What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I concur with Legatus in this; barring the Word Bearers, whose Hosts and Dark Apostles still toe the line for the Council of Sicarus, the fractitious nature of the Legions makes any attempt to truly quantify what makes a "warband" contained within it to be purely speculative in size and composition, which means it's going to be variable from warband to warband. I'd perceived it had always been that way, with various Lords and Champions forging their own fighting forces and going off to do their own thing until something bigger and badder gave them different orders. I certainly integrated that concept into my warband's fluff; it calls itself a Grand Company of the Black Legion, but it's really just a large agglomeration of forces of myriad nature unified under the banner of a single Chaos Lord who happens to be Black Legion. If/when the time comes for Abaddon to muster the Legion for one of his Black Crusades or what have you, that's when it falls under the Eye of Horus, but until then, it's its own entity with its own organization, TACSOP, and MTOE that probably resembles nothing like any other formation purporting itself to being a Grand Company.

 

Call me crazy, but I thought that's kind of how they all worked, really, except for those clever religious zealots and the die-hards that still ran their shops like the Legions of old. Lord of the Night gave me enough to work with to show the huge dichotomy in organization in the Night Lords, and it doesn't take a novel to figure out that the Alpha Legion never functioned in the same way as the other Legions did when it came to being organized, a trait we see in the Loyalists with the Raven Guard.

[TheDarkApostle]

Mayhap did you forget that the Emperor was a BIG no no on matters religious?

I don't think that had been established at the time the Index Astartes articles were written.

I'm quite sure it was.

Also you are focusing a bit much on specific words in the IA articles and forget one huge point in them Legatus:

 

They are written from an Imperial viewpoint.

 

Every instance of something "standard" are very likely to be a reference to something Imperial.

But the passage for the Iron Warriors organisation is even introduced by explaining how they had previously been organised uniformly, and it then goes on to explain, as it does in almost every traitor Index Astartes, that their forces currently vary great in size and are very different. That does not sound like "they are not organised like us", it sounds more like "there is no discernible structure between the individual warbands".

We're talking about the Word Bearers here and not the Iron Warriors.

 

The Iron Warriors ain't my forte as I have limited knowledge about them.

 

TDA

[Legatus]

Mayhap did you forget that the Emperor was a BIG no no on matters religious?

I don't think that had been established at the time the Index Astartes articles were written.

I'm quite sure it was.

According to the IA description of the Chaplains (and there are likely other sources) the beliefs of the Space Marines predate the formation of the Ecclesiarchy. The differences between the Chapter's old traditions and beliefs and the official religion of the ecclesiarchy is well documented as well, and it were these traditions and beliefs the Chaplais were and still are responsible for.

 

 

Also you are focusing a bit much on specific words in the IA articles and forget one huge point in them Legatus:

 

They are written from an Imperial viewpoint.

 

Every instance of something "standard" are very likely to be a reference to something Imperial.

 

But the passage for the Iron Warriors organisation is even introduced by explaining how they had previously been organised uniformly, and it then goes on to explain, as it does in almost every traitor Index Astartes, that their forces currently vary great in size and are very different. That does not sound like "they are not organised like us", it sounds more like "there is no discernible structure between the individual warbands".

We're talking about the Word Bearers here and not the Iron Warriors.

Sorry, I got conufsed because the" non standard" description is coming from the Index Astartes Iron Warriors.

 

According to the Index Astartes for the Word Bearers the organisation of a Host is up entirely to the whim of the Dark Apostle leading it. There does not seem to be a higher agenda for their structure or their actions.

(Well, technically every Dark Apostle has a "higher agenda" based on whatever teh gods are expecting of him personally. But there apparently is no uniform plan for the entire Word Bearers Legion.)

[TheDarkApostle]

I think I speak for many when I say that there's a difference in tradition and religion. And "belief" for the record can mean alot of different things as well.

 

And as always it can be hard to see a pattern or higher reason when you don't have the whole picture. Something we never have been given. Sometimes you can get a hunch from something you see but you can't explicitly explain or prove it until more information is present.

 

Something GW so far have been very good on omitting.

 

TDA

[Legatus]

I think I speak for many when I say that there's a difference in tradition and religion.

And I don't think you necessarily need a religion to keep monk like traditions and discipline.

[Prot]

Abaddon is the antichrist dude. No substitutions. The 13th Black Crusade broke the seal, the Imperium is screwed now.

 

That's a very strong thought, and well put. I respect the idea but I don't quite agree with it. Horus was THE antichrist. Abaddon never had the charisma to sell a used Ford only driven by an old lady on weekends. Horus? He could turn brother on brother, son against father.

 

Abaddon was given, or perhaps took that mantle and since then I've always compared him to the drunken uncle who comes out of his house in the warp once a year at Christmas. You know it's going to happen, he's going to come over, drink too much, wave his fists with empty threats against the government, and tell you what's wrong with today's youth. Inevitably he will eat too much, pass out on your couch, and really.... no harm done. Just expect the same thing next year.

 

Sure Horus, and then Abaddon were a Catalyst for the current state of the Imperium. I mean, the big E is essentially done. But I think even without Abaddon it's quite safe to say the Imperium would be in the mess it's in currently. It's a gigantic blob of an economy stuck in an unending pit of a stagnant government, with an old broken system that will never change. Abe or no Abe..... still I'm sure he'll be dropping by next Christmas for sure. (hide your Turkey, and the booze)

[Prot]

but that doesnt make no sense . they have as strict hierarchy , the top dude holds everything . the base , supplies , the power to make alliances or to ask gods/demons for boons etc . If someone , lets take the example ahriman here , decides it is time to do something on his own and what he would want to do , then he is lucky if he is left alive or banished .

 

I think you are looking at the scenario in a VERY limited and 'real world' perspective. I think the Warp is a MAAAAASSSIVE place where there is a lot of power divided a lot of ways. You seem to have the perspective of some sort of Mogadishu Warlords fighting over a truck filled with explosives.

 

 

The danger lies in taking "warband" to mean something defined and tiny, like a tabletop force, or making broad assumptions about something that can't be defined by the rules of other factions.

 

I do agree with whomever originally said this. There is no "true" definition of "war band". But I think due to old fairy tales and adventure type stuff, we're lead to think of stuff like 'The King's Warband' and smaller scale stuff like that. I think the problem again lays in the groundwork put out by Gav-dex. I never thought of Chaos as lowly pirate warbands 'til Gav-dex.

 

I suppose you guys are right in that we should realize the vast potential for the term 'war band' and not limit it by pre-conceived ideas.

[A D-B]

Abaddon is the antichrist dude. No substitutions. The 13th Black Crusade broke the seal, the Imperium is screwed now.

 

That's a very strong thought, and well put. I respect the idea but I don't quite agree with it. Horus was THE antichrist. Abaddon never had the charisma to sell a used Ford only driven by an old lady on weekends. Horus? He could turn brother on brother, son against father.

 

Abaddon was given, or perhaps took that mantle and since then I've always compared him to the drunken uncle who comes out of his house in the warp once a year at Christmas. You know it's going to happen, he's going to come over, drink too much, wave his fists with empty threats against the government, and tell you what's wrong with today's youth. Inevitably he will eat too much, pass out on your couch, and really.... no harm done. Just expect the same thing next year.

 

Sure Horus, and then Abaddon were a Catalyst for the current state of the Imperium. I mean, the big E is essentially done. But I think even without Abaddon it's quite safe to say the Imperium would be in the mess it's in currently. It's a gigantic blob of an economy stuck in an unending pit of a stagnant government, with an old broken system that will never change. Abe or no Abe..... still I'm sure he'll be dropping by next Christmas for sure. (hide your Turkey, and the booze)

 

A lot of Abaddon's "weak" position is that he's presented so badly in the background. We're told he's mega and vital, and there are ways to infer it, but we're not shown anything concrete or credible; what we are shown is usually a bit thin and anemic, with little detail.

 

30K, such as it is, doesn't really exist in terms of 40K - it's part of the mythos, but its characters are on a different scale and coloured in a different tone to the 40K of the current setting. Horus occupied the same thematic position as Satan, the Great, First Evil, but he's a past/distant/irrelevant threat. Abaddon is the thematic Antichrist, the Death of the Imperium, the evil that will succeed where Horus failed.

 

At least, that's what we're told, and that's the intention. The execution has been sorely lacking, which I suspect (hope?) the next codex rectifies.

[caboosebe]

Mayhap did you forget that the Emperor was a BIG no no on matters religious?

I don't think that had been established at the time the Index Astartes articles were written.

Well, then you have to admit that your reasoning of chaplains, is outdated aswell :P

Fluff changes all the time, it's hard to keep track of it, but it's even harder if people say that the old stuff has more meaning then the new stuff ;)

Warhammer 40K fluff is vage at best, don't try to see it as: 'because it is written here, it must be so!'

GW said it themselfs: all written stuff on warhammer 40k is viewed as canon, even that wich they write in codex. GW themselves don't say this is the cold hard truth, and everybody must live by it ;)

If you want legions to be united, then it's true. If you don't want them to be united then it's true.

If you want global structure in Chaos, then it's true. If you want group level structure, then it's true.

 

All GW does is set global speculations.

There were 20 legions, 2 lost, 9 'turned', Horus died, Emperor 'died', legions fled to eye of terror.

From that point on, the table top joins in, and GW wants people to make up their own truths and stories, to keep it intresting.

At the same time, this is what causes discussions on 'what is the truth'. If you read the novels, then you have an other view of things then one who doesn't.

Even the diffrence between writers writing on the same character is diffrent, so who is the one who is right? Well, the one you like most, but remember that somebody else may like the other one more.

[Legatus]

Mayhap did you forget that the Emperor was a BIG no no on matters religious?

I don't think that had been established at the time the Index Astartes articles were written.

Well, then you have to admit that your reasoning of chaplains, is outdated aswell smile.gif

Since my point was that the Index Astartes article of the Word Bearers was refering to spiritual/religous discipline and not military discipline when it describes how "Alone amongst the Legions of Chaos, the Word Bearers maintain a facsimile of their former discipline and faith. That faith has been corrupted beyond all recognition and their discipline now serves darker masters, but their organisation bears a twisted resemblance to their former glory." then that point stands even if the purpose of Chaplains has later been changed.

 

But I don't even think the role of Chaplains has been changed in the recent background at all. From what I can see in the Collected Visions description, it was the role of the Chaplains to maintain the "spiritual wellbeing" of the Legion.

 

And then, during the Heresy, all Traitor Legions except the Word Bearers kill off their Chaplains. --> Only the Word Bearers "maintain a facsimile of their former discipline and faith."

[Prot]

A lot of Abaddon's "weak" position is that he's presented so badly in the background. We're told he's mega and vital, and there are ways to infer it, but we're not shown anything concrete or credible; what we are shown is usually a bit thin and anemic, with little detail.

 

30K, such as it is, doesn't really exist in terms of 40K - it's part of the mythos, but its characters are on a different scale and coloured in a different tone to the 40K of the current setting. Horus occupied the same thematic position as Satan, the Great, First Evil, but he's a past/distant/irrelevant threat. Abaddon is the thematic Antichrist, the Death of the Imperium, the evil that will succeed where Horus failed.

 

At least, that's what we're told, and that's the intention. The execution has been sorely lacking, which I suspect (hope?) the next codex rectifies.

 

I do agree he needs a personality lift, and deserves a lot more attention in the new codex.

 

I think of how he's been portrayed and his personality does appear hollow.... I think of everything I've read about him since I started playing this game.... every article, every BL book... he's always been just a big bully with a very bad top-knot. They guy who always stole your lunch money on recess and didn't know what to do with it.

 

The only insight I can recall that ever stuck with me about Abe was when he was 'officially' against the Imperium. I remember some member of the Mournival (whatever it was called) questioning him... and his response was good. It was simple, but it was real. I won't write it out... I'm sure you remember.

 

But other than that moment I feel even Huron has a more believable personality. He seems to have a real agenda and I can seem him operating as -smoothly-, and politically as he needs to in order to achieve his agenda... or squash you like a bug.

 

Abe not so much.... again just really an intergalactic bully with a big meaty power axe.

 

But then again most of the Chaos Legions have been painted with a similar brush. How many hair pulling years did I read DeathGuard were space zombies, barely capable of holing a bolter without passing gas? Or Khorne berzerkers that just wanted to rip their fingernails off for something to do between meals? All of the Legions have this really hollow thing going.

 

(Again probably why I gravitated to Iron Warriors.... I can identify with their 'issue de jour'.) Most Legions are just a flavour of evil, but no real substance.

 

One thing though.... I have tried, very hard, to imagine an all encompassing codex and it is hard to imagine. So I look to other things the studio have done for examples.... the Marine Codex is terrible IMHO. It is weak now.... and very vanilla. They stripped traits off and the ability to do something unique, or Legion specific is almost non-existent. It is a 5th ed codex though... which frightens me.

 

On the other hand, look at IG and Orks. Wow... the different stuff you can do is amazing. You can portray a huge variety of war-theme. So on that hand I can see it possibly working..... it would have to be huuuuge though. Huuuuge. And the characters would have to be pretty deep.

 

Anything would be better than what we have now, but I want a lot more than 'better'. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if I quit the game if another 3-coiler codex came out. I've basically just bounced around from army to army since Gav-dex.

[caboosebe]

But I don't even think the role of Chaplains has been changed in the recent background at all. From what I can see in the Collected Visions description, it was the role of the Chaplains to maintain the "spiritual wellbeing" of the Legion.

Spritual Wellbeing can be defined in many ways. You see it as religion and faith in the God - Emperor. It can also be viewed as faith in what you are doing. Pre-heresy, the Chaplains looked out for members who would go: Do we really have to fight? Can't we just get along?

And then the Chaplain would go: No, no, my boy, you got it all wrong, come here to sit on my lap.

The Emperor, is a man, not a god, a man. But ooooh, what a man he is.

He will unite all of man kind, and kill all the badies. And why do we kill badies? Because they are bad!

 

And then the marine would go: oh, now I understand, I will keep killing things that aren't Imperium.

 

The Chaplains were about trust and faith in the Imperium, not in the Emperor as a God. That's why all the legions killed their chaplains.

[maverike_prime]

Not to go off topic but as your the master of Chaos :) what are your thoughts on Abaddon and the Black Crusades? Many people call him a failure, the guy who failed to take Terra 13 times but I don't think his intentions have been to go right for the throat and take Terra. It would make more sense that he would use the idea of it to unite the warbands for a Black Crusade but I like to think hes more or less gathering for the "Big Push" at a later time. Kind of testing the ropes a bit and maybe gathering certain items and such (like the Blackstone fortresses). A quick search on Lexicanum tells that that is probably his intentions but I just wondered what you thought. It seems the Codex and those before it have been vague on the Black Crusades, they seem to only focus on the 13th and barely at that.

 

Mr.Malevolent

 

Call Abs a failure if you wish. He is, and I'll wager will always will be, unique in the mythos of 40k for the reason that he, and he alone has managed to unite the greater whole of the traitor legions, and the herectics across the greater portion of a quadrant, and he did it not once but 13 times. No other entity has managed to accomplish that, not even Horus.

 

Personally, I agree that Abs isnt going for the throat. My theory is that Abs wants to destroy the Imperium in it's entirity. He doesn't want to simply nuke Terra out of existence, or destroy just the golden throne. He wants to burn everything every conceived of under the dominance of the imperium. With an empire the size of the Imperium, that takes times and resources. Already the Imperium's resources are being stretched to their breaking points. With the Tyranids encroaching across the the western rim, the Necrons rising, the Tau continually expanding, and the Orks and Tyranids creating a giant super-breeder by way of combat with whatever comes out of going to be worse then anything that went in, the Imperium is facing galexy spliting wars on multiple fronts. Abs has to know this. Hell, I'd be willing to entertain theories that Abs is somehow involved in some of those other wars solely for the purpose of depleating the Imperiums resources.

[Hellios]

Call Abs a failure if you wish. He is, and I'll wager will always will be, unique in the mythos of 40k for the reason that he, and he alone has managed to unite the greater whole of the traitor legions, and the herectics across the greater portion of a quadrant, and he did it not once but 13 times. No other entity has managed to accomplish that, not even Horus.

 

13 times are you sure? I know there have been 13 black crusades... but did he lead them all...?

[maverike_prime]

Call Abs a failure if you wish. He is, and I'll wager will always will be, unique in the mythos of 40k for the reason that he, and he alone has managed to unite the greater whole of the traitor legions, and the herectics across the greater portion of a quadrant, and he did it not once but 13 times. No other entity has managed to accomplish that, not even Horus.

 

13 times are you sure? I know there have been 13 black crusades... but did he lead them all...?

 

even if he didn't it only changes the number, not the accomplishment. Abs has been consistently portrayed as the one warlord/general/whatever that has the ability to unit the different factions of chaos across a single campaign. Even Horus didn't accomplish that.

[Kristoff]

Call Abs a failure if you wish. He is, and I'll wager will always will be, unique in the mythos of 40k for the reason that he, and he alone has managed to unite the greater whole of the traitor legions, and the herectics across the greater portion of a quadrant, and he did it not once but 13 times. No other entity has managed to accomplish that, not even Horus.

 

13 times are you sure? I know there have been 13 black crusades... but did he lead them all...?

 

even if he didn't it only changes the number, not the accomplishment. Abs has been consistently portrayed as the one warlord/general/whatever that has the ability to unit the different factions of chaos across a single campaign. Even Horus didn't accomplish that.

 

Add in the fact that if he was a true failure, he would have been a Spawn a LOOOOOOONG time ago. Since he's not Abaddon the Spawn, he has been succesfull in all the endeavors the pantheon have required of him. You can't equivocate with those 4 and pass the blame on to someone else. You become a Spawn even before you have a chance to point the finger at someone else.

 

We just don't know what his specific objectives always were.

[caboosebe]

There were more then 13 black crusades, but 13 have been led by Abe

[Abyssel]

Add in the fact that if he was a true failure, he would have been a Spawn a LOOOOOOONG time ago. Since he's not Abaddon the Spawn, he has been succesfull in all the endeavors the pantheon have required of him. You can't equivocate with those 4 and pass the blame on to someone else. You become a Spawn even before you have a chance to point the finger at someone else.

 

We just don't know what his specific objectives always were.

The chaos gods don't want to outright kill, except maybe Khorne, because they need fear to feed from.

 

So I think they're making old failbaddon toy with the imperium, but as stated above, he hasn't been turned to spawn yet. I don't think the gods care for a meager human, but they know that what they tell him he'll do.

 

He has all of the gods 'favor'

[Rik Riorik]

You don't call a win in the Sabbat World's Crusade a failed attempt to take the Eye of Terror. Abaddon hasn't taken Terra no, but that hasn't been the goal as of yet. The last goal was simply to break open the flood gates of the Eye by taking or crippling Cadia. I don't remember how that campaign concluded though.

 

Abaddon is for all intents and purposes not like Archaon the Evercushion who if it weren't for the mechanics of the Storm of Chaos campaign would hardly have been able to make anything resembling an incursion as the majority of his forces were struggling to take the small towns, farmsteads and bridges on the outskirts of Middenland.

 

Also Abbadon needs a new model. Because Tiny Abby doesn't awe anyone, no matter the matter of the 2 mile top knot.

[subtlebrush]

Personally, I agree that Abs isnt going for the throat. My theory is that Abs wants to destroy the Imperium in it's entirity. He doesn't want to simply nuke Terra out of existence, or destroy just the golden throne. He wants to burn everything every conceived of under the dominance of the imperium. With an empire the size of the Imperium, that takes times and resources. Already the Imperium's resources are being stretched to their breaking points. With the Tyranids encroaching across the the western rim, the Necrons rising, the Tau continually expanding, and the Orks and Tyranids creating a giant super-breeder by way of combat with whatever comes out of going to be worse then anything that went in, the Imperium is facing galexy spliting wars on multiple fronts. Abs has to know this. Hell, I'd be willing to entertain theories that Abs is somehow involved in some of those other wars solely for the purpose of depleating the Imperiums resources.

 

Oh you know he knows all about that haha. I would wager that he is taking certain procedures to help move things along, in a way spreading the Imperium in every which way till it finally snaps. I think that if the idea behind Abaddon and the 13 Black Crusades he did participate in (yeah there are more BC's led by others) were to always seem as though he was trying to head straight to Terra then hes a horrible character. I can't see every Crusade he has devised was to "take Terra", it just seems more Orkish in tactics then Chaos Space Marine if you get my drift.

 

Mr.Malevolent

[Warsmith Aznable]

What if you had just one page that had three columns, and you got to buy one rule out of each column? One column is thematic, one column is organizational, one column is strategic.

 

So all the units are the same (with tweaks to make each individual unit worth taking points and stat-wise), but suddenly Chaos Space Marines players are coming to the table in a bizarre multitude of competitive configurations?

 

Thematic:

1. Legion - all troop units get Fearless USR, cult troops get free Aspiring Champion for units in sacred numbers

2. Renegade - all troop units get Stubborn USR

3. Apostate - all troop units get Preferred Enemy USR

4. Pirate - all troop units get Hit & Run USR

5. Deceived - all troop units get Infiltrate USR

6. Free - No Changes

 

Organizational:

1. Massive Horde - Fast Attack slots are converted to Troops slots

2. Robot Attack - Walkers may also be taken in Troop slots in addition to their original slots, and are scoring

3. Sudden Death - Troop slots are converted to Fast Attack slots, and are scoring

4. Noble Warriors - Elites may also be taken in Troop slots in addition to their originals slots, and are scoring

5. Heavy Metal - Tanks may also be taken in Troop slots in addition to their original slots, and are scoring

6. Free - No Changes

 

Strategic:

1. Master of Tactics - Troops gain Scout USR, +1 to Initiative and Reserve rolls gain +1

2. Death From the Sky - Troops gain Deep Strike ability and re-rolls on scatter dice

3. Lord of Daemons - Summoned Lesser Daemons gain a Mark matching their HQ's, Summoned Greater Daemons don't require a sacrifice when coming from Reserves

4. Unending Punishment - Any troop unit that is completely destroyed goes to Reserves and can be redeployed as reinforcements deployed from the players board edge on a successful Reserve Roll

5. Changer of Ways - Re-rolls on psychic tests, can roll to steal initiative at the start of any round

6. Free - No Changes

 

Or something to that effect, giving each player the option to take the units that are already there and to build a list tailored to his preferences with them. Legions, warbands and DIY Chaos chapters could be designed based on a players notion of what is fluffy for that unit, eliminating the need/desire for extra entries of units and rules or the possibility of multiple books. Two pages are added to the codex (one to explain the "themes" in fluff terms, and the other to list the above), and that's it, that's all it takes to make Chaos Space Marines varied and interesting.

 

You want Iron Warriors? You take Legion/Robot Attack/Unending Punishment. You want Word Bearers? You take Legion/Massive Horde/Lord of Daemons. You want Night Lords? You take Legion/Sudden Death/Master of Tactics. Red Corsairs? Pirate/Sudden Death/Master of Tactics. Some sort of crazy DIY thing of your own? Deceived/Noble Warriors/Death From the Sky. Or Apostate/Heavy Metal/Unending Punishment. Aren't sure? Skip all of that and spend the points on more troops or vehicles.

 

The Loyalists and Xenos would NEVER know what to expect from a Chaos Marine player. They have their fancy toys, special rules and crazy characters, but a scheme like this would always make them dread what a CSM player might bring to the table because they could never be fully prepared for it, and represents the seething denizens pouring out of the Eye of Terror in relentless hordes meaningfully on the table top.

 

If my math isn't off, that's 216 different ways to build a CSM list without adding any new units to the codex, and it doesn't even cover what specific units you take, just how you can take them.

[AoC]

Get over Abe the figurehead. I don't want him to be praised all over new codex.

 

Back to the topic, i would like to see many many options:

-multiple steeds, packs, bikes, tda for chosen (who are worth their salt, WS5, 2W 2A minimum)

-cannonfodder

-customizable lords who are better than loyalist dogs and actually boost his troops

-cool demonic powers

-new wargear and squad options for all chaos marines

-some deamons, including daemonic cavalry

-flyers

-new transport options

-proper marks of chaos

 

But most of all, i want 6th edition with less clunky system, that is actually both tactical and intuitive.

-DROP PODS

[Warsmith Aznable]

To further flesh out my idea, as far as themes go:

 

Legion - original Traitor Legions of legend and lore. That's why they are Fearless and get free Aspiring Champs.

Renegade - descended from splinter warbands or Loyalist chapters turned long ago, Stubborn, but not as hard as the original Traitors.

Apostate - recently fallen, filled with a particular malice for their former masters and able to exploit their recent knowledge of them (hence Preferred Enemy)

Pirate - the dregs of the fallen, collected in motley crews to plunder and fight for their own reasons, specializing in piratical raids (Hit and Run)

Deceived - don't know they've fallen, perhaps led by a corrupt leader, or are in denial after falling recently, trying to maintain their identity in the face of Chaos (because they still look like Loyalists they get the Infiltrate)

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

You want Iron Warriors? You take Legion/Robot Attack/Unending Punishment. You want Word Bearers? You take Legion/Massive Horde/Lord of Daemons. You want Night Lords? You take Legion/Sudden Death/Master of Tactics. Red Corsairs? Pirate/Sudden Death/Master of Tactics. Some sort of crazy DIY thing of your own? Deceived/Noble Warriors/Death From the Sky. Or Apostate/Heavy Metal/Unending Punishment. Aren't sure? Skip all of that and spend the points on more troops or vehicles.

 

If you string the different columns together, they start to sound like Metallica lyrics.

[Warsmith Aznable]

If you string the different columns together, they start to sound like Metallica lyrics.

 

It has precedent: Graham McNeill quotes Slayer several times in Dead Sky, Black Sun. :D