What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Remember, even "defecting to the Black Legion" is really little more than saying "Sure, I'll come with you for a few raids, I guess". It doesn't need to be a formal swearing or whatever else. There are as many ways to live as a Chaos Marine as there are Chaos Marines themselves. They're tricky to apply blanket rules to, because their lives always break them.

I'm with A D-B on this. I have mindless automata with AP3 weapons, and one of Abbaddon's lietenants wants to assault a Space Marine defended outpost, there's a chance of arcane relics and all sorts of goodies, they are offering me the first pick of the toys, I'm in there.

[Legatus]

The Index Astartes Article for the Night Lords (from back in 3rd Edition) actually mentioned Thousand Sons fighting for other forces:

 

"Night Lords are exceptionally versatile in their use of the forces of Chaos, employing the hell-spawned powers of each of the major Chaos deities with equal favour. It is just as likely that the Night Lords will be seen fighting alongside a group of foul Plague Marines as it is the warriors of the Thousand Sons."

 

Even though the Index Astartes articles and the 3.5 Codex introduced the option to play a force from exclusively one single Legion, the general Chaos forces were still allways considered to be warbands with units from originally different Legions.

[Hellios]

Come on, Hellios. Possibilities! Shades of grey!

 

Ahhh but that is whole irony of the pre-Tzeentch thousand sons... That apart from the sorcerers (where I guess mutation is still low but some might make it to daemonhood I guees) the rest of the thousand sons (The 1st amongst Tzeentches mortal followers) are really bland and lack anything any real interest in terms of characters... they serve the lord of change yet their physical form never changes, they serve the master of schemes yet they have no ambition of their own. Of all the gods Tzeentch is where the most options should exist, however the rubrics purposefully provide something that seems contry.

 

I also put forward that the thousand sons are boring as you describe it... they are the thinking legion... I'm not saying they never leave, and never fight but they have no interest (generalising here I can't speak for all individuals) in plunder(Gold, jewels, booty), building empires or slaughtering people for fun. They are much more interested in knowledge (and some artifacts) that they hope will lead them to something far greater... for what is ruling an empire compared to the mastery of the warp? The abillity to control both time and space? They are also schemers so if they can get something without putting in a lot of work then they will do that. However few places have the kind of knowledge and artifacts they want... you get the book here and there (but they need to know about it first) and no doubt some places exist... maybe vaults on terra (which they can't get at) or the black library (which ahriman is trying to get into) where they can find a boat load of what they want.

 

Also about the Primarchs not caring... Angron cares B) He was just banished into the warp and so can't do anything :'(

 

Magnus, Perturabo and Mortarion sit around crying on their planets, Lorgar is being worshiped on his planet so he might fall into this and the fluff I've seen seems to indicate that the Word Bearers do have a chain of command with strict obediance to the apostles... who I reckon would listen to lorgar... although he might let them do their own thing.

 

Horus and the Nigh Haunter are dead...

 

We have Alpharius or do we?

 

That leaves us with 'fulgrim' or more correctly the daemon inside of him... who may or may not be banished into the warp (I'm not sure about this guy) and if he isn't banished I bet he is fighting battles within the realm of the warp for his/her master slaanesh.

 

So of the primarchs the ones who appear to not be doing anything are the two who didn't really want to turn to chaos (although Mortartion did want to side with Horus) Magnus and Mortarion and then Purterabo who is famous for sulking so it shouldn't be a real surprise.

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Perturabo who is famous for sulking so it shouldn't be a real surprise.

He prefers the term "Plotting", but ok ;)

[TheDarkApostle]

Lorgar is busy trying to make sense of the visions and commands he is given by the Gods and making prophecies which is given out to his ring leaders who then pass it on further to the various Apostles to do.

 

Or something like that :o

 

TDA

[subtlebrush]

I just figured I would add that aren't the Thousand Sons or more importantly Ahriman's Thousand Sons (those who sided with him when Magnus cast him from the planet of sorcerers) searching for the Black Library? You know that bizzaro realm the Harlequins are keeping to themselves, which holds all the collected knowledge of the universe. I just figured anyone not sided with Ahriman would of course be "guns for hire" and would fight for anyone, since IMHO I don't see Magnus doing much outside the realm of chaos (more brooding over things lost since he rebuilt Prospero as the planet of the sorcerers). I don't think the Thousand Sons are boring at all but their execution in the current dex makes fielding them boring as hell.

[A D-B]

I also put forward that the thousand sons are boring as you describe it...

 

You gooberfish. I wasn't saying they were boring. OH MY GOD I HATE YOU HELLIOS.

 

One day, we'll meet on the tabletop, and I'll straight-up lie in the battle report, telling everyone that I actually won.

[maverike_prime]

One day, we'll meet on the tabletop, and I'll straight-up lie

 

So in short we shouldn't believe anything you say about the 40k? So does that mean First Herectic was all a lie? Did the Custodes deliberatly corrupt Argal speccically to incriminate Lorgar? oh my god. It was the Adeptus Custodes who started the Heresy! And then they failed to protect the Emperor. Way to go guys. Nice job being the body guard and all.

 

 

Just kidding. But seriously, keep the "My idea is more accurate then yours" style debates to a minimum in this thread.

[Captain Tezdal]

One day, we'll meet on the tabletop, and I'll straight-up lie

 

So in short we shouldn't believe anything you say about the 40k? So does that mean First Herectic was all a lie? Did the Custodes deliberatly corrupt Argal speccically to incriminate Lorgar? oh my god. It was the Adeptus Custodes who started the Heresy! And then they failed to protect the Emperor. Way to go guys. Nice job being the body guard and all.

 

 

Just kidding. But seriously, keep the "My idea is more accurate then yours" style debates to a minimum in this thread.

 

I wouldn't put it him past him, it's like my mother said "Trust is earned, and the only way to earn my trust is to write a badass World Eaters novel! KILL MAIM BURN!". Besides we all know those Custodians were up to no good.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Lorgar is busy trying to make sense of the visions and commands he is given by the Gods and making prophecies which is given out to his ring leaders who then pass it on further to the various Apostles to do.

 

Or something like that :devil:

 

TDA

Didn't he go into a temple to think about what he had done, and pray to the Dark Gods for guidance? He went in right after everyone was rounded up into the Eye, and hasn't been left since then?

[Decepticon Soundwave]

hmmm....If we follow trends

 

I want to keep Yabbadabbadoddon and the others. However Typhus should be T 5 and Eternal warrior. I would like to see new special characters for Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion. Maybe something along the lines of chapter tactics like this character confers USR's

 

I would like character options or wargear upgrades for Dark Apostles and Warsmiths.

 

I would like it to be possible to have a 4+ invuln without mark of tzeentch.

 

An upgrade for our dreadnaughts to not be psychopaths.

 

Drop Pods or Dreadclaws whatever they are called, Transport Capacity 12 Land Raiders, a Chaos varient of Land Raider, Thunder hammers, Cult Terminators

 

I also do not care if deamons deamons get folded back in or not however I would however like anew system for summoning. If you summon a deamon through a Khorne Banner they get +1 attack, Slaanesh +1 I, Tzeentch 4+ invuln, Nurgle +1 T.

 

I like deamon weapons the way they are.

 

As for marks I would like it to not be "we love khorne and are angry" due to wound allocation bill the guy holding a stick died "we are no longer angry now that bill died." If I buy a mark for a unit I want it to stay even if the guy with the big stick dies.

 

and maybe if we are lucky matt ward will write our codex so it will be crazy and over the top with marines that can eat plasma and :devil: land raiders. But in all seriousness I want the focus of our codex to be both renegades and cult lists.

[TheDarkApostle]

Lorgar is busy trying to make sense of the visions and commands he is given by the Gods and making prophecies which is given out to his ring leaders who then pass it on further to the various Apostles to do.

 

Or something like that :)

 

TDA

Didn't he go into a temple to think about what he had done, and pray to the Dark Gods for guidance? He went in right after everyone was rounded up into the Eye, and hasn't been left since then?

Both yes and no.

 

First he did a bit of this and that IIRC with the main point of him being elevated to Daemon Primarch Prince status.

 

Then well yeah, he pretty much locked himself up in his inner sanctum on Sicarius to pen down all the visions and prophecies given by the Gods. And ironically they keep giving him new ones all the time...

 

TDA

[Son of Rawl]

Something to compensate for the absolute retarded background that Kaldor Draigo has, seriously if one marine can walk around the Realm of Chaos an be able to make even the gods fear him then I want someone who walks around the Imperial Palace kicking ass and doing all sort of perverted stuff to appease chaos

[the jeske]

around the Realm of Chaos an be able

well that actualy does make sense . gods chaos or not maybe powerful , but the chaos realm is also infinite and not even tzeench can follow what happens everywhere and at time[specialy as the where and time part in the chaos realm is problematic].

 

Same with being able to hurt gods . Look at the chaos demon dex , khorn makes a demon prince with too much power and he actualy manages to hurt him . now imagine a mortal armed with a weapon that cant of course kill a god , but can hurt him and you cant find him , that would be a problem , even more so that you as something all powerful [i doubt any god thinks of himself as having limits] you cant admit that this one mortal is a problem.

 

that fluff actualy does make sense.

[Hellios]

I also put forward that the thousand sons are boring as you describe it...

 

You gooberfish. I wasn't saying they were boring. OH MY GOD I HATE YOU HELLIOS.

 

One day, we'll meet on the tabletop, and I'll straight-up lie in the battle report, telling everyone that I actually won.

 

I take photos and everyone will see your defeat after the inevitable slaughter caused by my army of grots. XD

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Something to compensate for the absolute retarded background that Kaldor Draigo has, seriously if one marine can walk around the Realm of Chaos an be able to make even the gods fear him then I want someone who walks around the Imperial Palace kicking ass and doing all sort of perverted stuff to appease chaos

 

I'm still musing on what to do about that guy on the tabletop. I'm missing Lost & the Damned more and more; at least then I could tarpit him in CC forever with cheap hordes of Traitor Guard while my Marines took care of business against the rest of the OPFOR. Without Lesser Daemons, we don't have any cheap tarpit units to waste keeping Draigo away from relevance.

[A D-B]

One day, we'll meet on the tabletop, and I'll straight-up lie

Just kidding. But seriously, keep the "My idea is more accurate then yours" style debates to a minimum in this thread.

 

I think we've avoided them pretty well, no? I was even distinctly saying, several times, it was down to personal perspective and that we were both right. All is well in the world.

 

One day, we'll meet on the tabletop, and I'll straight-up lie in the battle report, telling everyone that I actually won.

 

I take photos and everyone will see your defeat after the inevitable slaughter caused by my army of grots. XD

 

They'll believe me, because I lie for a living.

[Captain Idaho]

To pick up on something A D-B mentioned and has said in quite alot of detail, even if back tracking a little. Note I'm not saying this is his view, rather something I have brought up inspired from what he said.

 

I believe the concept many Chaos Marines fan have of Chaos isn't really Chaos at all as GW defines it. There is alot of rejection whenever someone says "Chaos should have some more random stuff in it", "they should be self serving" or "some weapons and units should deal damage to their own side" stating "that isn't Chaos but Orks". People see Chaos Marines as organised and unified in their allegiences. I've been told a number of times how Chaos is distinctly not random, self serving or shouldn't have weapons that damage their own side but if that was the case what would represent Chaos adequately and accurately?

 

Sure some of the Chaos boys are organised, but not all of them and in fact I think most aren't. Individual Warbands may fight like well oiled machines, but that can range from a demi-Company amount of Marines to several hundred (or more) so that doesn't mean they work well together.

 

Chaos is, well, Chaos. They fight and kill eachother and wage eternal war on everything and anything (sure they hate the Imperium, but do you really think they would stop the fighting if the Imperium ceased to be.

 

I believe people need to embrace Chaos as in a literary sense (not in reality you loonies). A D-B has explained quite well that your Warband can still keep it's Legion identity, just as long as everyone knows how mercenary the Traitor Legionaires are and embraces that too. This is the thing A D-B said about both opinions being right.

 

And that wouldn't even preclude rules for particular Legions being important in a new Codex. The Warbands from the same genetic heritage would have similar traits, even if not unified.

[A D-B]

To pick up on something A D-B mentioned and has said in quite alot of detail, even if back tracking a little. Note I'm not saying this is his view, rather something I have brought up inspired from what he said.

 

I believe the concept many Chaos Marines fan have of Chaos isn't really Chaos at all as GW defines it.

 

That's absolutely true, trust me. I know that from in-depth talks with GW folks, so I'm lucky to have a (slightly) clearer view. EDIT: And note, I was many miles wide of the mark until I had it painstakingly explained to me.

 

A lot of it is in part to poor presentation in the books themselves, failing to make it as interesting and clear as it should be, for various reasons; part of it is down to the IA articles giving the most information about Chaos Marines and then sticking as the defining lore - a very bizarre tactic that I think they might regret now; a lot more of it is a gamer mindset, to identify with an army, and 'Be An (Army X) Player'; and a lot of it comes down repeatedly to the fact that people fall back to internet soundbites and quick, instinctive reactions, without realising that, really, if we'd just think this through, we could have our cake and eat it.

 

"Warband" has become a swear word, in some circles. It doesn't mean what a lot of people think it means.

 

Sometimes, I want to do an essay on this topic. It fascinates me.

[Rik Riorik]

Definetly the IA articles gave a lot of information on the Legions, but even the 2nd edition Chaos army book had about a columns worth of information about each and every of the original nine traitor Legions. I don't think people are generally against the notion that warbands exist and are of the opinion that the Legions is what defines the Chaos to the exclusion of almost anything else. Its just that a large amount of people don't find "random warband #25 through #476" to be very interesting to play. A lot of people enjoy playing as something pre defined, something fleshed out and even using that pre defined to then make an intepretation of that so as to create a warband equivalent but based on a Legion.

 

In essence G-Dubya might very well have Chaos down as a total smattering of warlords and warbands with a few more organised exceptions and the Legions of old being either virtually non existant or much weaker institutions than they used to be. But people don't care. Because not everyone is a DIY person. Some want something they can relate to, base stuff on and virtually only the Legions are what has been extensively covered and readily made available. Heck, the Legions are the only ones that had actual rules that defined them.

 

But that is really what you're saying.

[A D-B]

Definetly the IA articles gave a lot of information on the Legions, but even the 2nd edition Chaos army book had about a columns worth of information about each and every of the original nine traitor Legions. I don't think people are generally against the notion that warbands exist and are of the opinion that the Legions is what defines the Chaos to the exclusion of almost anything else. Its just that a large amount of people don't find "random warband #25 through #476" to be very interesting to play. A lot of people enjoy playing as something pre defined, something fleshed out and even using that pre defined to then make an intepretation of that so as to create a warband equivalent but based on a Legion.

 

In essence G-Dubya might very well have Chaos down as a total smattering of warlords and warbands with a few more organised exceptions and the Legions of old being either virtually non existant or much weaker institutions than they used to be. But people don't care. Because not everyone is a DIY person. Some want something they can relate to, base stuff on and virtually only the Legions are what has been extensively covered and readily made available. Heck, the Legions are the only ones that had actual rules that defined them.

 

But that is really what you're saying.

 

For really reals.

 

The crux issue is how the perception often goes too far one way or the other in forum debates. That it's either "I am a Word Bearer of the Word Bearers Legion, end of story" or "I play my extensively DIY'd random warband #719".

 

If it came across better, we could be having our cake and eating it. Instead, things are often bizarrely polarised. There's a wealth of variety, and not all of it needs to be broken down and DIY'd, but it doesn't really look that way from what we're given to deal with. Instead, we often see arguments based on "Random Warband #719" versus IA articles that are 2 editions (and 10 years) out of date.

 

What we need is the Chaos Marines presented in realistic, interesting ways that aren't pandering to the artificial divide. There's so much tread in the concept, yet it's so rarely mentioned, and so often strangled by bitter soundbites.

[Captain Idaho]

I understand the need for a little unity, people wanting to have their army part of a relevant faction and not a made up one. Just like the loyalists. However, this doesn't mean that those fractured warbands aren't Legionaires.

 

Think of each warband as a single agent of their current allegience. Some are originals. Some are half castes of several sources of geneitc heritage. Some hold onto their historic loyalties, others forge their own paths on their own whims.

 

But all are a warband, whether they maintain their old Company structure or fight in loose collections out of familarity. The Legions do no exist as they once did.

 

Tell everyone what is a great example of what has become of the Legion organisation; Dead Sky, Black Sun. That story has a great tale of the independence and rivalary of the Warbands, this case called Iron Warrior Grand Companies. They are all living on the same planet and show deference to their Primarch, but they fight amongst themselves and each Warsmith follows his own agenda.

[Hellios]

I understand the need for a little unity, people wanting to have their army part of a relevant faction and not a made up one. Just like the loyalists. However, this doesn't mean that those fractured warbands aren't Legionaires.

 

Think of each warband as a single agent of their current allegience. Some are originals. Some are half castes of several sources of geneitc heritage. Some hold onto their historic loyalties, others forge their own paths on their own whims.

 

But all are a warband, whether they maintain their old Company structure or fight in loose collections out of familarity. The Legions do no exist as they once did.

 

Tell everyone what is a great example of what has become of the Legion organisation; Dead Sky, Black Sun. That story has a great tale of the independence and rivalary of the Warbands, this case called Iron Warrior Grand Companies. They are all living on the same planet and show deference to their Primarch, but they fight amongst themselves and each Warsmith follows his own agenda.

 

I think a lot of people get this actually... However the way I take it is take your legion standard and give it a little twist... sure some lords will be oddballs but hell Zufor who isn't even a World Eater let alone a Heresy era marine acts like I would expect a World Eater of his skulltaker warband to behave. I'm sure he has his little quirks if we looked at him in more depth...

 

The thing is suddenly just because I Zarious of the Iron Warrior legion decide to go off and do my own thing with a few groupies and name them the Children of Zarious dosen't mean we stop acting like Iron Warriors... if we were good at blowing up bunkers we still are if we don't have many bikes we probably still don't... You might get the odd exception if Zarious was say from the assault company and had bikes... but not a lot of big guns or if he just so happens to love speed on a personal level... it could happen and people can make undivided/legion neutral lists... thats fine... we just want the option to play a dedicated legion force because they do exist... and I don't mind if everyone can have rubric terminators as long as everyone having all the options dosen't make the codex unbalanced compared to the other codices and my 1ksons list is isn't crippled by being fluffy.

[Rik Riorik]

The thing is though that this is what people have basically been doing all along. That's basically just mini-legion-ing it. So you have mini-legions and renegade chapters that supply the uniform but a proper warband is a conglomerate of a conquered warbands, single recruits and alliances from legions, renegades and other warbands all rolled into one lovely pot.

[Captain Idaho]

The thing is suddenly just because I Zarious of the Iron Warrior legion decide to go off and do my own thing with a few groupies and name them the Children of Zarious dosen't mean we stop acting like Iron Warriors... if we were good at blowing up bunkers we still are if we don't have many bikes we probably still don't... You might get the odd exception if Zarious was say from the assault company and had bikes... but not a lot of big guns or if he just so happens to love speed on a personal level... it could happen and people can make undivided/legion neutral lists... thats fine... we just want the option to play a dedicated legion force because they do exist... and I don't mind if everyone can have rubric terminators as long as everyone having all the options dosen't make the codex unbalanced compared to the other codices and my 1ksons list is isn't crippled by being fluffy.

 

I think we are in agreement actually. The Codex should definitely have options to theme an army along a single genetic heritage.