sticks to the concepts of the Legions being enduring bastions of unity for 10,000 years. Really, all the evidence is to the contrary in almost every edition, and is likely to become more and more pronounced. With the opportunities and creativity on offer now (one of the thankfully decent bits of our current codex) stuff like this starts to make a cool kind of sense.

 

If anything, Rubrics are more likely than most cult units to be defectors: they'd have no choice, and they wouldn't even know what was happening - they have no mind of their own, and Chaos Sorcerers (primarily from the Thousand Sons, if we're talking numerically, here) are famous for doing whatever they want, with whomever they want, allying for purposes of seeking knowledge and power. When they go hunting for relics and lore, they take their Rubrics with them. (I'm not saying all, or even most, would join another Legion, of course. That's very drastic, and would come down to a sorcerer's belief in what worked best for him, and for the Chaos Marines as a whole, if he cared about that much. But the precedent is there.)

 

Goddamn, just thinking about this stuff is why I love Chaos so much. The possibilities.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

If anything, Rubrics are more likely than most cult units to be defectors: they have no mind of their own, and Chaos Sorcerers (primarily from the Thousand Sons, if we're talking numerically, here) are famous for doing whatever they want, with whomever they want, allying for purposes of seeking knowledge and power. When they go hunting for relics and lore, they take their Rubrics with them.

 

And this is how I have Thousand Sons auxilia in my Black Legion. :devil:

[Hellios]

The thousand sons are not as broken up as many legions, you have ahrimans cabal and a few other odd sorcerers who go and wonder but most of the time whats left of the thousand sons sits on the planet of the sorcerers doing nothing. Allying with others isn't the same as defecting. If you consider that as a legion under Magnus' command the thousand sons have no plan but to research and study then going on jaunts with the other legions isn't hurting the thousand sons and has the benefit that they can bring knew knowledge and artifcats back to the planet of sorcerers.

 

The fluff is very specific that Rubric marines are the only cult unit that is specific to one legion and should a sorcerer who has actually joined another legion die well for all we know the rubrics will just sit there, they might listen to another sorcerer from outside the thousand sons but we don't know if that is the case. I'm not sure that mindless is the right word, I think they are much like eldar wraith constructs in that they essentially live in another realm or at least view 'are realm in a totally different manner, in addition to that they have no needs and nothing to drive them, they don't know, fear, hunger or boredom! They have no reason to shoot something or run away. What they do remember is obeying orders from their superiors and so almost by reflex that is what they do.

[A D-B]

The thousand sons are not as broken up as many legions, you have ahrimans cabal and a few other odd sorcerers who go and wonder but most of the time whats left of the thousand sons sits on the planet of the sorcerers doing nothing.

 

I sincerely doubt that, though. Largely because it's not interesting. They're out raiding, plundering, power-seeking and knowledge-hunting as much as anyone else. Magnus doesn't care. He's got more important matters. If the Chaos Primarchs cared, they'd be leading their sons, not Abaddon.

 

Allying with others isn't the same as defecting.

 

Very true. Like I said, I reckon most will just ally with others, but we do have precedent for sorcerers and Rubrics joining the Black Legion. And even then, "defecting" implies betraying some formal organisation. In reality, it's just allying with someone else for however long you choose to. Very few other Thousand Sons would be annoyed. They do it themselves. Magnus doesn't care. He's a busy guy.

 

 

The fluff is very specific that Rubric marines are the only cult unit that is specific to one legion

 

But... it's not specific like that, dude. Not at all. The most updated codex shows Rubric Marines in the Black Legion. I'm not saying it's super-common, but the possibility, the potential, is very real. And awesome. Thousand Son Sorcerers aren't any different from all the other Chaos Marines. They leave their Legion as much as any other. It's not even defection, as there's really not much to defect from - ancient allegiances decay and mean much less when you've had 10,000 years of infighting. The Legions exist, in part, and that rocks. But they're not relevant to most Chaos Marines' daily lives, so they choose more relevant, useful bonds. That could be a new group of allies, or just sticking to a company-level gang of their old Legion. Either is likely. In this instance, defecting and "just allying with someone else" is largely the same thing. Legions barely matter to most Chaos Marines. That's very hard for a lot of gamers to grasp, sure, I struggle myself - but it's integral to what Chaos Marines think. Most of them don't see their Legion as loyalists see their Chapter. Many do, but most don't. Their primarchs are gone, and they've been fighting each other for 10,000 years. It's not so much defecting as just having little to do with a Legion as a concept, anymore. Staying true to the ideals, the principles, the fighting style and the rituals of the Legion? Hell yes. Even coming to help other Legion guys if they call? Definitely. But existing as a cohesive army? Plenty of warbands from the same Legion will have been tearing each other to pieces for thousands of years, fighting over wargear, ships, worlds, territories, resources, recruits, knowledge, power and in the name of different gods.

 

Obviously, this is a perception thing. You see the Thousand Sons as very organised and based on one world. I see them as scattered sorcerers, leading bands of Rubrics around the galaxy as they ally with other Chaos Marines and seek lore for their own uses. Both work fine. Neither is wrong. One is closer bound to 3.5 edition, and the other is closer to 2 and 5, but that's no bad thing in itself.

 

 

...and should a sorcerer who has actually joined another legion die well for all we know the rubrics will just sit there,

 

It makes more sense to me that they'd survive and follow their sorcerer. They have no idea what his allegiance is, anyway. They don't care. They're basically automatons.

 

 

I'm not sure that mindless is the right word, I think they are much like eldar wraith constructs in that they essentially live in another realm or at least view 'are realm in a totally different manner,

 

"Although these living suits still move and function, and can respond to orders just like a sentient man, they are little more than automatons." - from the codex.

 

One thing that does interest me is the sentence "They quickly fall into inactivity unless a Thousand Sons Sorcerer blah blah", which could imply it's purely a Thousand Son magus leading them, and then raises the issue that, well, if you paint the Eye of Horus on your shoulder pad, do your Rubrics suddenly switch off? Likely not. In this case, it looks more like Thousand Son is the wrong use of the word, like in the unit entry. I'll ask Gav, actually. I'm curious now.

 

...in addition to that they have no needs and nothing to drive them, they don't know, fear, hunger or boredom! They have no reason to shoot something or run away. What they do remember is obeying orders from their superiors and so almost by reflex that is what they do.

 

Exactly. And if their superior paints one shoulder pad black and fights with different guys, that's all there is to it.

 

Come on, Hellios. Possibilities! Shades of grey!

 

Remember, even "defecting to the Black Legion" is really little more than saying "Sure, I'll come with you for a few raids, I guess". It doesn't need to be a formal swearing or whatever else. There are as many ways to live as a Chaos Marine as there are Chaos Marines themselves. They're tricky to apply blanket rules to, because their lives always break them.

 

I think the clash is that we're both right. And I like both perceptions, personally. I'm just trying (for my warband, not my novels...) to stick to the most current lore.

 

Notice that for all I say stuff's broken down, I still write "Night Lords novels". Sure, they hate other Night Lords, and only ally with any other Chaos Marines when they have to, but they're not Black Legionnaires, and they hate the one guy they knew that took that step. But again, that's just one warband's opinion. I'm sure others wouldn't care.