What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[caboosebe]

I see your point, and I do see great value in it. But for some reason it just doesn't feel right to me.

If you do a God-based codex, then I'm feeling as if the Chaos Legions are truly lost. A World Eaters will be the same an other fanatic Khorne worshipper. Yes the Legion broke up, but in their blood, they're still Legion, and carry chararistics of their Legion still with them.

Also, this limits your creativity. If they would make a single codex, you can say, I'll be playing Chaos Space Marines, and then you could still go Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Nothing. It would really make the codex enjoyable because you can try different stuff all the time. While as you have Khorne codex, you know you will always be in close combat, going as fast forward as you can , charge en kill. While enjoyable, will get dull after a while.

 

 

 

edit:typos

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah if they're going to make a god-based codex they need to have at least some special rules for the four legions that were glossed over previously (iron warriors, night lords, alpha legion and word bearers). Really most of the chaos players i think want at least a few legion rules back just to give us some character again.

[Decepticon Soundwave]

I think the reason we don't get multiple chaos codices is an economic one over a fluff one. From what talking to independent stores have told me they have to stock all the codices and army books and X amount of items from army specifics and if boxes cross codices like the tactical squad they have to stock more of that.

 

Plus add printing costs, costs of space and such it is probly not business sound. Plus the creation of new sprues or upgrade sprues.

 

3.5 I think had it best you pay for the mark it is on your guys until they die. You want deamons pay fora big stick and put it on someone.

[Kristoff]

I think the reason we don't get multiple chaos codices is an economic one over a fluff one. From what talking to independent stores have told me they have to stock all the codices and army books and X amount of items from army specifics and if boxes cross codices like the tactical squad they have to stock more of that.

 

Plus add printing costs, costs of space and such it is probly not business sound. Plus the creation of new sprues or upgrade sprues.

 

This argument falls flat when you consider that there are currently 5 Loyalist Space Marine codecies out on the market and they seem to be doing fine.

 

I personally think 5 would be too many, and it could work with 3, but that's just me.

[Kristoff]

Dang interwebs causing double posts.

[Decepticon Soundwave]

I do not think the arguement falls flat when since forever space marines are the beginner army. Chaos is just on flavor of marine love. Codex Marines are bland or at least most versitile in their blandness, Wolves are character heavy, Templars are close combat, Blood angels are fast. Plus we have two chaos codices we have chaos space marines and chaos light in the dark angels.

[mrtn]

Thousand Sons: Weather by design or accident, the Thousand Sons have effectively been crippled from the prospect of an army level concept. Even though they had some great character in their back ground, something like 9 out of every 10 Thousand Sons marines are nothing but a pile of dust in their armor.

Personally I'd like to see some Tzeentchian renegades, it's very strange that Khorne seems to pick up new recruits by the handful, but Tzeentch don't. Or maybe those should be represented by the general icons, but then I think that the icons should be cut loose from marks. Icons can help with guiding deepstriking daemons, but I hate the current "icon instead of mark" rules.

Emperors' Children: Their defining idea has been the Noise Marines and I'm sorry, but I still don't understand how they came to the obsession with sound. It's like Bile started tinkering with the brains during the Heresy and they were like "Hey Sounds affects the brain."

The reason we have noise marines is that guys with bell bottoms and electric guitars are the definition of cool, just ask Jimi Hendrix. ;)

 

BTW, thanks everyone who joined in the legion/warband discussion, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[maverike_prime]

Thousand Sons: Weather by design or accident, the Thousand Sons have effectively been crippled from the prospect of an army level concept. Even though they had some great character in their back ground, something like 9 out of every 10 Thousand Sons marines are nothing but a pile of dust in their armor.

Personally I'd like to see some Tzeentchian renegades, it's very strange that Khorne seems to pick up new recruits by the handful, but Tzeentch don't. Or maybe those should be represented by the general icons, but then I think that the icons should be cut loose from marks. Icons can help with guiding deepstriking daemons, but I hate the current "icon instead of mark" rules.

 

That's part of the problem I see with Tzeentch. It's become personified by the Thousand Sons. The Thousand Sons are effectively unchanging. So how the heck do they personify the God of Change? I like the Thousand Sons unit right now, though I would like to see some other options for it besides the 3 powers for the sorcerer. And I firmly agree with making Tzeentch Marked/Iconed Marines NOT be Thousand Sons. But really, a 6+ inv? That's it? Really?

 

Emperors' Children: Their defining idea has been the Noise Marines and I'm sorry, but I still don't understand how they came to the obsession with sound. It's like Bile started tinkering with the brains during the Heresy and they were like "Hey Sounds affects the brain."

 

The reason we have noise marines is that guys with bell bottoms and electric guitars are the definition of cool, just ask Jimi Hendrix. :)

 

*sigh* And see that's exactly my biggest problem with some stuff in 40k. The "It's this way because it's cool" mentality. Give me a reason that the Emperor's children seem to have a thing about sound above and beyond Bile started plugging odd things into them.

 

Edit: okay, that last line doesn't read quit like I intended it to. Just move on please.

[the jeske]

Give me a reason that the Emperor's children seem to have a thing about sound above and beyond Bile started plugging odd things into them.

NM marine was their schtick since end RT time. Isnt that enough ?

new fluffwise they looted the noise weapons because they were deadly and then after they switched to chaos worship the weapons gave a bonus of new sensations durning battle [and that is the more important thing for a slanny dude].

 

 

I wouldnt cry over the unplayabilty of the 1ksons . GW seems to hate them , they had bad rules in 2ed , bad rules in the 3ed JJ dex, they were a "fun" army at best in the 3.5 and they arent much better now.

[Warsmith Aznable]

*sigh* And see that's exactly my biggest problem with some stuff in 40k. The "It's this way because it's cool" mentality.

 

Oh, I don't know. I tend to think that's what's attractive about 40k. None of this stuff makes sense outside of the universe it was made for (or rather, the universe that was dreamed up to excuse the things they thought were cool). There's plenty of sci-fi out there that's totally plausible and all kinds of sensible. It's also fairly boring.

 

Besides, did you read Fulgrim? It gives as reasonable an explanation for Noise Marines as there is reason for anything else in this game.

[Legatus]

Give me a reason that the Emperor's children seem to have a thing about sound above and beyond Bile started plugging odd things into them.

Because following Slaanesh makes one carve more and more ectreme sensory experiences. It is difficult to stimulate the olfactory and visual senses to the extreme (the visual senses not without becoming useless in a combat environment). Stimulating the tactile or pain senses is difficult because they are in heavy body armour. They may be tearing and mutilating their own flesh, but that does not really do anything effective in combat. What remains are the auditory senses, and that is indeed what the earliest descriptios for the Noise Marines were focusing on.

Plus, enemies being shredded by lethal sound waves is wonderfully horrific and adds to the collection of brutal WH40K weaponry.

[maverike_prime]

*sigh* And see that's exactly my biggest problem with some stuff in 40k. The "It's this way because it's cool" mentality.

 

Oh, I don't know. I tend to think that's what's attractive about 40k. None of this stuff makes sense outside of the universe it was made for (or rather, the universe that was dreamed up to excuse the things they thought were cool). There's plenty of sci-fi out there that's totally plausible and all kinds of sensible. It's also fairly boring.

 

Besides, did you read Fulgrim? It gives as reasonable an explanation for Noise Marines as there is reason for anything else in this game.

 

No haven't gotten to Fulgrim yet. Still trying to finish Thousand Sons. I may just give up on that one and jump into Prospero burns.

 

And when I say I would like an explanation of why things are the way they are, Look at the World Eaters and Death Guard.

 

The World Eaters were all border-line psychopathic long before Khorne got ahold of them. Why? It all started with Angeron. And later when he was captured/kidnapped by the Emperor... well, I can't imagine that went over particularly well. So when the Emperor told Angeron to stop using the inplants, well like Angeron was going to listen to him.

 

The Death Guard were undying warriors long before they were corrupted by the destroyer hive. They worked to emulate their Primarch who himself had had his own endurance repeatedly tested by the demonic over lords of his world.

 

Heck, even the space wolves have a really strong character design that is pretty well justified, their fragging Primarch was raised by wolves!

 

Then you've got the Emperor's Children. Pre-heresy they were obsessed with excellence at all levels. Lucius practiced hard to become a sword master and even after he became one he practiced even harder to hone his skills. Their Primarch believed in perfection of all things and initially saw the Emperor as a personification of that Belief. Okay I follow that. Then Bile started plugging things in to see if he could make the legion better. OKay I'm with that. So they start learning to scream at their enemies...oooookay. I'll follow along, I mean being able to scream loud enough to use it as a weapon against your enemies is rather impressive.

[the jeske]

OKay I'm with that. So they start learning to scream at their enemies...oooookay. I'll follow along, I mean being able to scream loud enough to use it as a weapon against your enemies is rather impressive.

well the sonic weapons they faced on on modified humans requiered the use of 2 legion strike groups on one planet system and was not without hvy loses . if they were effective for normal men then how powerful would those weapons be for space marines . + it went along with the way Bile though about the whole sm project and how emps stoped it half way . Bile original goal was to turn a human in to a primarch , but then he realised after the heresy that primarchs or even the emperor himself werent as perfect as others may have though . that there was more and while most heresy legions found the more in the warp and it gods , Bile had the idea that It would be possible to do with upgrading space marnines with mixing organs from different legions[the way he able to "cure" a NL from his paranoia by implanting a SW scout organ]. It did make sense .

[Slayer le Boucher]

Emperors' Children: Their defining idea has been the Noise Marines and I'm sorry, but I still don't understand how they came to the obsession with sound. It's like Bile started tinkering with the brains during the Heresy and they were like "Hey Sounds affects the brain."

 

Because they love banging their Heads while listening to Metal and slaugther/corrupt things that likes Justin Bieber?... ;)

[Decepticon Soundwave]

OKay I'm with that. So they start learning to scream at their enemies...oooookay. I'll follow along, I mean being able to scream loud enough to use it as a weapon against your enemies is rather impressive.

well the sonic weapons they faced on on modified humans requiered the use of 2 legion strike groups on one planet system and was not without hvy loses . if they were effective for normal men then how powerful would those weapons be for space marines . + it went along with the way Bile though about the whole sm project and how emps stoped it half way . Bile original goal was to turn a human in to a primarch , but then he realised after the heresy that primarchs or even the emperor himself werent as perfect as others may have though . that there was more and while most heresy legions found the more in the warp and it gods , Bile had the idea that It would be possible to do with upgrading space marnines with mixing organs from different legions[the way he able to "cure" a NL from his paranoia by implanting a SW scout organ]. It did make sense .

 

 

 

Woah woah woah nightlords arenot paranoid they are just prepared for any eventuality. Plus you spelled his name wrong it is Fabulous Billy.

[the jeske]

Woah woah woah nightlords arenot paranoid they are just prepared for any eventuality. Plus you spelled his name wrong it is Fabulous Billy.

In dont do in character stuff . and english is not my forte . So I dont understand what your saying here.

[maverike_prime]

Woah woah woah nightlords arenot paranoid they are just prepared for any eventuality. Plus you spelled his name wrong it is Fabulous Billy.

In dont do in character stuff . and english is not my forte . So I dont understand what your saying here.

 

it's an ongoing joke through out the Games Workshop world. Customer's come in being told by their kids to get "Fabius Bile" and somewhere it gets mutated into "Fabulous Billy". So the scene goes something like this:

 

GW emp: Good afternoon. How can I help you?

 

Customer: Um, my son wanted me to get him 'fabulous billy'...

 

Gw Emp: Oh you mean Fabius Bile.

 

Customer: No no, I'm sure he said Fabilus Billy.

[Decepticon Soundwave]

I thought it was just because he was fabulous?

 

I feel it is kinda like the people who purposly anglicize primarch names like rob gillman.

 

as for the Night Lords remark it was a joke. Because I know they are paranoid I read Index Astartes they areparanoid just trying to explain away the paranoia.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Give me a reason that the Emperor's children seem to have a thing about sound above and beyond Bile started plugging odd things into them.

Because following Slaanesh makes one carve more and more ectreme sensory experiences. It is difficult to stimulate the olfactory and visual senses to the extreme (the visual senses not without becoming useless in a combat environment). Stimulating the tactile or pain senses is difficult because they are in heavy body armour. They may be tearing and mutilating their own flesh, but that does not really do anything effective in combat. What remains are the auditory senses, and that is indeed what the earliest descriptios for the Noise Marines were focusing on.

Plus, enemies being shredded by lethal sound waves is wonderfully horrific and adds to the collection of brutal WH40K weaponry.

 

Well, I once wrote some fluff about a Slaanesh warband who focussed around gluttony, constantly needing to eat the geneseed of other, non-corrupted Chapters to stave off the degradation of their own. I've also always liked the image of some Slaaneshi marines who obsessed over the sense of touch, but have since become so burned out, their entire epidermis becoming one mass of scar tissue, that they can't really feel anything anymore. So now they wade into close combat, hoping that the blows of the enemy might strike them in some new way, so that they can feel something, anything, again. Just count them as Plague Marines, and there you go, touch-obsessed Slaaneshi marines.

[darknightdrako]

Can't GW just sell one C:CSM and have online pdf's/datasheets for Legion rules that requires you to the codex? Take the current C:CSM just as an example, have some datasheet/rule thats goes something like this:

(I'm just making these rules as I go)

 

Legion: World Eaters

Rules to playing WE:

- Any HQ taken must have MoK and recieves FC rule.

- Cannot take Icons of the 3 God's.

- Cannot take PM, NM, and TS.

- Chaos Space Marines, Havocs, Chaos Terminators have IoC for free.

- Khorne Berserkers cost -5 pts.

- Kharne the Betrayer has EW rule.

 

Special Units:

- Blood Letters

- Blood Crushers

- Greater Deamon of Khorne

 

________________________

 

Legion: Thousand Sons

Rules to playing TS:

- Any HQ taken must have MoT.

- Cannot take Icons of the 3 God's.

- Cannot take PM, NM, and KB.

- Thousand Son and Aspiring Sorcerer cost -5 pts.

- Chaos Space Marines, Havocs, Chaos Terminators have IoT for free.

- Ahriman has EW rule.

 

Special Units:

- Horrors

- Greater Daemon of Tzeentch

 

 

________________________

 

Legion: Iron Warriors

Rules to playing IW:

- An entire unit of CSM's/Havocs may have the "Tank Hunter" rule for 3 pts each. Chaos Terminators/Lord 5 pts each.

- Vehicles and Walkers may take the "Tank Hunter" rule for 20 pts each

- If the HS has been completely filled an IW army may take one extra Defiler or Vindicator

 

Special Units:

- May take Basiliks as HS *enter stats, points cost and chaos vehicle options*

- May take Warsmiths as HQ *enter stats/points cost/wargear/special rule*

 

 

________________________

 

Legion: Word Bearers

Rules to playing WB:

- lesser daemons cost -8 pts

- 0-2 greater daemons

 

Special Unit:

- May take Dark Apostles as HQ *enter stats/points cost/wargear/special rule*

 

 

Yeah.... something like that.

 

Or on the other hand it would be grand if GW tweaked the 3.5 codex legion rules in order to match the current codex. :lol:

[Alys]

Or sell a codex, and put the legion rules in WD. I don't buy that magazine, but I would for the extra rules.

[Decepticon Soundwave]

I would buy that mag again on the regular if it was like it was back I think pre issue 300 there were some good ones after 300 hundred. I also wish Black Gobbo was still around. All White Dwarf is, is a catalog of new stuff and very rarely stuff for gaming. Now I realize that white dwarfs main audience is those who do not have access to a regular shop/GW store, But the gaming articles are not that good anymore.

 

I remember the great Chapter Approved, the Caern list, the vampires of the zombie coast, warbands rules, index astartes. We really lost alot of the good from that mag.

[subtlebrush]

I would buy that mag again on the regular if it was like it was back I think pre issue 300 there were some good ones after 300 hundred. I also wish Black Gobbo was still around. All White Dwarf is, is a catalog of new stuff and very rarely stuff for gaming. Now I realize that white dwarfs main audience is those who do not have access to a regular shop/GW store, But the gaming articles are not that good anymore.

 

I remember the great Chapter Approved, the Caern list, the vampires of the zombie coast, warbands rules, index astartes. We really lost alot of the good from that mag.

 

Aye as do I miss what was the White Dwarf. Its a shame really....

 

Mr.Malevolent

[Gaz Taylor]

Can't GW just sell one C:CSM and have online pdf's/datasheets for Legion rules that requires you to the codex?

 

Or sell a codex, and put the legion rules in WD. I don't buy that magazine, but I would for the extra rules.

 

Nice ideas but I can not see it happening. For a start, whilst the majority of people have access to the net, you still have those who don't. Then you have the issue of people needing to find the rules. Finally having it in a proper codex makes the rules offical, whilst having them as a pdf or WD article still has them with a element of them not being offical.

 

Personally I agree with what people have said already, with a generic CSM codex to cover most of the legions/warbands and then some to cover the more interesting ones (or just one big fact chunka lunka one with everything in it).

[Son of Rawl]

I have had a thought on how I would like the Legions to be implemented into the game, following the same example as the Pheonix Lords in the Eldar Codex you would have a base stat line for each lord which would be slightly better than the normal choice and each one would give an army wide rule. So for example;

 

Statline

WS6 BS5 S4 T4 W3 I6 A4 SV3+/4+ LD10

 

Alpharius -

Tactical Mastery - When bringing in reserves they can enter from any table edge

Lord of the Hyra - Troops gain the Infiltrate Universal Rule

 

Erebus -

Word in your Ear - Select one troop unit after deployment from your oponents army and force them to make a leadership test, if they fail they become one of your troop choices

Bearer of the Word - All daemons within 12 inches of any of your units do not role for instability

 

Ferrox -

Seige Master - Allows Heavy upport choices to be taken as Elites as well

Iron Within - Havocs and Troop choices gain Tank Hunters universal rule

 

Severus -

Rule through Fear - Select one of your oponents HQs and have them roll a leadership test, if they fail then that model is reduced to one wound

Lord of the Night - Your oponent suffers +1 to every leadership test he must take

 

Something along those lines to allow us to choose a legion, loyalists can have charecters that can change there FoC to do there chapters so why cant we