What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[Cosmic Archmage]

If C:GK is any indication, Daemon Weapons are not going to be especially good if we get Matt Ward as a writer. Most of the possible effects you can get are somewhat good, but it reeks with the "Chaos = Random" gimmick.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Oh by Khorne and all that is unholy; please don't let Ward write the codex!...

 

Oh great Khorne please make it so that he break his two arms, when the times comes...

 

For the D Wapon Mastery a simple thing would have been: if a 1 is rolled the Lord, makes his base number attacks, but takes a wound at the end of the assault phase.

[Iron Lord]

If C:GK is any indication, Daemon Weapons are not going to be especially good if we get Matt Ward as a writer. Most of the possible effects you can get are somewhat good, but it reeks with the "Chaos = Random" gimmick.

 

It also said that "daemonblades" are weaker than daemon weapons- because they're bound with Inquisitorial magic to prevent them doing the kind of things that daemon weapons do, to the wielder.

[Hellios]

If C:GK is any indication, Daemon Weapons are not going to be especially good if we get Matt Ward as a writer. Most of the possible effects you can get are somewhat good, but it reeks with the "Chaos = Random" gimmick.

 

Hmmm I wouldn't worry yet... first of all that is supposed to represent a generic daemon weapon and all the random rolls represent the myriad powers daemon weapons can have... While in the Chaos dex I would hope we will still have specific daemon weapons...

 

Also remember that the codex Grey Knights daemon weapon is a bound daemon weapon so in theory less powerful than the Chaos codex daemon weapons which are unbound :cuss

[BlkTom]

If they have the same guy write the Chaos Codex who did the Grey Knight codex, there wouldn't be any demons left as the Grey Knight's Chapter Master Chuck Norris killed them all with a round house. A single round house.

 

Worse. Fluff. Ever.

 

That guy should be taken out and shot for that. I never want him touching another Codex ever. You then take out the people who /approved/ that shiet, thinking it was a great idea, and shoot them too.

[Iron Lord]

If they have the same guy write the Chaos Codex who did the Grey Knight codex, there wouldn't be any demons left as the Grey Knight's Chapter Master Chuck Norris killed them all with a round house. A single round house.

 

This is an overstatement- every time he kills daemons (in the Realms of Chaos) they come back, everything he destroys, repairs itself, and so on.

 

It's not like killing daemons of vast power is new, either. In Siege of Vraks III, Captain Stern kills Papa Gaap, the super-daemon of Nurgle, and Inquisitor Hector Rex kills Ann'grath, the super-daemon of Khorne.

 

Next to those achievements, killing "ordinary" greater daemons, and even a Daemon Primarch, suddenly looks not so impressive.

[Hellios]

If they have the same guy write the Chaos Codex who did the Grey Knight codex, there wouldn't be any demons left as the Grey Knight's Chapter Master Chuck Norris killed them all with a round house. A single round house.

 

This is an overstatement- every time he kills daemons (in the Realms of Chaos) they come back, everything he destroys, repairs itself, and so on.

 

It's not like killing daemons of vast power is new, either. In Siege of Vraks III, Captain Stern kills Papa Gaap, the super-daemon of Nurgle, and Inquisitor Hector Rex kills Ann'grath, the super-daemon of Khorne.

 

Next to those achievements, killing "ordinary" greater daemons, and even a Daemon Primarch, suddenly looks not so impressive.

 

Yes but those events happened within the material realm... also they didn't kill them but banished them to the warp... Now when fighting daemons in the warp where is he supposed to banish them to... the material realm? Also by being in the warp they are surrounded by the very stuff they are made from and can just draw power and energy from it... Beating on daemons on their home turf is a lot tougher... hell in the material realm to beat them all you have to do is make their connection unstable :D

[Iron Lord]

In this case "killed" might mean run through in a critical spot.

 

So- when he stabs a daemon- it falls over "dead" then shortly afterward, comes back.

 

It also mentions that a daemon "killed in body" in the material realm, is able to come back much quicker than "one banished body and soul"- so, it's possible to "kill the body" of a daemon without actually banishing it.

 

Maybe the same applies to the Realms of Chaos- they have bodies- which are killable- but their "souls" are much harder to disrupt.

[Rik Riorik]

The blanket applied Ward hate is by and large too much and I can't take it seriously. The GK codex appears to me to be a fun and interesting codex, much more so than the old Daemonhunters codex in my opinion. That said some of the fluff in there did strike me as being over the top. Then again things are allowed to be over the top its just that the GK codex has a bit too much of it.

 

Ward can easily write my Chaos codex as far as I am concerned. By the way who seriously thinks one person writes a Codex without taking onboards directives and input on te work being done?

[Iron Lord]

I tend to agree. Might be that he's better at writing rules than fluff- still, when I see the Ward Marine Codexes, and compare them to Codex Dark Angels and Codex CSMs, I think his rules-writing might be worth the odd moment of dubious fluff.

[Lord Typhon]

Simple solution; allow Ward to write rules (that way we'll be as Overpowered as Chaos should be >,>;; ), and keep him the Warp away from our fluff! He'll say yabbadabbadon is the clone of the son of Chuck Norris and Jackie Chan and that Matt Ward is the 6th Chaos God for Warp's sake!

[Iron Lord]

As far as I can tell Ward's codicies have never been significantly more powerful than the previous most powerful codex.

 

Space Marines was not much more powerful than Orks, Blood Angels and Grey Knights were not much more powerful than Imperial Guard, or Space Wolves.

[AoC]

I tend to agree. Might be that he's better at writing rules than fluff- still, when I see the Ward Marine Codexes, and compare them to Codex Dark Angels and Codex CSMs, I think his rules-writing might be worth the odd moment of dubious fluff.

No, it's totally awful. He can't get the internal balance right even if his life depend on it. He also have habit of adding rules and breaking core rules for the sake of it.

He is single worst codex writer in the GW, hands down.

 

I would like to see codex close to this:

 

codex: black legion

 

Maybe better, as it looks outdated.

[Son of Rawl]

As far as I can tell Ward's codicies have never been significantly more powerful than the previous most powerful codex.

 

Space Marines was not much more powerful than Orks, Blood Angels and Grey Knights were not much more powerful than Imperial Guard, or Space Wolves.

 

Ward is however pretty good at creating new rules...its just overlooked by the over the top fluff he creates.

 

If GW did what they did with the Black Templar codex, that is have Graham McNeil write the fluff and have someone else focus on the rules then Ward maybe liked more

[the jeske]

Ward is however pretty good at creating new rules

you mean the ones like he gave the demon in WFB that more or less destroyed the game for 2 years for everyone ?

[Brother Nihm]

We have enough threads full of Matt Ward hate on the board as is, surely us Chaos players are better than that?

In other words, get back on topic.

[Son of Rawl]

Ward is however pretty good at creating new rules

you mean the ones like he gave the demon in WFB that more or less destroyed the game for 2 years for everyone ?

 

 

Yeah should of included 'Most of the time' in that post.

 

Thing is we can dream what we would want in a chaos codex but odds are they won't appear, the only way to do so is to write to GW enmass and let them know what we want, ignoring one fan is easy but the entire chaos fanbase is another matter

[the jeske]

it is small , with little support and smaller number of cash spends on stuff related to it as times goes by . Why would they be interested in those few people and what they want . What they could be interested in is new players , without any chaos models[because they would have to buy whole new armies] , not attached in anyway to the 3.5 fluff , because they may not like the happy chaos family, which in turn may make them not buy stuff . why would a 1ksons player buy khorn zerkers ? he wouldnt. But a chaos player with 0 attachment to legions or factions would , if they were made awesome .

 

the problem with chaos is that they have too many specials [as in characters ]already , they cant suddenly make a telion/lysander/astaroth etc because the dex would then sit at 10+ special characters [and remember you either you want people to buy pricy metal HQs from the start or make them scratch builds one and then make them buy metal ones when you hit them with the legal second wave of models] , they would have to either cut stuff [and even for the chaos did they do this . even JJ who cut stuff a lot didnt remove all the specials from the DA dex] or make a codex that realy isnt about chaos sm . Both wont happen . IF we do a chaos dex , then it is probably going to be some variation of the gav dex . maybe some named squad leaders , maybe a additional rules for old specials [which probably will also boost their cost] . If we are realy realy lucky our havocks/bikers/raptors/possessed get upgrades rules/traits/veteran skills [you pick it] and that is all. There will be no legion rules , no going back to the glory days of 3.5 . If we are lucky we get 2-3 working builds instead of one . If not then we just switch armies and get another 3-4 years of playing the same thing .

[maverike_prime]

it is small , with little support and smaller number of cash spends on stuff related to it as times goes by . Why would they be interested in those few people and what they want . What they could be interested in is new players , without any chaos models[because they would have to buy whole new armies] , not attached in anyway to the 3.5 fluff , because they may not like the happy chaos family, which in turn may make them not buy stuff . why would a 1ksons player buy khorn zerkers ? he wouldnt. But a chaos player with 0 attachment to legions or factions would , if they were made awesome .

 

the problem with chaos is that they have too many specials [as in characters ]already , they cant suddenly make a telion/lysander/astaroth etc because the dex would then sit at 10+ special characters [and remember you either you want people to buy pricy metal HQs from the start or make them scratch builds one and then make them buy metal ones when you hit them with the legal second wave of models] , they would have to either cut stuff [and even for the chaos did they do this . even JJ who cut stuff a lot didnt remove all the specials from the DA dex] or make a codex that realy isnt about chaos sm . Both wont happen . IF we do a chaos dex , then it is probably going to be some variation of the gav dex . maybe some named squad leaders , maybe a additional rules for old specials [which probably will also boost their cost] . If we are realy realy lucky our havocks/bikers/raptors/possessed get upgrades rules/traits/veteran skills [you pick it] and that is all. There will be no legion rules , no going back to the glory days of 3.5 . If we are lucky we get 2-3 working builds instead of one . If not then we just switch armies and get another 3-4 years of playing the same thing .

 

I'm sorry, I don't follow your logic at all. There are 7 Special characters in the current Codex and with the exception of Apoc games, you can't make use of more then 2 of them in a single game. By comparison the Space Marine codex maintains 11 named characters and you can use as many as 4 of them in a single game. They crafted most of those characters specifically to address the different space Marine chapters and the differences between them. Now whether they succeeded with each of them is a debate best held else where. Is there really any question that there are more Space Marine armies then any other force in the game?

[AoC]

I'm sorry, I don't follow your logic at all. There are 7 Special characters in the current Codex and with the exception of Apoc games, you can't make use of more then 2 of them in a single game. By comparison the Space Marine codex maintains 11 named characters and you can use as many as 4 of them in a single game. They crafted most of those characters specifically to address the different space Marine chapters and the differences between them. Now whether they succeeded with each of them is a debate best held else where. Is there really any question that there are more Space Marine armies then any other force in the game?

I'd rather have additional 10 generic choices than 10 special characters, as those 10 generic choices can sport varied outfit, and those characters always use the same outfit. I would be perfectly happy with just 1 special character (abbadon), maybe 5 (abby and 1 for each chaos god).

 

For example, why we need fabulous billy ? Why not just add generic chaos apothecary option ?

Why we need Huron ? He is just generic chaos lord after all.

Why we need Khârn, ahri, typhy and lucek ? Those are just generic cult lords, and they could've been build using cult lord rules in proper codex.

I understand that we might need Abby, as getting blessing from all 4 chaos gods at once is not widespread.

[Decepticon Soundwave]

I think the real problem is other then adding angry marines, fast marines, tough marines and crux terminatus on standard marines we really have no way of doing cult lists beyond troops and a special character/giving a lord some mark and letting go. The book is really a black legion/renegade book forgetting that there are 8 other legions out there plying the warp and killing stuff.

 

The real thing that pisses me off the most is actually a game mechanic and how it interacts with our book. That mechanic is wound allocation. I will give you that the champion is the champ no one takes up the power blade immediate like and rises to command, the guy with the heavy weapons well you don't have the time to grab his extra kit and start firing, and since this is 40k and everyone has handled there weapon for a million years and cannot work a single point and click interface the special weapon guy to if he gets smoked. But the guy with the Icon is just a guy holding a stick. In the ultramarines movie middle of a battle the banner bearer gets it and what happens someone else takes up the pretty little flag.

 

I would rather have marks the way they used to be where they were something on the souls of my marines and the stick was just needed for deamon summoning.

 

As to matt ward hate in all honesty my real problem with the grey knight book is the fluff makes no sense to the realm of fiction it is placed in, in some cases. Example of this is the assassin fluff assassins no like grey knights and grey knights dislike assassins.....but if they are on the same planet something magical will happen and is this love by white snake will play in the background. So at that point why can't my loyalist space marines dropping on a world with an assassin on it take them? My second problem is with the assassins as well assassins are designed to kill jay random scmuck planetary governor and every so often bill the renegade space marine, why are they better stat line wise then my archon and succubus? 3rd Problem is Kazamov he can danger close an orbital bombardment and if he targets his own men it doesn't scatter. Here is my problem with this if he does it to grey knights ever it makes him a heretic....so why don't they specify non greyknight units? These are just some of my problems with this book I am not a tournament player I generally play fluff based armies so basically this is somethings that Irk me about the fluff which of course is a turn off to the entire army.

[the jeske]

There are 7 Special characters in the current Codex and with the exception of Apoc games, you can't make use of more then 2 of them in a single game. By comparison the Space Marine codex maintains 11 named characters and you can use as many as 4 of them in a single game.

only sm dex was made , at least in the last desing phase , for more then one faction . For GW chaos right now is one faction . They wont give us old specials and 4-5 FoC changing new ones because it wouldnt fit in to the book . And there is little they can do with the existing specials already . Khârn making zerkers troops ? why they are already troops[+most WE hate him]etc

Sm dex has different HQs for different builds for different chapters , becaus in GW eyes chapters are different while chaos is the same [aka the happy chaos family] .

Is there really any question that there are more Space Marine armies then any other force in the game?

because they are cheap [unlike IG] and have ok rules [like SW] . It has nothing to do with a concious decision of GW to make this meq army suck and that one not [or at least I hope that they are not fully aware of what they do] .

 

For example, why we need fabulous billy ?

yes because GW has a model for him .

Why we need Huron ?

yes because GW has a model for him.

 

Why we need Khârn, ahri, typhy and lucek

yes because ... you know the drill.

 

as long as they have models for it they will give it rules .

 

 

there are very few models that sold and were taken out of dexs . solar macharius , asmondai and chaos lost cypher .

[Candleshoes]

Combine all that with the latest no more metal rumors, I believe it would give them more opportunity to add more in, not less.

 

As far as creating a product or model set that will be profitable, look at what they have done over the last year with power armor armies. The BA DC box, the Sang Guard, Stormraven, the GK marines, the GK termies, all these can be bought by people who don't play the particular army, but will use them and convert them for their own power armor force. The sellability is there, and chaos give that opportunity, but in a different way.

 

Imagine they made 1 plastic 5 man box of "New Generic Chaos Marines", rather than the horned awfulness we have now. And in that 5 man box, there were a smattering of new "old mark" armor, bolters, and helms. I don't need to be a son of Magnus to see how popular the box would be.

 

Off profit and back into the codex, I don't think any changes that might be made, would make the book "worse" than it already is, we really have no where to go, but up.

[Iron Lord]

I wonder- if some of the special characters became "squad upgrades"- would it clear space away for new HQs?

 

It's a common trait in some of the newer codicies- Orks, Chaos Daemons, Space Marines, Blood Angels, Imperial Guard, Grey Knights.

 

Maybe bring back Cypher as a squad upgrade for Chaos Chosen.

Khârn and Lucius never really "felt like" leaders of big armies to me anyway. So if berzerkers and Noise Marines respectively could replace their champions with these guys- would it be a good idea?

 

A new 3 independant Chaos Apothecaries unit- a bit like Sanguinary Priests- which can replace one with Fabius Bile.

[Kristoff]

Crazy idea that just hit me, but what if Possessed weren't a Unit, but a Unit upgrade along side (and not exclusive of) the Mark/Icon?

 

This would allow for an opportunity to use Possessed Marines a bit more often.