What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[Prot]

Perturabo who is famous for sulking so it shouldn't be a real surprise.

He prefers the term "Plotting", but ok :D

 

Sulking? You call quiet, murderous rage with a dash of unnerving tactical superiority, sulking?

 

I was thinking about why I played IW for so long. And I came up with the fact I can identify with Perturabo.

 

This was back in the good ol' Pete Haines days. I was left with the impression that IW did a stink load of work no one wanted, and we all know IF's were the glory boys.

 

But even when IW decided enough was enough, I never got the sense that IW were.... 'enslaved' by Chaos. I distinctly got the impression that IW could take or leave Chaos. They definitely did put their time in with Chaos, and they did specific 'favours' for Abe to get the stuff they simply weren't able to produce themselves.....

 

In the new Codex I want to see the IW's, and some of the other Legions (Black Legion- Alpha Legion etc?) to still have that 'freedom'. I want to see that edge of tactical warfare that is NOT dependent on slobbering, zombie like marines, stumbling on the battlefield.

 

This is why I think I could never get on board with the legions that are 'slaves of darkness'..... Guys like 1K sons... total slaves, etc. I think in the codex that we should still see those very, very, specifically dedicated Legions have advantages in respect to their allegiance. I just want to see the other guys not get the short end of the stick.

 

Also, side note, I don't want to see a Honsou character. What a friggin *$#@! that guy is.

 

Also!... I don't care if Graham McNeil answered my question on this specifically: Forrix is alive! He teleported from his death experience up to his personal battle cruiser after being curb stomped by a Titan. Honsou never knew of this, assuming him dead. Forrix, knowing Honsou was sack of incompetent, half-breed, boot licker laid low until his wounds could recover. Then he got suited up with even more bionic awesomeness and now hunts down Honsou....

 

So yea, I'd like to see a Forrix special character in the next codex. ;)

[Shas'o R'Vre]

I was thinking about why I played IW for so long. And I came up with the fact I can identify with Perturabo.

 

This was back in the good ol' Pete Haines days. I was left with the impression that IW did a stink load of work no one wanted, and we all know IF's were the glory boys

This, plus the fact that I suffer from paranoia and inadequacy issues, so they are the legion with my traits :D

[chaplain belisarius]

i like the IW too (im a chef and i wind up doing most of the work...kinda like perturabo!)

[Prot]

See? We can all relate to Perturabo and the IW.... because they got tired of cleaning toilet bowls for the man. They got tired of listening to the boys in blue spouting the company line. They were fed up with Imperial Fists and their 'corporate Kool-Aid'.

 

Who's with me?! Down with the old man in the wheelchair! Iron Warriors aren't 'bad'... they're misunderstood.... and paranoid, and like killing stuff in fortifications. Since when is that a bad combination? How can you not give that wonderful combination a cool set of rules that doesn't involve zombies with bolters?

[Shas'o R'Vre]

Who's with me?! Down with the old man in the wheelchair!

We'll show those sorry blind slaves that they worship a corpse upon a pedestal! We shall bring the skies down upon them... Or we would, if we had a usable artillery piece.

[Zeller]

I wish I had chosen IW over WB back when I started chaos. <_<

 

You have my sword.

[Decepticon Soundwave]

I always joke around that the emperor is really terry shiavo, or the great liche priest of terra. But i would also like One thing back that I think would give armies flavor again, Sacred Numbers even if not a cult troop, sacred numbers were awesome and made dice roll better.

 

Like how I would redo it for the next book is

Beserkers: numbering 8, 16 or 24 free skull champion

Khorne Marines: Numbering 8:2 weapon upgrades, 16: 3weapon upgrades 24: 4

and so on and so forth down the list. I think it will add more character to the cult lists again and to the renegade lists which honestly are just attempted tournament lists under the guise of fluffy army composition.

[Lord Ragnarok]

For me, I think two dexes are needed or a very concise and clear set of rules fluff for Renegades vs Legions of old.

 

 

(Keep in min the following is more from a fluff/"makes sense" and not a gaming one)

 

 

Renegades:

-Take more codex marine type of equipment (speeders, AC's, drop pods). It is just silly to think a renegade chapter loses all equipment everytime and magically acquires legion stuff.

-less powerful chaotic powers/Daemons, Or pay a premium for the more powerful stuff. They wouldn't have the "time in" for the most part vs the old legions with chaos.

-Take none/less of legion type of equipment or pay a premium.

 

Traitors Legions:

-Very clear ruleset that distinguishes each legion (Chaos dex 3.5 did this well and I don't believe it can't be duplicated)

-Take old tech for cheap, god specific daemons, and generally more powerful chaotic abilities vs Renegade chapters

-Lex codex equipment(but should have drop pods/dread claws) or take codex equipment at premium.

 

just my humble opinion.

[Kristoff]

While running through the latest Chaos 'dex whine on Warseer, someone (Kjell) came up with a good idea:

 

Daemon Beast masters. They would operate similar to DE Beast masters, but be with Chaos Hounds and Spawn in their group. To keep up with them, the masters would have wings, upgradable to daemonic mounts.

[Decepticon Soundwave]

While running through the latest Chaos 'dex whine on Warseer, someone (Kjell) came up with a good idea:

 

Daemon Beast masters. They would operate similar to DE Beast masters, but be with Chaos Hounds and Spawn in their group. To keep up with them, the masters would have wings, upgradable to daemonic mounts.

 

I think the idea sounds good, but I doubt we would ever get something like that in the new dex just because of how similar it is to something in the dark eldar book. Similar stuff to other marine lists is fine,since on a basic level they all sorta function similarly, but something similar to a race so different from any marine dex is going into their territory. It's the same reason why as DE players we will never get units of Sslyth and Ur-Ghouls, because having actual units of aliens is too similar to the tau.

[hushrong]

Also, side note, I don't want to see a Honsou character. What a friggin *$#@! that guy is.

 

Being a *$#@! gets stuff done!

 

 

And I would add my voice to the desire for the Legion goodness of 3.5. If we had that, I would be more enticed to play.

[Sangneur]

For those of you interested, a post on Blood of Kittens claims that 6th ed. is quite soon, and that not xenos, marines, nor steamroller of the emperor will be present in the starter pack.

 

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/03/11/...ited-time-only/

 

Maybe chaos will follow soon? We're never been too fresh, and with all the advantages grey knights get, we're all the more sour! The only way I can see us balanced against their new book is give daemons powers that make them stronger against psykers.

 

You have my sword.

 

And my chain-axe!

[Emperors Immortals]

What about a big book like the new Orc and Gobbo book?That way it can contain traitor lists, pirate lists and of course the Legion lists (i hope they bring back all the old items myself, even the animosity between Gods was fun).

 

Although to be honest, our best bet is probably expanding the Daemon options in the current C:CSM lists and updating the Lost and the Damned lists to include renegade chapters as well as renegade IG and mutants/rogue psykers and the lovable traitor PDF/Militia forces.

 

Im really praying for a codex; World Eaters, so that we can once again be somethign other then buffoonesque beserkers, even a PDF for each Gods followers from GW woudl be nice.Where the hell is the tactical nouce gone?

[Shas'o R'Vre]

You have my sword.

 

And my chain-axe!

Quoted for all it's LotR goodness.

[Chaos Lord Shamrockius]

When I first saw that this thread was still running, 26 pages of responses on from the start, my first thought was "is this still running?!" but I can see some nicely thought out answers in the last few pages, compared to the rants and regular moans in the early posts...

 

One of my favorites...

 

For me, I think two dexes are needed or a very concise and clear set of rules fluff for Renegades vs Legions of old.

 

 

(Keep in min the following is more from a fluff/"makes sense" and not a gaming one)

 

 

Renegades:

-Take more codex marine type of equipment (speeders, AC's, drop pods). It is just silly to think a renegade chapter loses all equipment everytime and magically acquires legion stuff.

-less powerful chaotic powers/Daemons, Or pay a premium for the more powerful stuff. They wouldn't have the "time in" for the most part vs the old legions with chaos.

-Take none/less of legion type of equipment or pay a premium.

 

Traitors Legions:

-Very clear ruleset that distinguishes each legion (Chaos dex 3.5 did this well and I don't believe it can't be duplicated)

-Take old tech for cheap, god specific daemons, and generally more powerful chaotic abilities vs Renegade chapters

-Lex codex equipment(but should have drop pods/dread claws) or take codex equipment at premium.

 

just my humble opinion.

 

I do like the split codecies... MAKE TWO BOOKS. Or, just a supplemental codex for any renegade legions; cos basically, it would read like a loyalist with chaos twists, and dependant on the need for some clarity as to their chapter origins (BA, SW, DA etc), it would need to read accordingly. How are you going to sort that lot out unless you just say that they were to "use C:SM plus the following wargear/items/troops etc". Which I guess would be another idea.

 

I still think the lack of assistance the over all forces get from our special characters, and the amount of influence they have for 10,000+ year old leaders of thousands or even millions of campaigns, with heavily woven agendas, manipulations and plans.

 

I'd be very interested in any sensible posts that have already been mentiond or any ideas people have on this.

[chaplain belisarius]

if the iron warriors were treated properly (some recognition for their hard work, for example!) they would of stayed loyal..

 

back on topic; I think a codex-legions and a codex-renegades is a fantastic idea! :o

 

I second the bringing back of sacred numbers too (that was an awesome idea!)

[Kristoff]

While running through the latest Chaos 'dex whine on Warseer, someone (Kjell) came up with a good idea:

 

Daemon Beast masters. They would operate similar to DE Beast masters, but be with Chaos Hounds and Spawn in their group. To keep up with them, the masters would have wings, upgradable to daemonic mounts.

 

I think the idea sounds good, but I doubt we would ever get something like that in the new dex just because of how similar it is to something in the dark eldar book. Similar stuff to other marine lists is fine,since on a basic level they all sorta function similarly, but something similar to a race so different from any marine dex is going into their territory. It's the same reason why as DE players we will never get units of Sslyth and Ur-Ghouls, because having actual units of aliens is too similar to the tau.

 

Actually, when I think about it, the Imperium has something SORT of similar with the Sisters of Battle Repentia. The differences being Daemons/Beasts vs wacked-out women with giant chain-saws. It wouldn't be hard to have the fluff being set as these daemon-beasts were once failures (Hounds/small spawn for human, Spawn for Astartes) who have been corralled for this purpose.

[A D-B]

I really think the split codices misses something integral to the Chaos Marines, as was discussed in the last 3 or so pages. The fact is, the book should be good enough to list the choices for whatever Chaos Marine force you want, and should definitely break down the LEGIONS! RENEGADES! divide, which isn't as strong as a lot of gamers seem to think. We need options, not one codex for "Space Marines just turned rogue" (of which there aren't that many, anyway) and one for "Legions" (which don't exist in a recognisable form from 10,000 years ago).

 

We need balance and care, here. Not more division. More realistic and worthwhile options, not even fewer rules and units, split up into two books.

 

And remember, we're the arbiters of our armies to a large degree. You're supposed to know your stuff, and shape your army to a theme (if you're playing to the background). That's not an unreasonable expectation. Outside of tournament play (which is an immeasurably small percentage of the 40K population) the assumption is that armies are loosely based on the background. You don't expect Space Marine players to take 2 Captains or 2 Chaplains in a small force, do you? No. Why would 2 captains be leading 1,000 points of men, etc. etc. Space Marine players are expected to at least have some semblance of knowledge about how the army works in the background. If they choose to deviate, fine. But the same rules apply for us.

 

We need in-universe options, and the information presented intelligently and interestingly in the fluff (like with Space Marines) for us to choose realistically. We don't need a divided army list based on gamer perceptions.

 

I actually despair when I see the LEGIONS! RENEGADES! divide taken to such extremes. You could take twenty Word Bearer or Black Legion or Night Lord warbands, and after 10,000 years in the Eye of Terror, there'd be very few similarities between even 20 warbands that still call themselves members of the same Legion. We need to represent that. We need that type of choice and freedom, if we hope to be true to our own faction's fluff. We need armies that say "I still lay claim to my Legion's legacy, but my forces behave in X, Y and Z ways" just as much as we need armies that say all of the other things Chaos Warlords will declare.

 

Above all, we need army lists and fluff that depict the one faction that - more than any other - fights itself. Chaos Marines' greatest enemy is each other. That's what they do in the Eye and the Maelstrom, after all. Their existence is one of absolute, unremitting, unending brutality. 10,000 years of betrayal and bloodshed. I want to lead an army that breaks into Imperial space with that as its legacy. "10,000 years ago, we built this kingdom. For a hundred centuries, we have waged war amongst ourselves, emerging only for plunder, destroying the weak and the foolish within our own ranks. We are shaped now by our hate, and our hunger to tear down the works of the False God's empire. These are the final days of your Imperium, and we have returned to see it burn."

[caboosebe]

"10,000 years ago, we built this kingdom. For a hundred centuries, we have waged war amongst ourselves, emerging only for plunder, destroying the weak and the foolish within our own ranks. We are shaped now by our hate, and our hunger to tear down the works of the False God's empire. These are the final days of your Imperium, and we have returned to see it burn."

Sorry A D-B, but i'm so going to copy that :eek if you don't mind :P

 

On topic, I must say that I agree with A D-B. Though I am no veteran player, I like to keep my armies of Chaos very fluffy, even if it means making a weaker list. If a codex would come out like discribed above, even the players like me can make lists that have a good time on the field.

The idea of making a codex that's let make an army that say "I still lay claim to my Legion's legacy, but my forces behave in X, Y and Z ways" (as A D-B discribed) will make it easier to create fluffy armies.

Ofcourse, there will always be haters and people who have to break down everything ^_^

But I for one support this idea.

[Captain Idaho]

I really think the split codices misses something integral to the Chaos Marines, as was discussed in the last 3 or so pages. The fact is, the book should be good enough to list the choices for whatever Chaos Marine force you want, and should definitely break down the LEGIONS! RENEGADES! divide, which isn't as strong as a lot of gamers seem to think. We need options, not one codex for "Space Marines just turned rogue" (of which there aren't that many, anyway) and one for "Legions" (which don't exist in a recognisable form from 10,000 years ago).

 

We need balance and care, here. Not more division. More realistic and worthwhile options, not even fewer rules and units, split up into two books.

 

And remember, we're the arbiters of our armies to a large degree. You're supposed to know your stuff, and shape your army to a theme (if you're playing to the background). That's not an unreasonable expectation. Outside of tournament play (which is an immeasurably small percentage of the 40K population) the assumption is that armies are loosely based on the background. You don't expect Space Marine players to take 2 Captains or 2 Chaplains in a small force, do you? No. Why would 2 captains be leading 1,000 points of men, etc. etc. Space Marine players are expected to at least have some semblance of knowledge about how the army works in the background. If they choose to deviate, fine. But the same rules apply for us.

 

We need in-universe options, and the information presented intelligently and interestingly in the fluff (like with Space Marines) for us to choose realistically. We don't need a divided army list based on gamer perceptions.

 

I actually despair when I see the LEGIONS! RENEGADES! divide taken to such extremes. You could take twenty Word Bearer or Black Legion or Night Lord warbands, and after 10,000 years in the Eye of Terror, there'd be very few similarities between even 20 warbands that still call themselves members of the same Legion. We need to represent that. We need that type of choice and freedom, if we hope to be true to our own faction's fluff. We need armies that say "I still lay claim to my Legion's legacy, but my forces behave in X, Y and Z ways" just as much as we need armies that say all of the other things Chaos Warlords will declare.

 

Above all, we need army lists and fluff that depict the one faction that - more than any other - fights itself. Chaos Marines' greatest enemy is each other. That's what they do in the Eye and the Maelstrom, after all. Their existence is one of absolute, unremitting, unending brutality. 10,000 years of betrayal and bloodshed. I want to lead an army that breaks into Imperial space with that as its legacy. "10,000 years ago, we built this kingdom. For a hundred centuries, we have waged war amongst ourselves, emerging only for plunder, destroying the weak and the foolish within our own ranks. We are shaped now by our hate, and our hunger to tear down the works of the False God's empire. These are the final days of your Imperium, and we have returned to see it burn."

 

I actually agree with all of this but I feel most people will be unhappy to accept it. And by most I mean the vocal minority who argue against the concept of warbands or Chaos fighting itself or killing each other. ^_^

 

Problem is I believe there are Chaos Marines players who chose their Chaos force in the same way as "Loyalist" players chose their Space Marine force. Most people think of the Chaos Marines as the mirror opposite of their Loyalist brethren, seeing them as united factions just like the rival Chapters of Raven Guard, Imperial Fists or Blood Angels. People aren't so happy to hear that the Iron Warriors are self serving and operate as a bunch of Warbands who just happen to wear the same colour, because they want identity.

 

But of course that makes what you have said all the more importantly astute. GW do need to bring this aspect of Chaos Marines more to the fore, because people have forgotten it. Chaos Marines aren't just horned Space Marines (horney Space Marines?). Whether people would be happy with the change is a different matter, though if I was honest I would say anyone who didn't embrace this part of the fluff didn't really understand what it meant to be a Chaos Space Marine.

[the jeske]

new unit

size 5-20

ws/bs 2 rest like humans ld 6

either have autoguns [18" str 3 AP-] or 2 ccw . can mix in squad

can take flamer or grande launcher[not RL] for 5 pts[remeber bs 2] . second special or RL for 10+ models .

2 types of leaders an arch heretic that has the option to buff WS or BS for one round [like an IG order] .

dude is ws3/bs 2A ld 7 . can take Icon [so unit could have +1A for example]

 

or a sm leader that is an asp champion [so fist/combi weapon options etc] makes the unit stubborn

 

normal dudes costed at 5pts each . arch heretic 25pts . 25pts for the sm champion too.

 

 

People aren't so happy to hear that the Iron Warriors are self serving and operate as a bunch of Warbands who just happen to wear the same colour, because they want identity.

If there was no structure they would have died out . the eye is not a fun place to be for mortals be they csm or cultists . Cult dude of course could at least try find a heaven on one of the demon worlds . which isnt so obvious , because demons dont think like humans , they dont ally like mortals do . the second they are without an enemy they turn on the next best thing [which would be their mortal ally] . And no matter how strong csm are they cant deal with a demon force inside the warp . Just look at demon world . 3 full companies of violators wiped out.

non cult warbands would even have them . their souls are free game for any demon . in fact the sooner you attack and kill the smaller is the chance that other god demons will do it [and no god/demon wants other god/demon be stronger].

 

the second problem would be gear, ammo , fuel and no I dont think everything can be explained by it is all magic.

How would they resupply ? how would a 100+ warband control a fleet , what would they trade [they cant get slaves because they are too small for anything bad fast raids ] . loyalist offten lose 1/3 of all marines in line durning battles , but they have a base they can recruit they know there is a scout company and reserv ones that will give them more battlebrothers .

A small warband wouldnt be able to trade with bile , because he has a bigger force of his own and would just use the small warband for experiments.

 

SM can demand resupply or refuel because of their ancient pact with the ad mecha . the ad mecha cant say no to them[they can get angry , but they cant say no.] . how would a legion that is broken apart in to small warbands force The Forge to give weapons/ammo/fuel ?

 

And those are just the problems of cult legions would face if they were broken up . undivided legions would be dead . If the word bearers or NL had no strucuter then the warbands would be in a constant treat of being destroyed . a lost battle , a destroyed base [god knows who protects that and how , with csm coming from where?] and they would be dead. What would they do if an engine gets damaged , the imperials either get refitted in one of the imperial shipyards[and yes I know it can sometimes take 2 years or more I read the BFG fluff too]. Where would a NL warband repair its ship , if it had no base and only had one ship ? they wouldnt even be able too loot the parts from the imperials because a lot of the legion ships are heresy era and they are just no longer used .

 

 

And why I do understand that most primarchs dont do much nowadays , I would realy like to see the explanation of how a BL lord going "screw abadon I will take my 200 man and carve a kingdom of my own" or the same for WB where they are known for hunting single dudes that left the legion , not just warbands.

[maverike_prime]

And remember, we're the arbiters of our armies to a large degree. You're supposed to know your stuff, and shape your army to a theme (if you're playing to the background). That's not an unreasonable expectation. Outside of tournament play (which is an immeasurably small percentage of the 40K population) the assumption is that armies are loosely based on the background. You don't expect Space Marine players to take 2 Captains or 2 Chaplains in a small force, do you? No. Why would 2 captains be leading 1,000 points of men, etc. etc. Space Marine players are expected to at least have some semblance of knowledge about how the army works in the background. If they choose to deviate, fine. But the same rules apply for us.

 

Remind me come play where you play A D-B. Around here, the Maxed-HQ approach is all I see. Every Chaos marines army I've in person in the last 2 years have had 2 Deamon princes with wings. Every Space marine Army has always had 2 HQs. Getting smacked in the face by 2 Assault squads lead by a Chaplin with power fists has gotten really old.

[A D-B]

And remember, we're the arbiters of our armies to a large degree. You're supposed to know your stuff, and shape your army to a theme (if you're playing to the background). That's not an unreasonable expectation. Outside of tournament play (which is an immeasurably small percentage of the 40K population) the assumption is that armies are loosely based on the background. You don't expect Space Marine players to take 2 Captains or 2 Chaplains in a small force, do you? No. Why would 2 captains be leading 1,000 points of men, etc. etc. Space Marine players are expected to at least have some semblance of knowledge about how the army works in the background. If they choose to deviate, fine. But the same rules apply for us.

 

Remind me come play where you play A D-B. Around here, the Maxed-HQ approach is all I see. Every Chaos marines army I've in person in the last 2 years have had 2 Deamon princes with wings. Every Space marine Army has always had 2 HQs. Getting smacked in the face by 2 Assault squads lead by a Chaplin with power fists has gotten really old.

 

Oh, I'm sure a lot of people do it. I'd never argue against that. But you wouldn't expect it in an army list that was following the background (because why would 2 captains be leading 3 squads?), and the codices seem to follow the loose assumption that people do read the background in them.

 

Like I said, players are the arbiters of their own armies to a large degree.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Oh, I'm sure a lot of people do it. I'd never argue against that. But you wouldn't expect it in an army list that was following the background (because why would 2 captains be leading 3 squads?), and the codices seem to follow the loose assumption that people do read the background in them.

 

Like I said, players are the arbiters of their own armies to a large degree.

 

It's a matter of players not bothering to be arbiters of their own armies because the Codices allow them to skirt around doing so, and the Codices' designed so that the players are allowed to ignore fluff for the sake of army design. If each HQ type in every Codex was "0-1", it might stave off the worst transgressions, but it won't stop the "SM CPT with Librarian in 1500 points" from showing up, nor will it handle armies who have managed to get HQ types shoehorned into Elite slots, rules that allow them to field more than 2 HQs in a force-organization chart, etc etc. When the design studio is making exceptions forgivable even in the face of gross abuse of fluff in already-allowed army design, then it's pretty much a given that the design studio itself cares nothing for fluff, and that disease manifests in the armies of players.

[maverike_prime]

what I want is to see an army list that is controlled enough to reward players for being fluffy with out saying "You will take 1 Chaos Lord, 3 20-man units of Chaos Marines with 2 melta guns, and 2 predators at 1,0000 points."