What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[Marshal Rohr]

A D-B, I feel like there are things arn't you telling me about the force... I mean Templars.

 

You seem keyed into to things I may be missing. Do explain this vast realm of fleets and keeps?

 

I meant it in the sense that players are free to explore the notion that individual crusades maintain their own fleets, resources and individual identities etc.

 

They do have keeps dotted all over the place, too. YOU KNOW THIS.

 

"Build this here. We'll be back. Maybe."

Well I knew that. You just made it sound like a more integrated web of power and logistics.

 

 

Which is one of my many 'fan-theories'. Alongside secret ties to the High Lords and Mechanicus.

 

I wish you wrote more Black Templar novels. I mean what can Grey Knights offer that Black Templars can't? :)

[subtlebrush]

Totally. But they can be that, too. They're still Word Bearers. They still follow that creed, and swear allegiance to it. Lord Zhufor's Skulltakers are still World Eaters, etc. It's just a matter of remembering that every warband is different. "Legion rules" and "Renegade rules" are an artificial divide that represents Chaos very poorly, and would reinforce false assumptions, as well as limiting our choices.

 

After reading through all of your replies so far and I can say, I completely understand. Everyone is so tied up in an idea that, "Chaos should be divided into Renegades and Legions" and not seeing the whole picture and I have no idea where that comes from. Perhaps from peoples own take on the idea of Chaos Warbands and such but your wording has cleared a lot up for me. I can now see how the overall picture of Chaos has been warped due to poor coverage in the Codex and I beleive the newest Codex has tried to give the idea you've stated but of course has failed miserably in its execution. It seems that if and when the next Codex is released its going to need a very large overhaul in every department.

 

Not to go off topic but as your the master of Chaos :) what are your thoughts on Abaddon and the Black Crusades? Many people call him a failure, the guy who failed to take Terra 13 times but I don't think his intentions have been to go right for the throat and take Terra. It would make more sense that he would use the idea of it to unite the warbands for a Black Crusade but I like to think hes more or less gathering for the "Big Push" at a later time. Kind of testing the ropes a bit and maybe gathering certain items and such (like the Blackstone fortresses). A quick search on Lexicanum tells that that is probably his intentions but I just wondered what you thought. It seems the Codex and those before it have been vague on the Black Crusades, they seem to only focus on the 13th and barely at that.

 

Mr.Malevolent

[Marshal Rohr]

Abaddon is the antichrist dude. No substitutions. The 13th Black Crusade broke the seal, the Imperium is screwed now.

[Smurfalypse]

Totally. But they can be that, too. They're still Word Bearers. They still follow that creed, and swear allegiance to it. Lord Zhufor's Skulltakers are still World Eaters, etc. It's just a matter of remembering that every warband is different. "Legion rules" and "Renegade rules" are an artificial divide that represents Chaos very poorly, and would reinforce false assumptions, as well as limiting our choices.

 

After reading through all of your replies so far and I can say, I completely understand. Everyone is so tied up in an idea that, "Chaos should be divided into Renegades and Legions" and not seeing the whole picture and I have no idea where that comes from. Perhaps from peoples own take on the idea of Chaos Warbands and such but your wording has cleared a lot up for me. I can now see how the overall picture of Chaos has been warped due to poor coverage in the Codex and I beleive the newest Codex has tried to give the idea you've stated but of course has failed miserably in its execution. It seems that if and when the next Codex is released its going to need a very large overhaul in every department.

 

Not to go off topic but as your the master of Chaos :) what are your thoughts on Abaddon and the Black Crusades? Many people call him a failure, the guy who failed to take Terra 13 times but I don't think his intentions have been to go right for the throat and take Terra. It would make more sense that he would use the idea of it to unite the warbands for a Black Crusade but I like to think hes more or less gathering for the "Big Push" at a later time. Kind of testing the ropes a bit and maybe gathering certain items and such (like the Blackstone fortresses). A quick search on Lexicanum tells that that is probably his intentions but I just wondered what you thought. It seems the Codex and those before it have been vague on the Black Crusades, they seem to only focus on the 13th and barely at that.

 

Mr.Malevolent

 

 

I agree, if the current Chaos Codex had been more fun or whatever it is lacking, the issue wouldn't even be up for debate.

[Legatus]

An example...

 

-----------------------------------------------

THE IRON WARRIORS, M31

 

- Perturabo, Primarch

 

- Commander A + Grand Company (~1000 Iron Warriors)

 

- Commander B + Grand Company

 

- Commander C + Grand Company

 

- Commander D + Grand Company

 

- Commander E + Grand Company

 

- Commander F + Grand Company

 

- Commander G + Grand Company

 

- Commander H + Grand Company

 

- Commander I + Grand Company

 

- Commander J + Grand Company

 

- Commander K + Grand Company

 

- Commander L + Grand Company

 

 

Every Grand Company operates under order of Perturabo.

-----------------------------------------------

 

 

-----------------------------------------------

THE IRON WARRIORS, M41

 

- Perturabo (In theory. he does not talk much these days.)

 

- Lord A + 430 Iron Warriors, 30 Obliterators, 50 World Eaters Berserkers

 

- Lord B + 160 Iron Warriors, 20 Raptors, 10 Obilterators, 25 Death Guard Plague Marines

 

- Lord C + 10 Iron Warriors, 170 Astral Hounds*, 10 Obliterators, 20 Raptors, 20 Night Lords, 10 World Eaters Berserkers

(* Lord C's forces were almost completely wiped out at some point, but he defeated the Commander of a renegade force of the traitorous Astral Hounds Chapter, whose warriors then swore loyalty to him.)

 

- Lord D + 370 Iron Warriors, 20 Obliterators, 40 Emperor's Children, 10 Thousand Sons

 

- Lord E* + 888 Iron Warriors, 40 Obliterators, 20 Raptors, 60 World Eaters Berserker, 20 Death Guard Plague Marines, 40 Night Lords

(* Lord E had a long feud with Lord C and was responsible for the demise of his forces. The two still hate each other's guts, but should the Primarch or the Warmaster call they will grudgingly fight for the same cause.)

 

- Lord F + 50 Iron Warriors*, 20 Obliterators

(* Even though Lord F only commands very few Marines, he is not to be underestimated, as most of his men are hardened Veterans and have a great number of Tactical Dreadnought Armour. Lord F also makes extensive use of armed slaves and cultists, which are not listed here, more so than usual for Iron Warrior forces, to distract the enemy while his Terminators deliver the killing blow.)

- ... etc.

 

 

Every Warband is operating independently, each Lord pursuing his own agendas. Only on occasions will more than one or two Iron Warriors Warbands work together, and only on rare occasions, when the Primarch or the Warmaster should call, will one see a hand full or more Warbands work together.

-----------------------------------------------

 

 

Disclaimer 1: The list above is based in the 12,000 strong Iron Warriors Legion mentioned in the Iron Warriors Index Astartes. In case of the larger Legion numbers, simply multiply teh number of Grand Companies and/or Warbands by ten.

 

Disclaimer 2: This is only an example, and not based on any description on how the different Iron Warrior warbands are organised.

[subtlebrush]

That's a perfect example Legatus. For so long I was somehow under the idea that you would never "cross-pollinate" (for lack of a better word) a Legion-warband like Iron Warriors with Death Guard or Berzerkers. After really thinking it over and looking back I can see how we could all look at it that way as all the IA's and Codex fluff made it seem as though all Legions were of the attitude "We are [insert Legion] and we do not ally with [insert Legion] or even [insert Legion] we are purely [insert Legion] that is it, no matter what". The current Codex tries to break this down but in a confusing way and like I've said before falls on its face.

 

And yeah Smurfalypse, the current Codex is somewhat blah and uninteresting. My black heart will always love Chaos Space Marines more then Loyalist and I use the current Codex just because its all we have. I said many a pages ago, that the current Codex lacks so much in the way of keeping someone interested. The artwork is blah (though some of David Gallagher's artwork is amazing, these however lacked so much to be desired), the fluff is just complete blah, and of course the list is just...ugh. Reading it all those years ago when it was first released, it didn't give me the "oh man I need to make an army" feeling I get with say any of the newer books, it had no wow factor and it was only due to my love of Chaos that I went through with buying the book and "holding out for a new one". It just lacks in everything and in all honesty it feels much more like a "get you by" PDF list then an actual Codex. But hey that's just my take on it....

 

Abaddon is the antichrist dude. No substitutions. The 13th Black Crusade broke the seal, the Imperium is screwed now.

 

 

Haha that's my thoughts exactly. I have to say out of all the characters presented in the Codex, hell the entirety of the WH40k universe, Abbadon has to be my favorite. C'mon hes in control of his :( man. He plots Terra's destruction and has no qualms about getting up front and personal with anyone (see Soul Hunter) He could have well been a daemon prince oh 13 times over but he's waiting for that day he sets his boot on the Emperor's head as the planet burns around him and Chaos spills out of the Eye. Hell his weapon rends time and space AND he ripped off his fathers Talon and spat on his dead body calling him a fool and a weakling. So bad :P .

 

Mr.Malevolent

[caboosebe]

Remember that the Chaos 4th Edition Codex was a test codex to see if 'simple' codeci worked better with people, and it failed and so GW went back to more complex, relative fluff-based codeci. (RELATIVE!!!!!)

So yeah, the Fluff in the current codex sucks, but it has a reason.

 

 

Also, I can't understand why people are so fixed on the word warband. It just that, a word. The meaning of it can be diffrent as A D-B stated. It's a name for a group of Chaos Space Marines fighting together under the same creed, and it can range from a few, to thousands and more. The Legions have broken into warbands, that will still unite may the situation call for it. It nothing diffrent like all those space marine chapters. All those Ultramarine founding Chapters will come back if their would be a threat to Macragge, even though they are not 'Ultramarine' in name, but in blood.

So if Angron would say: Let's have a head chopping party, almost all World Eaters, who have broken into diffrent warbands, calling themselfs World Eaters OR something else, would come together, look dirty at one another, maybe chop of a head, give Khorne a smile, and then go out to kill whatever Angron wants them to kill, together. And afterwards break up again.

 

And about the codex saying that a warband "..vary in size form a handful of individuals to mighty hosts that can rival an Imperial Guard Regiment in power." and then making calculations on how big an Imperial Guard Regiment is, is just taking it too seriously. They just say: They are big and powerfull. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's like saying: How far is it? - Well as far as from here to the moon. Meaning, far far away, not 384,403 km/238,857 miles

[Legatus]

For so long I was somehow under the idea that you would never "cross-pollinate" (for lack of a better word) a Legion-warband like Iron Warriors with Death Guard or Berzerkers. After really thinking it over and looking back I can see how we could all look at it that way as all the IA's and Codex fluff made it seem as though all Legions were of the attitude "We are [insert Legion] and we do not ally with [insert Legion] or even [insert Legion] we are purely [insert Legion] that is it, no matter what".

On careless reading it might look that way, as the Index Astartes articles and the 3.5 Codex were often phrased such as how "the Iron Warriors do such and such". But even in the Index Astartes articles and the 3.5 Codex were warbands mentioned. The current Codex goes back more to the old description from 2nd Edition ("after years of infighting the Legions of old have been broken up into smaller warbands..."). But that is where I started, so I feel quite comfortable with that notion.

 

And if one reads the Index Astartes description of how the Legions are described to be organised in there, it kinda describes them that way as well.

 

From the IAs and the 3.5 Codex:

 

IA Emperor's Children: "According to the Inquisition's Hades oracle, the Emperor's Children quickly exhausted their supply of slaves and playthings, and began to prey upon the only other victims available: the slaves and servants of the other Traitor Legions. The resulting wars were terrible and bloody, but there could be only one eventual result, and finally the Legion of the Emperor's Children was shattered. (...)

Most became Noise Marines, twisted creatures addicted to fury and tempest, only satisfied by the roar of explosions and the screams of the dying. (...) Despite their insanity, they remain vicious, savage warriors, delighting in the destruction they cause in battle, willing to serve any master in return for fresh slaves upon which to practice their devotion to Slaanesh."

 

IA Iron Warriors*: "Originally each Grand Company would have had a similar organisation totalling approximately a thousand Space Marines, but now they vary in size enormeously. (...)

Like many of the Traitor Legions, their current organisation is completely non standard."

 

IA Night Lords: "Night Lords are exceptionally versatile in their use of the forces of Chaos, employing the hell-spawned powers of each of the major Chaos deities with equal favour. It is just as likely that the Night Lords will be seen fighting alongside a group of foul Plague Marines as it is the warriors of the Thousand Sons."

 

IA World Eaters: "After the Night of Madness on the daemon world of Skalathrax, when a champion named Khârn turned on his fellow World Eaters, the Legion tore itself apart in a day long slaughter, becoming nothing more than roving bands of renegades, endlessly questing for battle and death. Such bands vary enormeously in size from single Champions, small squads to company sized forces capable of untold destruction. The champions who lead these marauders will fight alongside almost any other Chaos Lord who is gathering his forces, asking for nothing more than the chance to spill blood in the name of Khorne."

 

IA Death Guard*: "With Mortarion elevated to daemonhood, his hand upon the Legion became more remote and the Death Guard became broken up through space and time into smaller units. (...) The daemon prince Mortarion remains master of the Death Guard even after their fall, orchestrating their movements unseen from his bubonic throne."

 

IA Thousand Sons*: "Magnus placed great faith in his subordinates, believing he had taught them well, that their powerful sorceries gave them the necessary tools to function independently of him. (...) This command experience has stood them in good stead as independent leaders of warbands since the Heresy, to the Imperium's considerable and continuing misfortune."

 

IA Black Legion*: "After the death of Horus, proper structure within the squads and companies disintegrated, and their later dispersal in various spacecraft further fragmented the Legion. Now warbands of virtually any size and composition can be found following Black Legion Champions - ranking officiers from older times or newly emerged leaders who have won favour through their violent deeds. At times, such warbands rally together under the banner of a greater Champion or even Abaddon himself, for a major raid or incursion into the hated Imperium. However, loyalty to differing Chaos gods often leads to internal politics and conflict."

 

IA Word Bearers*: "Alone amongst the Legions of Chaos, the Word Bearers maintain a fascimile of their former discipline and faith. (...) The various warbands of the Word Bearers, known as Hosts, are scattered throughout the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom, each led by a mighty champion known as a Dark Apostle. (...)

Each Host varies enormeously in size, ranging from the equivalent of a Space Marine Battle Company to a rare few that almost equal a Chapter in size. The organisational make-up of each Host differs wildly as well, and can change depending on the whims of the Dark Apostle that leads it."

 

IA Alpha Legion: "Tactics confirmed as having been employed by the Alpha Legion include (...) [long list] (...) and alliance with anti-imperial military forces including other Traitor Legions and aliens."

 

3.5 Codex Chaos Space Marines, p. 2, Introduction: "Armies can be built to represent just one of these Legions or an alliance of the members of several, bound together by the magnetism of an especially powerful lord."

 

 

*While the Index Astartes articles of the IW, DG, TS, BL and WB are not specifically mentioning them operating with forces of the other Legions, (the articles of the EC, NL, WE and AL do say that, and the NL article also mentions them working with TS and DG) their articles all describe how the strict organisation of the former Legions has broken down and they are now roaming the Eye of Terror/the Galaxy in forces of varying sizes and with wildly non-standard organisation.

[subtlebrush]

So if Angron would say: Let's have a head chopping party, almost all World Eaters, who have broken into diffrent warbands, calling themselfs World Eaters OR something else, would come together, look dirty at one another, maybe chop of a head, give Khorne a smile, and then go out to kill whatever Angron wants them to kill, together. And afterwards break up again.

 

I think that is the best description of the World Eaters that I've ever read. That right there describes the idea behind the whole "warband" discussion perfectly. Oh and I now realize the timing of the current Codex release was in an age of GW which I like to call "The Age of Oversimplification". Codex Dark Angels is also a perfect example of this as well. I just have the feeling that GW should've put more thought into the idea/execution of simplifying lists (and their releases) then truly releasing it on the "hope it works" ideal they seemed to be using at the time. Good job pointing that out though.

 

On careless reading it might look that way, as the Index Astartes articles and the 3.5 Codex were often phrased such as how "the Iron Warriors do such and such". But even in the Index Astartes articles and the 3.5 Codex were warbands mentioned. The current Codex goes back more to the old description from 2nd Edition ("after years of infighting the Legions of old have been broken up into smaller warbands..."). But that is where I started, so I feel quite comfortable with that notion.

 

 

I don't think I was necessarily "careless" in my reading of the articles, more like carefully strategic memory loss :tu: I'm sorry if my wording made it seem like that :o

 

Mr.Malevolent

[TheDarkApostle]

IA Word Bearers*: "Alone amongst the Legions of Chaos, the Word Bearers maintain a fascimile of their former discipline and faith."

This is what really dragged me in to the Word Bearers in the first place all those years ago. The one and only Legion able to maintain discipline and an actual structure after the Heresy while the others succumbed to infighting and lost leaders. The one of only Legion still unified in purpose after the failed sacking of Terra - the full dedication to the spreading of the faith of Chaos and the enlightening of the galaxy of it's glory.

 

And let me tell you this, you don't spread your faith by stabbing your missionaries in the back like some egoistical Black Legionnaire out for only his own gain, because that means one less missionary that can carry out the Word, and that would be utterly counterproductive. Not really something of a Legion still holding true to the same military disciple of the Great Crusade.

 

TDA

[Warsmith Aznable]

Ultimately I think the beef with the codex is lack of viable options, and that's what needs to change. If the units in the codex could each be played without being "ineffective point sinks", then players could tailor a theme to suit whatever renegade, Legion or apostate they felt like, and GW wouldn't even have to write 50 pages of Legion specific rules and characters. Currently what we've got is an army being scaled down to a miniature Black Legion in drag. Rewrite the rules to make each unit effective (stat and points wise), then add a just a couple new rules to make list building more flexible, like "this rule makes X count as troops choice" and suddenly Rule of Cool is the deciding factor instead of obsessing over math. I hate math.

[Legatus]

IA Word Bearers*: "Alone amongst the Legions of Chaos, the Word Bearers maintain a fascimile of their former discipline and faith."

This is what really dragged me in to the Word Bearers in the first place all those years ago. The one and only Legion able to maintain discipline and an actual structure after the Heresy while the others succumbed to infighting and lost leaders. The one of only Legion still unified in purpose after the failed sacking of Terra - the full dedication to the spreading of the faith of Chaos and the enlightening of the galaxy of it's glory.

I think that is a bit of a misunderstanding of that text. The second sentence (which I cut because it does not deal with warband organisation) puts that into perspective:

 

"Alone amongst the Legions of Chaos, the Word Bearers maintain a fascimile of their former discipline and faith. That faith has been corrupted beyond all recognition and their discipline now serves darker masters, but their organisation bears a twisted resemblance to their former glory."

 

But the article then goes on to describe how the different hosts "vary enormeously in size" and how their organisational make-up "differs wildly" and depends on the whim of the Dark Apostle leading the Host, often being changed completely on moments notice for no apparent reason.

 

No, what that first passage was refering to was not that the Word Bearers are still a united Legion and are strictly organised in a military fashion. What that passage was refering to is that the Word Bearers still are very devoted and spiritual.

 

Loyal Space Marines are "warrior monks" in space, praying to the emperor and dedicating themselves to their cause. Chaos Marines on the other hands are marauders and murderers. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Death Guard Marines or Thousand Sons sorceres have no "monk" qualities. The Word Bearers on the other hand are all about devotion to a higher power. They maintain the "faith and discipline" that the other Legions have lost. The Word Bearers are still monk-like. But they are evil death cult monks, constantly looking for sacrifices to their dark gods.

Before the Word Beraers go to battle, they will gather in the ritual hall and pray to the dark gods, much like the loyalists would gather in the chapel and listen to the sermons of their Chaplain. In battle, the Word Bearers are incited by the Dark Apostle, just like the loyalist Chaplains are inspiring their brothers.

 

 

"maintain a fascimile of their former discipline and faith" --> monk-like, spiritual, (occultism), compare: loyalist Chaplains/Dark Apostle

 

It does not mean that the Word Bearers are still a united and working Legion where the other traitor forces aren't.

[TheDarkApostle]

I'm going to break your reply up a but to more easily respond.

 

I think that is a bit of a misunderstanding of that text. The second sentence (which I cut because it does not deal with warband organisation) puts that into perspective:

 

"Alone amongst the Legions of Chaos, the Word Bearers maintain a fascimile of their former discipline and faith. That faith has been corrupted beyond all recognition and their discipline now serves darker masters, but their organisation bears a twisted resemblance to their former glory."

This doesn't actually change anything at all. All is says is that their organisation have changed a bit from how they operated before turning on the Imperium. I'd assume using vast millions/billions of traitor guard / mutants / other assorted dregs as living meatshields as detailed in the short notice somewhere in the IA article, (I seem to have misplaced mine so I can't give an exact location of it, but it's the one about the officer telling of the Word Bearer onslaught with a few armored giants in Red herding the horde of humans into the guns of the Imperial Guard, but no matter the cruelty shown by their masters every single one of the traitors died with a smile on their face blah blah blah), as well as unleashing was hordes of Daemons as terror/shock troops to throw the enemy off. Something they for obvious reasons couldn't do while still part of the Imperium without attracting some MAJOR attention.

 

But the article then goes on to describe how the different hosts "vary enormeously in size" and how their organisational make-up "differs wildly" and depends on the whim of the Dark Apostle leading the Host, often being changed completely on moments notice for no apparent reason.

 

No, what that first passage was refering to was not that the Word Bearers are still a united Legion and are strictly organised in a military fashion. What that passage was refering to is that the Word Bearers still are very devoted and spiritual.

 

You are greatly missing the difference of organization versus military discipline.

 

A basic analogy to what you are saying is that an engineer company and a ranger company can't be just as military disciplined because their organisational setup is different. Which just doesn't make sense.

 

The difference to the "problem" at hand being that unlike real-life armies who can't just wake up one day and decide that instead of a ranger company it's going to be a MBT company the next morning.

 

Where as a Dark Apostle very well can. Of course it's going to take some time to get the changes done because there are limits to how much you can snap your fingers and magically make it happen.

 

Also you have to remember that Space Marines rarely bring everything they can to a battlefield for a number of reasons, lack of munitions, something is in need of repair, lack of personel to effectivly use all that stuff, practical need of it on the particular battlefield etc etc.

 

The Word Bearer way of it being that sometimes a Dark Apostle may opt to not use tanks at all even if it might have been the more tactical sounds just because he had a vision the morning he woke up. He might still have those tanks stashed away in his ship but he won't use them because of the vision.

 

Loyal Space Marines are "warrior monks" in space, praying to the emperor and dedicating themselves to their cause. Chaos Marines on the other hands are marauders and murderers. Iron Warriors, Night Lords, Death Guard Marines or Thousand Sons sorceres have no "monk" qualities. The Word Bearers on the other hand are all about devotion to a higher power. They maintain the "faith and discipline" that the other Legions have lost. The Word Bearers are still monk-like. But they are evil death cult monks, constantly looking for sacrifices to their dark gods.

Before the Word Beraers go to battle, they will gather in the ritual hall and pray to the dark gods, much like the loyalists would gather in the chapel and listen to the sermons of their Chaplain. In battle, the Word Bearers are incited by the Dark Apostle, just like the loyalist Chaplains are inspiring their brothers.

 

 

"maintain a fascimile of their former discipline and faith" --> monk-like, spiritual, (occultism), compare: loyalist Chaplains/Dark Apostle

 

It does not mean that the Word Bearers are still a united and working Legion where the other traitor forces aren't.

And now honestly it starts to feel like you are contradicting yourself.

 

Facsimile of their former faith: Well, their faith have been shifted from the Emperor to the Chaos Pantheon instead. Instead of worshiping A you are worshiping B.

 

Facsimile of their former discipline:

 

dis·ci·pline (ds-pln)

n.

1. Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially training that produces moral or mental improvement.

2. Controlled behavior resulting from disciplinary training; self-control.

3.

a. Control obtained by enforcing compliance or order.

b. A systematic method to obtain obedience: a military discipline.

c. A state of order based on submission to rules and authority: a teacher who demanded discipline in the classroom.

4. Punishment intended to correct or train.

5. A set of rules or methods, as those regulating the practice of a church or monastic order.

6. A branch of knowledge or teaching.

 

In its original sense, discipline referred to systematic instruction given to a disciples to train them as students in a craft or trade, or to follow a particular code of conduct or "order".

...

 

To me that pretty much says that they would have the same military discipline as during the Great Crusade.

 

Though I must admit it feels like we are drifting away from the original intention of this specific topic and instead onto something perhaps more suited for the Word Bearer thread?

 

TDA

[Legatus]

You are greatly missing the difference of organization versus military discipline.

I don't think military discipline is even the topic. Discipline is a monk quality as well, which is why I was using that term, and which is what that second sentence I quoted aludes to.

 

"Alone amongst the Legions of Chaos, the Word Bearers maintain a fascimile of their former discipline and faith."

 

One of the traits of the Word Bearers known to almost anyone is that they alone still have Chaplains and that they are very devoted to the dark gods. But then the next sentence even further qualifies:

 

"That faith has been corrupted beyond all recognition and their discipline now serves darker masters (...)"

 

It first mentions their faith and how it has been altered, and then speaks of disciplin in serving dark masters. Why do you then think that this refers to military discipline, and not the discipline of a devoted follower of a deity or creed?

 

Spending four hours of a day praying to the dark gods takes discipline. Not retreating in battle and instead listen to the sermons of the Dark Apostle and press forward even under heavy fire takes discipline. But this is not "military discipline". This is religious discipline. Be dedicated to your deities, meditate on them, fight where they want you to fight.

 

 

Word Bearers are very devoted and dedicated to a higher cause, much like loyalists are (and the loyal Legions were) but the other warbands are not.

 

Word Bearers still have "Chaplains", like loyalists do (and the loyal Legions did) but the other warbands do not.

 

Why then do you think that the description of how they "maintain a fascimile of their former discipline and faith" would refer to maintaining a legion like structure, and not the spiritual and devotional elements the loyalists Legions had, loyalist Chapter still have, but other traitors do not bother with?

 

 

Though I must admit it feels like we are drifting away from the original intention of this specific topic and instead onto something perhaps more suited for the Word Bearer thread?

I dunno. Then we would derail that thread instead. I think the question whether or not the Word Bearers are still somewhat a coherent Legion is marginally relevant to the question of whether or not a Codex Chaos Space Marines should represent "warbands" or specific Legion armies.

[Decepticon Soundwave]

An example...

 

-----------------------------------------------

THE IRON WARRIORS, M31

 

- Perturabo, Primarch

 

- Commander A + Grand Company (~1000 Iron Warriors)

 

- Commander B + Grand Company

 

- Commander C + Grand Company

 

- Commander D + Grand Company

 

- Commander E + Grand Company

 

- Commander F + Grand Company

 

- Commander G + Grand Company

 

- Commander H + Grand Company

 

- Commander I + Grand Company

 

- Commander J + Grand Company

 

- Commander K + Grand Company

 

- Commander L + Grand Company

 

 

Every Grand Company operates under order of Perturabo.

-----------------------------------------------

 

 

-----------------------------------------------

THE IRON WARRIORS, M41

 

- Perturabo (In theory. he does not talk much these days.)

 

- Lord A + 430 Iron Warriors, 30 Obliterators, 50 World Eaters Berserkers

 

- Lord B + 160 Iron Warriors, 20 Raptors, 10 Obilterators, 25 Death Guard Plague Marines

 

- Lord C + 10 Iron Warriors, 170 Astral Hounds*, 10 Obliterators, 20 Raptors, 20 Night Lords, 10 World Eaters Berserkers

(* Lord C's forces were almost completely wiped out at some point, but he defeated the Commander of a renegade force of the traitorous Astral Hounds Chapter, whose warriors then swore loyalty to him.)

 

- Lord D + 370 Iron Warriors, 20 Obliterators, 40 Emperor's Children, 10 Thousand Sons

 

- Lord E* + 888 Iron Warriors, 40 Obliterators, 20 Raptors, 60 World Eaters Berserker, 20 Death Guard Plague Marines, 40 Night Lords

(* Lord E had a long feud with Lord C and was responsible for the demise of his forces. The two still hate each other's guts, but should the Primarch or the Warmaster call they will grudgingly fight for the same cause.)

 

- Lord F + 50 Iron Warriors*, 20 Obliterators

(* Even though Lord F only commands very few Marines, he is not to be underestimated, as most of his men are hardened Veterans and have a great number of Tactical Dreadnought Armour. Lord F also makes extensive use of armed slaves and cultists, which are not listed here, more so than usual for Iron Warrior forces, to distract the enemy while his Terminators deliver the killing blow.)

- ... etc.

 

 

Every Warband is operating independently, each Lord pursuing his own agendas. Only on occasions will more than one or two Iron Warriors Warbands work together, and only on rare occasions, when the Primarch or the Warmaster should call, will one see a hand full or more Warbands work together.

-----------------------------------------------

 

 

Disclaimer 1: The list above is based in the 12,000 strong Iron Warriors Legion mentioned in the Iron Warriors Index Astartes. In case of the larger Legion numbers, simply multiply teh number of Grand Companies and/or Warbands by ten.

 

Disclaimer 2: This is only an example, and not based on any description on how the different Iron Warrior warbands are organised.

 

 

In my sig thats the great and powerful warband of D'aggoth the Archfiend. My deamon prince lord of my Night Lords andother random legions and groups and it is forever growing. Why because there is also the delegation of power. Every lord and sorceror under him is a lieutenant which can be tasked with a job. Warbands are not always 5 guys on some ship wrecking imperials which is why i agree with this post.

[Commissar Joe]

You kinda hit the nail on the head in a way. People want to play or idealize something that is big or threatening toward the Imperium of Man, not a "Warband" that poses no threat to anything significant. When people build their Word Bearer armies, we do it with the idea that this is a small part of a greater whole, not an individual who *plays by nobody's rules but his own* At least that is how i envision my personal army lists, or when i read chaos fluff.

 

Totally. But they can be that, too. They're still Word Bearers. They still follow that creed, and swear allegiance to it. Lord Zhufor's Skulltakers are still World Eaters, etc. It's just a matter of remembering that every warband is different. "Legion rules" and "Renegade rules" are an artificial divide that represents Chaos very poorly, and would reinforce false assumptions, as well as limiting our choices.

 

This has actually exhausted me. I think I'm, like, done. No harm, no foul.

 

I can understand why you're exhausted mate but don't give up the fight! What you've been saying in this thread gives me hope for the future direction of CSM in fiction and on the table! Chaos should be about possibilities. Ultimately, even in a 3,000 point game, there's not many marines on the table (in the greater scheme of the 40k universe), so it's absolutlely possible that a legion only army can exist (even if it's unlikely). People can just think of it as being the core or last remnants of a mighty legion!

For me at least, the idea of a warband made up of 10,000 years old warriors side by side with newer traitor marines excites me from a fluff and gameplay perspective. Imagine the group dynamic amongst such a warband!

So, to get back on topic, I'd like a new codex to include options for both. Also, some new models, especially raptors and more competitive rules to go along with it (across the board).

[Warsmith Aznable]

I can understand why you're exhausted mate but don't give up the fight! What you've been saying in this thread gives me hope for the future direction of CSM in fiction and on the table!

 

Maybe what we really need to see in the next Codex: Chaos Space Marines is a writing credit for A D-B...

[Kristoff]

Another random thought, what if the model being used as the gateway for the summoning of a Greater Daemon were given a chance to survive the process depending on his experience in dealing with the warp, or "rank". For example, an Aspiring Champion would have almost no chance (save he stays on a 6+), but say a Lieutenant (lesser HQ) would survive on a 4+, and a Sorcerer and Lord could survive on a 3+. Daemon Princes still wouldn't be allowed as they would never summon a competitor to come in through them.

 

Thoughts, comments, rude remarks?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I can understand why you're exhausted mate but don't give up the fight! What you've been saying in this thread gives me hope for the future direction of CSM in fiction and on the table!

 

Maybe what we really need to see in the next Codex: Chaos Space Marines is a writing credit for A D-B...

 

I'd like to think he's got a strong enough sense of self-preservation to stay as far from the development team as possible, or at least would avoid volunteering for the job without a pen name, total anonymity, and a very fat paycheck in advance. ^_^

[Yogi]

So basically a legion has a distinct theme, colour scheme, flavor and way to fight. That's why I like them. A mongrel warband is a hodgepodge of differences with the only common theme being desperation and the hatred of the Imperium. Can you see why people like me say Legions > (mongrel) Warbands?

 

Naw. See, that's it (again). A Chapter's contingent parts are companies or crusades. A Legion's component pieces are warbands. That's really it. They're not separate concepts.

 

A warband can be other things, too. But plenty of them aren't. They may not be allies with other warbands in their own Legion, or they may be best chums, but they still derive their core concepts from those old oaths.

 

Some are big into the idea of their past. Some don't care. Some have loads of resources. Some have almost none. Some have territories. Some are just raiders. The key difference is that a warband can be whatever you want it to be, and is backed up in the fluff.

 

It's really not as complicated or as divided as some of us are making out. As I said, though, the codices don't explain the concept well. They allude to it, but give little lore, and that's about it.

 

I apologise for taking so long to understand you. But I finally I get what you are saying. Component pieces.

 

If removing this divide is so important, then it needs to be spelt out in the next C:CSM.

[the jeske]

Why then do you think that the description of how they "maintain a fascimile of their former discipline and faith" would refer to maintaining a legion like structure, and not the spiritual and devotional elements the loyalists Legions had, loyalist Chapter still have, but other traitors do not bother with?

because the legions before the heresy didnt have a religous structure ?

Also I dont think the cult legions do not bother with worship , if they didnt do it they would be punished by their gods . marks always worked like that.

 

+ religious in w40k is different from the one we have . when our soldiers pray before battle the chance of getting instructions on how to kill the enemy are rather slim . In the case of w40k , if you are a lord you are sure to get those .

 

as the constant changing of size goes . Wouldnt that be proof of structure ? they change because they are ordered by someone/something to change . Orders means strucuture.

 

as the IA article goes

IW Like many of the Traitor Legions, their current organisation is completely non standard."

the standard being what ? sm chapters , sm companies pre heresy , some other chaos legion ?

It only tells us that the size and arment is different . Which is kind of a obvious considering the legion wars and 10k years in the warp . It says nothing about command structure .

 

The daemon prince Mortarion remains master of the Death Guard even after their fall, orchestrating their movements unseen from his bubonic throne."

which means even if it doesnt act he still orders them and plans what to do for other warbands . ergo command structure is still there.

 

The organisational make-up of each Host differs wildly as well, and can change depending on the whims of the Dark Apostle that leads it

and their "will" is what the gods tell them to do , so the easier contact with gods [lorgar, erebus etc] the more intel they get how to work and what to do . Structure still there.

 

You're going too far the other way, here. It's not "Legions or tiny, useless warbands". Every possible degree between those two concepts exists, with access to their own industrial worlds, forge worlds, slave caste populations and anything else they could want

10k years of constant war . sometimes more , sometimes less considering time works different in the eye . If a small idependent warband would try to hold on a demon forge world , ship yard etc and somehow managed to hold it against demons that attack every living thing in the eye that is not marked like them , then other larger warbands would have taken it back . Just to get goods , the armor the slaves etc , because they are stronger . Only big structure legion with huge infrastructure make sense in the eye.

I mean lets say there is a lord with 200-300 sm a whole demon world with all the supplies he can have . If he is not part of a structure of a legion and doesnt have the protection of it . What would stop a lets say old heresy sized legion company from taking the planet over ?

See am not saying that a csm can not work in a 200-300 sized warband at some point [the word bearers in demon world send out a 5 or 6 man kill team and the violators there are3 companies strong and also get wiped out]. But the whole idependent and do what they wont and only join up for black crusade class stuff does make sense to me .

If csm worked in an as hostile enviroment at such small size they would be wiped out .

 

To make a real life example . Mob groups do range from 20+ to huge many thousand sized structures . But even the smallest ones are always part of some sort of organization [well we use this word for it , I hope the translation makes sense in english] . independed ones that try to have a whore house or two , or steal some cars , even if they pay the police , the customs and/or military still get wiped out . I seen it countless of times. Turf , income , structure is everything for them . IMO it is the same with csm , if a legion would be just a name [because that what it would be without a structure and chain of command] then it would die out . And that is what more or less is happening with the WE or EC in the fluff.

[caboosebe]

Yes, there is structure, but also a constant danger of being overthrown.

While loyalist have structure, and a commander doesn't have to worry that his underlings will kill him, Chaos Space Marines do.

So it is a constant shift of structure.

Commander has the power and there is 'order'

Commander gets killed by underling, and there is internal fighting for command

New commander has the power and there is 'order' again

New commander gets killed by underling, and there is internal fighting for command

etc etc

 

Some people focus on the fact that there are times of 'structure', others focus on the times when there isn't.

There is a thin line here, and that's what you need to see. There is no 'hard' -There is structure- or -There is no structure-.

GW always made things very vage, so people can see what they WANT to see, and make their own stories. Why? Because who doesn't love an army that he himself sees as the ideal army for himself. If they start with cold hard facts, only a small amount of people will like it, but if you're cunning enough to make it so vage that people see what they like to see, even if an other sees it diffrent, now that's the stuff that sells.

 

On the Word Bearers issue:

Do remember that First Heretic (by A D-B ) said that the Word Bearers have an error in their geneseed

wich makes them overly loyal to their primarch. So if Erebus would say: Lorgar said it, even if he didn't, the rest would follow

 

[Legatus]

because the legions before the heresy didnt have a religous structure ?

They did have Chaplains...

 

 

Also I dont think the cult legions do not bother with worship

But when the other cult Legions do it, they do it to get something out of it. The Word Bearers are devoted for devotion's sake. They pray to teh dark gods because that is a big part of their identity. And tehy have formalised this devotion and made it characteristic for the warriors of their Legion.

 

 

as the constant changing of size goes . Wouldnt that be proof of structure ? they change because they are ordered by someone/something to change . Orders means strucuture.

Proof of structure and hierarchy within a Host, but at the same time an indication for a lack of a higher structure or hierarchy beyond that individual Host. If the varying armies or warbands of a Legion "vary enormeously in size" and "are non standard in organisation" then that indicates a lack of a greater control and a lack of a general agenda for them. In the IA for the Death Guard and the Black Legion it even uses term susch as "the Legion became broken up" or was "fragmented" before explaining that their forces are now as different and non-standard as described.

 

 

as the IA article goes

IW Like many of the Traitor Legions, their current organisation is completely non standard."

the standard being what ?

A discernible standard for how the forces of this Legion are organised? The Iron Warriors article even aludes to a "before/after" comparison:

 

"Originally each Grand Company would have had a similar organisation totalling approximately a thousand Space Marines, but now they vary enormeously in size. (...) Like many of the Traitor legions, their current organisation is completely non-standard."

 

If the Legion was still under a higher control and was united and working towards a common agenda you would expect a more discernible structure for the different Warbands or Grand Companies.

 

 

The daemon prince Mortarion remains master of the Death Guard even after their fall, orchestrating their movements unseen from his bubonic throne."

which means even if it doesnt act he still orders them and plans what to do for other warbands . ergo command structure is still there

That description in the Index Astartes Death Guard is a bit odd, as it is preceded a few paragraphs earlier by the description of how Mortarions "hand upon the Legion became more remote and the Death Guard became broken up" as he ascended to daemonhood. So the statement above has to be evaluated carefully. Since he is said to be "orchestrating their movements unseen" it might indicate that the Plague Marines have ulterior motives (like, I dunno, spreading plagues...) even if they are fighting for other Lords.

 

It also indicates that the Death Guard Marines still are somewhat loyal to their Primarch, even if they are not really led by him anymore. Kind of similar to the World Eaters or the Emperor's Children. They are definitely and positively shattered and under no united command, but when their Primarch calls they will still answer.

 

 

The organisational make-up of each Host differs wildly as well, and can change depending on the whims of the Dark Apostle that leads it

and their "will" is what the gods tell them to do , so the easier contact with gods [lorgar, erebus etc] the more intel they get how to work and what to do . Structure still there.

That would assume that "the gods" have a clear plan for the Word Bearers Legion, and that it is not just one particular god at a time that has a plan for one individual Dark Apostle at one time. The Word Bearers may worship Chaos as a pantheon of deities, but as we all know, that is not how the Chaos gods actually work.

 

 

Only big structure legion with huge infrastructure make sense in the eye.

I mean lets say there is a lord with 200-300 sm a whole demon world with all the supplies he can have . If he is not part of a structure of a legion and doesnt have the protection of it . What would stop a lets say old heresy sized legion company from taking the planet over ?

See am not saying that a csm can not work in a 200-300 sized warband at some point [the word bearers in demon world send out a 5 or 6 man kill team and the violators there are3 companies strong and also get wiped out]. But the whole idependent and do what they wont and only join up for black crusade class stuff does make sense to me .

If csm worked in an as hostile enviroment at such small size they would be wiped out .

If a warband is relatively small, and a larger warband comes along that wants what the smaller warband is having, the larger warband will take it. It is that simple. And if the larger warband becomes too bothersome, then several smaller warbands will temporarily ally in order to take it down. Also simple.

Also, since resources and manpower are valuable, a larger warband will not allways seek to wipe out a smaller warband. More often they will slay the Champion and then absorb the remaining warriors into their own warband. Large warbands may shatter from time to time due to uprising Champions wanting their own glory, or the Lord being defeated by the afore mentioned alliance of smaller warbands, in which case there is no single victor to absorb the warriors of the large warband.

The economics of such factions are not too complicated. Think waring crime syndicates.

[TheDarkApostle]

First: Chaplains back then for non-Word Bearers had absolutely NOTHING to do with religion.

 

Mayhap did you forget that the Emperor was a BIG no no on matters religious?

 

Chaplains were there to at first monitor the Librarians so they could be put down easily if they went out of control, and secondly and mostly after the ruling of Nikea to monitor the moral wellbeing of the Legions.

 

Also you are focusing a bit much on specific words in the IA articles and forget one huge point in them Legatus:

 

They are written from an Imperial viewpoint.

 

Every instance of something "standard" are very likely to be a reference to something Imperial.

 

TDA

[Legatus]

Mayhap did you forget that the Emperor was a BIG no no on matters religious?

I don't think that had been established at the time the Index Astartes articles were written.

 

 

Also you are focusing a bit much on specific words in the IA articles and forget one huge point in them Legatus:

 

They are written from an Imperial viewpoint.

 

Every instance of something "standard" are very likely to be a reference to something Imperial.

But the passage for the Iron Warriors organisation is even introduced by explaining how they had previously been organised uniformly, and it then goes on to explain, as it does in almost every traitor Index Astartes, that their forces currently vary great in size and are very different. That does not sound like "they are not organised like us", it sounds more like "there is no discernible structure between the individual warbands".