What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[TheDarkApostle]

But of course that makes what you have said all the more importantly astute. GW do need to bring this aspect of Chaos Marines more to the fore, because people have forgotten it. Chaos Marines aren't just horned Space Marines (horney Space Marines?). Whether people would be happy with the change is a different matter, though if I was honest I would say anyone who didn't embrace this part of the fluff didn't really understand what it meant to be a Chaos Space Marine.

Yes, we need the return on the Eye of Terror style list of Chaos.

 

An actual return of the countless billions of human dregs that serve as the actual foot-people and living meat-shields of the Chaos Astartes.

 

The 40k equivalent of the Marauders, Trolls and Ogres of the Warriors of Chaos armybook.

 

TDA

[Decepticon Soundwave]

So I finally got a chance to look at codex grey knights. Now I only looked at it for a short while because touching imperial filth made my hands start to burn. Actually so many people still wanted to see the new shiney dex that with me having no intention of ever playing them felt it was selfish to actually read it like i cared.

 

Some observations one therewas a mastery level thing which makes me think back to the old days of the psychic power cards in a way. Maybe it represents how many powers a psyker can do. Two Massive new crap....seriously we overlook this but we could end up getting massive stuff outta this deal. Two again I point to this trend of special characters doingstuff for the armies which has really become a big thing.

[Nicorex]

Well after reading through this discusion I decided to add my two cents.

 

Yes two books would be nice. I dont think it will happen though.

 

What I would like to see happen is this.

All the special characters give you an unlock something, make these guys troops, extra weapons, get cultests etc etc etc. But you also can take generic Lord upgrades that give you the same or at least similar unlocks.

So say you take Lucius, He unlocks Noisemarine havoks, so now you can take 3 squads with 4 blastmasters each or you take your generic Lord with mark o Slaanesh well you can take 1(one) noisemarine havok squad.

This way you can build your unique army to your flavor and not have to play your Lucius aginst every other chaos guys lucius every time you hit the table (You know what I mean).

 

We need to get the free AspChamp bonus for Sacred number agin. Its fluffy.

 

Yes worhless squads should get some updates, Raptors, bikes, Obis should be T5(I lost 2 yesterday to ID laz cannon shots Boo! :) )

 

My biggest wish/want/thing I think we really need, is Vehical options. We need a Razorback like veihcal (I would think it pretty cool if we got a rhino with a Reaper cannon, or twin liked plasma/melta guns or missle launcher(not the havok launcher whitch I like actually but a regular plain old missle launcher). Rhino veichle options like, lose extra gun options, fire point but gain an assault ramp. Lower side armor, become opentopped, gain extra movement( like red ones go fasta +1 inch movement). I would like our Preds to get twinlinked Missle launcher turrets with havok launcher sponsoons.

and so on and so on and so on.......

 

One of the big things I think we lost in 4th was our flexability. These days it seems if you dont take dual lash and 9 Obis you lose. (this statement is not FACT, just observasion from readin battle repots and seeing games the last few years, I am purposly over exagerating). I dont mean on the table flexabilty, we actualy have that I think, but List creation and back story fexability. Right now to me we are just vanila CSM with out a chance to add chocolate and strawberry....

I would like us to get back that flexability. I admit it I loved 3.5, I could make my Lord almost exactly as I though of him in my fluff. I want to be able to do that agin.

 

My 2 cents..

[Son of Rawl]

What I hate most of god damn all with the Grey Knight Codex is that they get better daemon weapons then chaos!!!!

 

Its the greatest DAMN YOU MATT WARD!!! moment in history.

[Minsc]

Just the fact that Grey Knights can wield Daemon Weapons is...sad.

 

Another case of Matt Ward showing the world that he doesn't have a clue about the 40k fluff - he just wants to make OP codexes which will sell GW modell's.

[Smurfalypse]

This has been up forever and i haven't posted on it yet, so here goes.

 

First thing is i want some fluff in the darn thing. The current one feels so half ass'd its insane, this is my primary gripe with it. The lack of story or emotion to this book makes it extremely boring to play. There is no hate, there are no feelings, just sorta "Meh".

 

Second thing is i hope they just end the experiment with codex daemons and combine the two again. More options = more fun/variety.

 

Thats it, those are my gripes. However, those two things are the very soul of the book. It was like they created Frankenstein's monster and forgot to give it arms, then gave it the brain of Ben Stein.

[Hellios]

Just the fact that Grey Knights can wield Daemon Weapons is...sad.

 

Another case of Matt Ward showing the world that he doesn't have a clue about the 40k fluff - he just wants to make OP codexes which will sell GW modell's.

 

Errmmm I might be wrong... but is the Daemon weapon only available to Ordo Mallus Inquisitors... that being the case it might be for people like me who used to run radical inquisitor + daemon hosts :(

[Decepticon Soundwave]

even so why should the grey knights have better deamon weapons then chaos space marines. I mean they have access to deamons and the sorcerors to bind them into metals. While at most inquisitors find or take deamon weapons from their rightful owner and go you know this looks interesting let me use it against my foes.

 

radical inquisitor or not there is no reason he should be weilding better deamon weapons then bill the chaos lord whose been in the warp for 1-10 thousand years.

[Yogi]

"Warband" has become a swear word, in some circles. It doesn't mean what a lot of people think it means.

 

What does it mean? To me it means a company sized force who has buckleys chance of killing anything other then an agri system without huge losses. A tribal group of hopeless angry nomadic warriors who can't even resupply. Do you call Abaddons Black Legion a warband? I would call them a legion even if its a shadow of its former glory.

 

Warbands are mosquitoes. They suck a little blood and try not to get swatted. Tribal organization doesn't work in my mind when dealing with something that needs huge resources to function.

 

But they can raid you might say, well who has space marine gear? Other space marines and Ad mech, both are gonna be costly battles, you would lose heaps of men for some battle damaged scraps.. Making your warband even more pathetic. Warbands lasting longer then a handful of significant battles is unlikely.

 

The coolest part of Chaos to me is legions (ie IMO), Angron and 50k bezerkers pouring out of the eye to destroy the imperium. That's cool.

 

I probably haven't made my point but I like legions, I like that common theme, I like that in the fluff they wield power and are an actual threat. A mongrel mob of chaos marines trying to survive doesn't interest me anywhere near as much.

 

If chaos isn't legions, if its only these hopeless stupid mongrel warbands, then chaos is the biggest joke ever, selling their souls for nothing but the chance to take their next breath.

 

TLDR Legion > Warbands

[Decepticon Soundwave]

I think through black library they are really trying to make us not think warband is a swearword. Make the idea of them "cool." I think the problem with this is the books that talk about warbands as warbands came out a we bit too late. Blood Gorgons and Soul Hunter actually illustrate that warbands are generally anywhere from 40-chapter sized armies of space marines that work together for a common goal. They are under optimal supply or they have access to some limited resupply. They act like lone wolves and every so often someone gathers a bunch of warbands together and theres hell to pay. Like in the case of soul hunter Yabbadabbadoddon.

 

I think the problem is our CSM fluff was really defined by horus heresy books in the matter of legion strength and storm of iron. Which happens to be the pre-emenant chaos space marine book when people talk about CSM literature and background fluff. Basically black library hasn't caught up to the trend of our book or just barely has.

[Hellios]

even so why should the grey knights have better deamon weapons then chaos space marines. I mean they have access to deamons and the sorcerors to bind them into metals. While at most inquisitors find or take deamon weapons from their rightful owner and go you know this looks interesting let me use it against my foes.

 

radical inquisitor or not there is no reason he should be weilding better deamon weapons then bill the chaos lord whose been in the warp for 1-10 thousand years.

 

Are daemon weapons are only bad because on a 1 they splat us... bring back the old leadership mastery tests and we would be fine... and you would see khorne lords and so with the bloodfeeder.

[A D-B]

"Warband" has become a swear word, in some circles. It doesn't mean what a lot of people think it means.

 

What does it mean? To me it means a company sized force who has buckleys chance of killing anything other then an agri system without huge losses. A tribal group of hopeless angry nomadic warriors who can't even resupply. Do you call Abaddons Black Legion a warband? I would call them a legion even if its a shadow of its former glory.

 

Warbands are mosquitoes. They suck a little blood and try not to get swatted. Tribal organization doesn't work in my mind when dealing with something that needs huge resources to function.

 

But they can raid you might say, well who has space marine gear? Other space marines and Ad mech, both are gonna be costly battles, you would lose heaps of men for some battle damaged scraps.. Making your warband even more pathetic. Warbands lasting longer then a handful of significant battles is unlikely.

 

The coolest part of Chaos to me is legions (ie IMO), Angron and 50k bezerkers pouring out of the eye to destroy the imperium. That's cool.

 

I probably haven't made my point but I like legions, I like that common theme, I like that in the fluff they wield power and are an actual threat. A mongrel mob of chaos marines trying to survive doesn't interest me anywhere near as much.

 

If chaos isn't legions, if its only these hopeless stupid mongrel warbands, then chaos is the biggest joke ever, selling their souls for nothing but the chance to take their next breath.

 

TLDR Legion > Warbands

 

This is actually a perfect illustration of the problem, dude. EDIT: I should add, I don't think it's the problem because any of us are dim, I think it's because of the ONE WAY, NO, THE OTHER WAY presentation of our codex history. There's been precious little solid, interesting, enlightening lore on this so far. Just blurbs, and the assumption everyone gets it.

 

"Warband" can mean "Company-sized Chaos army" or "Chapter-sized Chaos army" or something even larger. It doesn't mean "Legions don't exist at all". It's a term to describe a more relevant, day-to-day level of resupply, brotherhood and allegiance that matters to most Chaos Marines, much like a regiment, company, Black Templar crusade, or Marine Chapter, no matter its size. The existence of the word "warband" doesn't mean the themes and legacies of the Legions don't exist - many of the warbands are the ground-level embodiment of those lingering themes. To say warbands and Legions are incompatible is no different from saying companies have nothing to do with their Chapters, or individual Crusades have nothing to do with the Black Templars. They're still Templars, at the end of the day. Chaos, however, has the option of autonomy, and the warbands are largely independent until unified for something worthwhile. It doesn't mean they have no resources, or are no threat. Warbands take entire worlds, entire systems, entire subsectors. They're as varied as can be imagined - literally. Some will be 100 Marines struggling. Others will be 10,000 Marines, commanding entire fleets and worlds, perhaps answering to a higher power, perhaps not. It's a fluid system. The danger lies in taking "warband" to mean something defined and tiny, like a tabletop force, or making broad assumptions about something that can't be defined by the rules of other factions.

 

Yeah, the Legions are hardly the unified bastions of organised military might they once were, and are now divided into groups formed of choice and strength, rather than arbitrary regimental numbers, but if anything, they're now more dangerous than ever. They're not just rebels, anymore. They're Marines who have lived in Hell for 10,000 years. Chaos, like the popular culture perception of the Mongols, is all about the threat of unification. It's brother fighting brother, until they join to fight their cousins. And when they do, the galaxy trembles.

[Lord Ragnarok]

I really think the split codices misses something integral to the Chaos Marines, as was discussed in the last 3 or so pages

 

I agree. A good codex will allow you to do all I stated in one book. But if the author is challenged to complete the task in one book, and if having more will make it easier, I'd rather have 10 books that are great than one crappy book that fails.

[A D-B]

I really think the split codices misses something integral to the Chaos Marines, as was discussed in the last 3 or so pages

 

I agree. A good codex will allow you to do all I stated in one book. But if the author is challenged to complete the task in one book, and if having more will make it easier, I'd rather have 10 books that are great than one crappy book that fails.

 

Wise words, good sir.

[Emperors Immortals]

I really think the split codices misses something integral to the Chaos Marines, as was discussed in the last 3 or so pages

 

I agree. A good codex will allow you to do all I stated in one book. But if the author is challenged to complete the task in one book, and if having more will make it easier, I'd rather have 10 books that are great than one crappy book that fails.

 

Wise words, good sir.

 

 

 

/agree.

 

 

The thing i loved about FW Seige of Vraaks and Badab war books was the fact they were such large narratives that they recognized 2 or even 3 good sized volumes were necessary for the task.

 

That made them monumental works with a real sense of escalation and excitment - and because of that myself and many of my mates are absolutly devoted to them.Ive run the Vraaks campaign about 3 times now, and that takes weeks to just organise it.The thing that keeps us organising, playing and loving the scenarios is the writing - with a strong emotional content and good solid factions its an absolute joy to play again.Im hoping this time the campaign can be won by teh Astartes/IG forces, especially seeing how GK are now updated.

 

My favourite scenario so far is a modified asasult on teh palace, were adding sterngaurd and a BA force this time around, with Chaos having access to 2 shadowswords/superheavies - its going to be great! (hoping pics will be posted this time).

 

Anyway, because of the strength of teh world the writers have created im sure Badab War is going to inspire many Astral Claws players and other forces like Minotaurs Mantis Warriors etc, and that can only be good for the hobby.

[Dryad]

My weekly column is directly tied into this conversation about Warbands. Check it out, I want fans so I can feel cool. Just don't visit if you are someone that is offended by adult language.

 

In 40,000 Years

[the jeske]

Chaos, however, has the option of autonomy, and the warbands are largely independent until unified for something worthwhile.

but that doesnt make no sense . they have as strict hierarchy , the top dude holds everything . the base , supplies , the power to make alliances or to ask gods/demons for boons etc . If someone , lets take the example ahriman here , decides it is time to do something on his own and what he would want to do , then he is lucky if he is left alive or banished .

 

The loyalist have it better the GrandMmaster/GreatWolf/GrandMarshal may hate his cpt to the bone , but as long as the dude doesnt openly go against him he and other imperial forces have no other option , but to resupply give new recruits etc .

 

How should that suppose to look ? If someone does not work under a grand warlord [demon prince , one of the old leaders of legion companies or someone who took their rule] , they his warband is dieing out . csm distrust and hate everyone and they arent very loyal to those left the legion [and doing what you want and not what the top tells you to do is just that]. I envision lots of questions to the warband leader about what he has been doing with his lords troops/ships/gear/ammo/fuel after he comes backs . And that is a problem for wining warbands , imagine a less then a chapter sized warband that loses . It would be wiped out at worse and turned in to thrall at best [ships given command to others rest of the warband sent in first wave of attack or trade to Bile].

 

 

The danger lies in taking "warband" to mean something defined and tiny, like a tabletop force, or making broad assumptions about something that can't be defined by the rules of other factions.

 

but if only the big old legion sized companies make sense to survive then it means there has to be structure else there either wipe each other for resources or we would be in the same state chaos marines were durning the legion wars post heresy. And while csm do fight against each other all the time we do not have a legion war right now.

 

 

Chaos, like the popular culture perception of the Mongols, is all about the threat of unification.

but mongols were neither a treat to old china empire or to the west till they were unified and were given structure. This example would either mean csm have structure or that they are not a treat to the imperium .

[Shas'o R'Vre]

My weekly column is directly tied into this conversation about Warbands.

Nice Blogging Dude (Yeah, I wanted a way to say "Cool Story Bro" without the entire internet thinking I'm being sarcastic), some definite food for thought there. I was never a fan of NM until quite recently, mainly for the reasons you state. Now I want to field them, all I need is an outlet that they can be useful in.

 

Chaos, like the popular culture perception of the Mongols, is all about the threat of unification.

but mongols were neither a treat to old china empire or to the west till they were unified and were given structure. This example would either mean csm have structure or that they are not a treat to the imperium .

If we continue to war amongst ourselves, then we are no threat to the Imperium (as proven time and again by the Black Crusades, though each time the unity bond grows stronger), but if all the Chaos warbands united, then we could crush the Imperium under the heel of our metaphorical boot.

[A D-B]

How should that suppose to look ? If someone does not work under a grand warlord [demon prince , one of the old leaders of legion companies or someone who took their rule] , they his warband is dieing out . csm distrust and hate everyone and they arent very loyal to those left the legion [and doing what you want and not what the top tells you to do is just that]. I envision lots of questions to the warband leader about what he has been doing with his lords troops/ships/gear/ammo/fuel after he comes backs . And that is a problem for wining warbands , imagine a less then a chapter sized warband that loses . It would be wiped out at worse and turned in to thrall at best [ships given command to others rest of the warband sent in first wave of attack or trade to Bile].

 

You're going too far the other way, here. It's not "Legions or tiny, useless warbands". Every possible degree between those two concepts exists, with access to their own industrial worlds, forge worlds, slave caste populations and anything else they could want. Some are tiny and screwed, always needing to raid for resources. Others have their own stellar kingdoms. Black Templar crusades survive alone with their ships and fortress keeps - this is a similar process to that. Chaos warbands are capable of pretty much anything, whether holding barely any territory, or commanding the populations of several systems in their empire. It all comes down to choice.

 

Dude, if you genuinely can't look at what the Eye of Terror, and 10,000 years of raiding, offer - and imagine the myriad possibilities of what different Chaos factions could possess, I don't know what to say, anymore. They have entire empires of resources in there.

 

 

but if only the big old legion sized companies make sense to survive then it means there has to be structure else there either wipe each other for resources or we would be in the same state chaos marines were durning the legion wars post heresy. And while csm do fight against each other all the time we do not have a legion war right now.

 

You're thinking too small, and in defined terms. There's no such thing as a "Legion war", because if Legion Captain Dave said "LET'S DO THIS!", 100 captains would tell him to get lost because they think he's a loser and a terrible leader; 100 would join but 50 of them would be waiting to stab him in the back; and another 200 would be saying "We can't commit to this right now, because we have our own raids, wars, territories and crusades to deal with, but good luck." And still, another 500 would be completely out of contact, because it's an endless realm of Hell, and a massive galaxy beyond that, and these guys can't just dial them on a cell phone.

 

Chaos is vast, the Eye of Terror is vast, and the galaxy is vaster than all. The Legions, fragmented and doing the bidding of individual warlords (like a Templar crusade) are also vast. Think in terms of scale, and 10,000 years of awesome betrayal, crusading and bloodshed in what is literally Hell. Don't think in terms of guys just wearing the same icon on their shoulder pads and therefore it's all close and friendly. You often make a lot of claims about this codex making Chaos into one happy family, and how much that sucks. In truth, you're objecting most of all to the one way that realistically paints them as loathing one another, and only uniting in the grimmest of circumstances. The Legions aren't happy families anymore. There's very little binding one Legion lord to another, let alone to 500 others. That era is over. It was never part of 40K.

 

Before you react to that, let me explain it better.

 

The Eye of Terror is thousands and thousands of worlds, all with different resources, all ruled by agents of Chaos, many of whom are Chaos Marines. Any world imaginable will show up there, at some point. The Chaos Marines spend pretty much all of eternity waging war against each other. They always have. They emerge from the Eye for plunder, raiding, or for specific intentions. They leave it for a million different reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that for 10,000 years, most Chaos Marines have been fighting each other about 90% of the time. It's not a static "I play 3rd Company" style setting. It's an eternity of bloodshed and battle through the layers of Hell, with brotherhoods forming and breaking as the centuries pass. It's very, very difficult to unite Chaos, without strong leaders.

 

But what is it that unites them? Almost nothing. Except...

 

but mongols were neither a treat to old china empire or to the west till they were unified and were given structure. This example would either mean csm have structure or that they are not a treat to the imperium .

 

That's exactly the point. Chaos is the End of All Things, but only if it unites. But Chaos isn't united. That's literally The Point - it's the very reason Abaddon is such an incredibly powerful and inspiring character. He, alone, is the one soul who is managing to unite Chaos. He's the thematic antichrist of 40K, the name whispered in dread across ten thousand worlds, because he is the Uniter.

[Marshal Rohr]

A D-B, I feel like there are things arn't you telling me about the force... I mean Templars.

 

You seem keyed into to things I may be missing. Do explain this vast realm of fleets and keeps?

[Yogi]

This is actually a perfect illustration of the problem, dude. EDIT: I should add, I don't think it's the problem because any of us are dim, I think it's because of the ONE WAY, NO, THE OTHER WAY presentation of our codex history. There's been precious little solid, interesting, enlightening lore on this so far. Just blurbs, and the assumption everyone gets it.

 

"Warband" can mean "Company-sized Chaos army" or "Chapter-sized Chaos army" or something even larger. It doesn't mean "Legions don't exist at all". It's a term to describe a more relevant, day-to-day level of resupply, brotherhood and allegiance that matters to most Chaos Marines, much like a regiment, company, Black Templar crusade, or Marine Chapter, no matter its size. The existence of the word "warband" doesn't mean the themes and legacies of the Legions don't exist - many of the warbands are the ground-level embodiment of those lingering themes. To say warbands and Legions are incompatible is no different from saying companies have nothing to do with their Chapters, or individual Crusades have nothing to do with the Black Templars. They're still Templars, at the end of the day. Chaos, however, has the option of autonomy, and the warbands are largely independent until unified for something worthwhile. It doesn't mean they have no resources, or are no threat. Warbands take entire worlds, entire systems, entire subsectors. They're as varied as can be imagined - literally. Some will be 100 Marines struggling. Others will be 10,000 Marines, commanding entire fleets and worlds, perhaps answering to a higher power, perhaps not. It's a fluid system. The danger lies in taking "warband" to mean something defined and tiny, like a tabletop force, or making broad assumptions about something that can't be defined by the rules of other factions.

 

Yeah, the Legions are hardly the unified bastions of organised military might they once were, and are now divided into groups formed of choice and strength, rather than arbitrary regimental numbers, but if anything, they're now more dangerous than ever. They're not just rebels, anymore. They're Marines who have lived in Hell for 10,000 years. Chaos, like the popular culture perception of the Mongols, is all about the threat of unification. It's brother fighting brother, until they join to fight their cousins. And when they do, the galaxy trembles.

 

First thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

So figuring I am just bad at reading comprehension I went to the current chaos codex, I read the first few pages trying to figure out how I missed what you are saying. I get to page 10 where it starts talking about warbands. "..vary in size form a handful of individuals to mighty hosts that can rival an Imperial Guard Regiment in power." So you know I can read and understand, and this is indeed were my preconceptions come from. An Imperial Guard Regiment is a vague term to begin with as the Imperial Guard codex says they vary a fair bit. But it ain't no Legion. In the fluff a thousand marines should be able to decimate an Imperial Guard Regiment in a short period and be home for lunch (If that's over the top blame every GW writer I have read). So you know at most a warband is a few hundred marines, and that is a big one. So I'm left feeling these poxy insignificant warbands are what chaos is (perhaps always was) now.. I mean Imperial Guard regiments often fight together just to secure a world, so you can't blame me for thinking a chaos warband is a hopeless mosquito.. Can you?

 

But wait I read you article on Loose canon, lets keep reading. The sentence after it says.. "The most successful Champions of Chaos command vast armies of devoted warriors." That's a bit better. That to me is describing legions, what the codex doesn't focus on. It also ISN'T calling these vast armies a warband, they were described previously. You mention some blurbs, and how this divide is some fan misunderstanding, but the codex just plain told me this divide exists. You also say there isn't much lore on what you are talking about. But really this is just part of why warband is a curse word to some people. I'm still left feeling Legions are cool, powerful and interesting and warbands are not.

 

40k is Loose Canon, 40k is Loose Canon.. I'll make it a mantra.

 

So the chaos codex, forget about it, your word is canon then. Warbands cover everything. Cool. I can live with that.

 

But what I was trying to get at in my post is that mongrel warbands, IE a warband with a range of members from recent renegades to Heresy era veterans from a smattering of different Legions/chapters is inferior (IMO) and uninteresting compared to legions or even pure specific legion warbands (codex size definition). And these mongrels is all the codex offers you regarding rules (most of this has to do with the stupid icons rather then marks). That wouldn't be such a big deal, but before we didn't have this problem.

 

Do you know one of the reasons why I like soul hunter? Because its Legion specific. The Night Lords despite being shattered into warbands are pretty pure (regarding members). And many of them still have the Legion mentality that Night Lords are who they are and they will side with a Night Lord over some Black Legion blow hard. If you had written about the Trials of the Mongrel Warband of Arch Traitor Bob (Undivided) his second in command SoundScream the Noise Marine and the trouble making khornate champion Skully... Well I think you could probably make it work, but it wouldn't be as cool as soul hunter. (I don't even really like the night lords WE and AL are my favs)

 

So basically a legion has a distinct theme, colour scheme, flavor and way to fight. That's why I like them. A mongrel warband is a hodgepodge of differences with the only common theme being desperation and the hatred of the Imperium. Can you see why people like me say Legions > (mongrel) Warbands?

 

I'm totally lost.

[A D-B]

A D-B, I feel like there are things arn't you telling me about the force... I mean Templars.

 

You seem keyed into to things I may be missing. Do explain this vast realm of fleets and keeps?

 

I meant it in the sense that players are free to explore the notion that individual crusades maintain their own fleets, resources and individual identities etc.

 

They do have keeps dotted all over the place, too. YOU KNOW THIS.

 

"Build this here. We'll be back. Maybe."

[A D-B]

So basically a legion has a distinct theme, colour scheme, flavor and way to fight. That's why I like them. A mongrel warband is a hodgepodge of differences with the only common theme being desperation and the hatred of the Imperium. Can you see why people like me say Legions > (mongrel) Warbands?

 

Naw. See, that's it (again). A Chapter's contingent parts are companies or crusades. A Legion's component pieces are warbands. That's really it. They're not separate concepts.

 

A warband can be other things, too. But plenty of them aren't. They may not be allies with other warbands in their own Legion, or they may be best chums, but they still derive their core concepts from those old oaths.

 

Some are big into the idea of their past. Some don't care. Some have loads of resources. Some have almost none. Some have territories. Some are just raiders. The key difference is that a warband can be whatever you want it to be, and is backed up in the fluff.

 

It's really not as complicated or as divided as some of us are making out. As I said, though, the codices don't explain the concept well. They allude to it, but give little lore, and that's about it.

[Smurfalypse]

How should that suppose to look ? If someone does not work under a grand warlord [demon prince , one of the old leaders of legion companies or someone who took their rule] , they his warband is dieing out . csm distrust and hate everyone and they arent very loyal to those left the legion [and doing what you want and not what the top tells you to do is just that]. I envision lots of questions to the warband leader about what he has been doing with his lords troops/ships/gear/ammo/fuel after he comes backs . And that is a problem for wining warbands , imagine a less then a chapter sized warband that loses . It would be wiped out at worse and turned in to thrall at best [ships given command to others rest of the warband sent in first wave of attack or trade to Bile].

 

You're going too far the other way, here. It's not "Legions or tiny, useless warbands". Every possible degree between those two concepts exists, with access to their own industrial worlds, forge worlds, slave caste populations and anything else they could want. Some are tiny and screwed, always needing to raid for resources. Others have their own stellar kingdoms. Black Templar crusades survive alone with their ships and fortress keeps - this is a similar process to that. Chaos warbands are capable of pretty much anything, whether holding barely any territory, or commanding the populations of several systems in their empire. It all comes down to choice.

 

Dude, if you genuinely can't look at what the Eye of Terror, and 10,000 years of raiding, offer - and imagine the myriad possibilities of what different Chaos factions could possess, I don't know what to say, anymore. They have entire empires of resources in there.

 

 

but if only the big old legion sized companies make sense to survive then it means there has to be structure else there either wipe each other for resources or we would be in the same state chaos marines were durning the legion wars post heresy. And while csm do fight against each other all the time we do not have a legion war right now.

 

You're thinking too small, and in defined terms. There's no such thing as a "Legion war", because if Legion Captain Dave said "LET'S DO THIS!", 100 captains would tell him to get lost because they think he's a loser and a terrible leader; 100 would join but 50 of them would be waiting to stab him in the back; and another 200 would be saying "We can't commit to this right now, because we have our own raids, wars, territories and crusades to deal with, but good luck." And still, another 500 would be completely out of contact, because it's an endless realm of Hell, and a massive galaxy beyond that, and these guys can't just dial them on a cell phone.

 

Chaos is vast, the Eye of Terror is vast, and the galaxy is vaster than all. The Legions, fragmented and doing the bidding of individual warlords (like a Templar crusade) are also vast. Think in terms of scale, and 10,000 years of awesome betrayal, crusading and bloodshed in what is literally Hell. Don't think in terms of guys just wearing the same icon on their shoulder pads and therefore it's all close and friendly. You often make a lot of claims about this codex making Chaos into one happy family, and how much that sucks. In truth, you're objecting most of all to the one way that realistically paints them as loathing one another, and only uniting in the grimmest of circumstances. The Legions aren't happy families anymore. There's very little binding one Legion lord to another, let alone to 500 others. That era is over. It was never part of 40K.

 

Before you react to that, let me explain it better.

 

The Eye of Terror is thousands and thousands of worlds, all with different resources, all ruled by agents of Chaos, many of whom are Chaos Marines. Any world imaginable will show up there, at some point. The Chaos Marines spend pretty much all of eternity waging war against each other. They always have. They emerge from the Eye for plunder, raiding, or for specific intentions. They leave it for a million different reasons, but that doesn't change the fact that for 10,000 years, most Chaos Marines have been fighting each other about 90% of the time. It's not a static "I play 3rd Company" style setting. It's an eternity of bloodshed and battle through the layers of Hell, with brotherhoods forming and breaking as the centuries pass. It's very, very difficult to unite Chaos, without strong leaders.

 

But what is it that unites them? Almost nothing. Except...

 

but mongols were neither a treat to old china empire or to the west till they were unified and were given structure. This example would either mean csm have structure or that they are not a treat to the imperium .

 

That's exactly the point. Chaos is the End of All Things, but only if it unites. But Chaos isn't united. That's literally The Point - it's the very reason Abaddon is such an incredibly powerful and inspiring character. He, alone, is the one soul who is managing to unite Chaos. He's the thematic antichrist of 40K, the name whispered in dread across ten thousand worlds, because he is the Uniter.

 

You kinda hit the nail on the head in a way. People want to play or idealize something that is big or threatening toward the Imperium of Man, not a "Warband" that poses no threat to anything significant. When people build their Word Bearer armies, we do it with the idea that this is a small part of a greater whole, not an individual who *plays by nobody's rules but his own* At least that is how i envision my personal army lists, or when i read chaos fluff.

 

You do make a good point on the issue that the legions and factions very much loath each other, but the fact is that the rules have taken away the animosity that used to be in the codex's and made it so everyone is indeed (rule wise) one big happy family. Rules cant always represent fluff, that should be accepted and understood but to label something a Warband because they cannot get along long enough to unite for any real purpose, then turn around and have your army list represent that very same coalition, well this makes me think of Happy Tree Friends or something equally contradictive.

 

Think i confused myself again...Imma go take an asprin!

[A D-B]

You kinda hit the nail on the head in a way. People want to play or idealize something that is big or threatening toward the Imperium of Man, not a "Warband" that poses no threat to anything significant. When people build their Word Bearer armies, we do it with the idea that this is a small part of a greater whole, not an individual who *plays by nobody's rules but his own* At least that is how i envision my personal army lists, or when i read chaos fluff.

 

Totally. But they can be that, too. They're still Word Bearers. They still follow that creed, and swear allegiance to it. Lord Zhufor's Skulltakers are still World Eaters, etc. It's just a matter of remembering that every warband is different. "Legion rules" and "Renegade rules" are an artificial divide that represents Chaos very poorly, and would reinforce false assumptions, as well as limiting our choices.

 

This has actually exhausted me. I think I'm, like, done. No harm, no foul.