What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[caboosebe]

I know but thay only released the codex a few years ago so its unlikely that gw will release a new one any time soon, and it was thrown together, i mean the steel brethren prefering drop pods and then not giving us drop pods, a fast attack choice with slow and purposeful and forgetting to give the land raider our machine spirit equivalent .

Yes, it's true, but hey look on the bride side, with so many people complaining about it, the next Codex should be an improvement to this one :P

[Shas'o R'Vre]

a fast attack choice with slow and purposeful

Yeah... That was truly dumb.

[Madcap]

See newer post.

 

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

I have... a few ideas.

 

For those of you who find an anathema in Whineseer or tl;dr, I'm going to give a brief summary.

 

Art that looks finished, fluff that melds the best parts of previous books (4th's strength, in my opinion, was the examination of the path of Daemonhood, whereas the Long War in 3.5 was the best bit, RoC was the madness of Chaos itself), models that are not just out of the box but show some innovation and conversion.

 

Expansion of the Betrayer rule from Khârn, or something similar, to affect units with animosity towards one another. Lords and Sorcerers betray each other, those devoted to different Gods might betray each other at range or in combat, and those with particularly opposing Gods (Khorne on Slaanesh, Tzeentch on Nurgle) would be worse betrayers, etc. I think we should bring back a system of regulating which Marks are allowed to be your line Troops- you must have an Independent Character HQ choice with a Mark to take Troops with that Mark.

 

Chaos Glory continues the idea of improving Morale. Fearless ICs convey their Fearlessness to squads they join if they have the MoCG.

 

Khornates can be either good at shooting or chopping. This deepens Khorne and the World Eaters and other Khornate warbands, rather than making them bunny-ears-on-head retarded.

 

Tzeentch's devotees get some sort of fate-based rerolls, and may further get more options to get psychic powers. Additionally there could be rules to make them into Rubrics or mutants. Additionally, unit Champions may get psychic powers, as may any model that might otherwise upgrade its bolter to a plasma gun, for example.

 

Nurglitch units should be tough, but I think as long as I'm deepening the Marks, there should be an option to either get tougher or spread disease. I call this Stagnation and Contagion.

 

Slaaneshi units should have a defined purpose. Noise Marines get access to Noise Weapons, but you can leave them at home and tool them up with Combat Drugs at I5 if you want. Or you can get those obsessed with Fulgrim's original perfectionist ideals- penultimately skilled warriors.

 

Malice. That's all I'm going to say.

 

I also think the Cults of the Raptor and Obliterator should be expanded. Raptors would be an upgrade for HQs and jump troops, making them do their Daemonic Visage/Hit and Run thing. Oblits would get bonuses to firing energy weapons and teleporting.

 

Also cribbed the name Path of Glory for a Chapter Traitsesque system wherein you buy an army trait for a commander. This keeps you from having to use special characters to unlock Legions. Night Lords damage enemy Morale, etc. One of these Paths of Glory would reward you for sticking to a particular Mark in your army.

 

From the idea of Sagas for Space Wolves I came up with Dreaded Titles (though Son of Sanguinius on Warseer came up with the concept title). Basically buy things specific to your commander. For example, the Corrupter can forgo his regular attacks in close combat and make a great number of attacks against all enemy models, representing the tidal wave of filth and vermin that rises up around him. The Doomed One is a pawn of Malal Malice that drives others before him in fear of his hatred. The Everchosen is one of the few who can weld together a solid alliance of the disparate forces of Chaos (so less betrayal in the ranks).

 

Psychic powers need more power and variety. Perhaps scrap Lash entirely.

 

Khornate Daemon Princes and Lords need something to keep pace with psychic powers. Something to represent Khorne's favor on the battlefield rather than just stat bonuses.

 

New shiny toys in the armory, including resurrection of the old, and alterations to current equipment. For example, I think Inferno Bolts should work differently. What I came up with is that a save of any kind must be rerolled. Armor, Invulnerable, Cover- everything. Daemon Weapons should get Mastery tests back.

 

Now down to the nitty gritty of the army list.

 

Special Characters: We need more. While Legionary rules will not, in my version, be the province of special characters alone, I think a character from each Legion, plus Bile and Huron, would not be remiss. They all need to provide something for your army- Abbaddon in particular.

 

HQ:

 

Daemon Princes need options. I've given them plenty. I think they should get the Unique rule.

 

Chaos Lords should still be the keepers of Daemon Weapons. I think they should be able to affect your force's composition as well. Allow units with their specific wargear (Terminator armor, Bike, etc.) to be scoring.

 

Sorcerers will improve with a deeper breadth of powers to call on.

 

Exalted Champions: These guys work like Wolf Guard- attach them to squads for extra punch.

 

Greater Daemons: A few more options, including a Mark. They shouldn't take the thunder of Codex: Daemons though. I'm hoping for an unholy trinity of Chaos Codices one day: Lost and the Damned, Daemons, and Chaos Legions.

 

Elites:

 

Chosen: I think Chosen should work differently. They should be an upgrade to a unit in your force to represent the close advisors, bodyguards, champions, and groomed successors to those claiming lordship over your force. A Lord on a Juggernaut could thus have a couple Outriders on Juggernauts to call on. Or an Iron Warrior Sorcerer could call on a small bodyguard of Terminators. I currently have Cypher as an add-on character to Chosen.

 

Terminators: With better transport options I think these guys will be more than just suicide squads.

 

Veterans: Replace the current iteration of Chosen with these guys. They have the option of specialized equipment, and if un-Marked, may take a small selection of Veteran Skills. Need a better name.

 

Possessed: What I came up with for these guys is sort of like Exalted Champions, except when the daemon takes over the host the Possessed model runs from the unit and towards the nearest enemy.

 

Dreads: Bring back 3.5's Crazed. The new is stupid. Also option to Rubric it.

 

Troops:

 

Chaos Space Marines. Bread and butter.

 

Cultists that can't take objectives or compulsory slots, but are there.

 

Daemon Packs that can be Marked, but have few other options.

 

Transports:

 

Rhinos, duh.

 

Marauder: This is an idea I came up with. High transport capacity, fast, but has the potential to eat a passenger. Adds a Daemon Engine, which I think is cool. Sets us apart.

 

Dreadclaw: My vision is this thing landing, spitting out Chaos Marines, and then its corrupted Machine Spirit makes it walk around squishing things.

 

Land Raider (Ravager): Blood Angels did it.

 

Fast Attack:

 

Outriders: Start out on Steeds, can upgrade to Bikes or Jetbikes, close combat or special weaponry options.

 

Reavers: Can upgrade to Raptors, or be Chaos Assault Marines, or take a Mark.

 

Charnel Harvester: Another Daemon Engine. In background it harvests geneseed from the fallen on either side. In the game it's a nasty close combat engine that provides an additional objective if killed.

 

Spawn: Improve or drop.

 

Heavy Support:

 

Havocs: Yeah, not a lot to say here. Better prices.

 

Predator: More options to set us apart.

 

Land Raider: More options. Variant I came up with: dual heavy flamer turret with Reaper sponsons, capacity 16 models.

 

Vindicator: Not a lot to change.

 

Defiler: Start out with a lighter weapon so we can get it in close.

 

Oblits: Eh. They're good.

[Black Hand]

How about:

 

Marks for vehicles, ideas:

 

Khorne - Tank Hunters, Rending Weapons, re-roll tank shocks or +1 ramming?

Nurgle - (-)1 on damage chart rolls, 4+ cover save at all times or +1 Armor?

Slaanesh - +1" movement, scout, stealth or infiltrate?

Tzeentch - Vehicle psychic power, Skimmer/Fast or open topped with 5+invulnerable save?

 

Better Fast Attack options.

 

Daemons in units as upgrades? <cough bloodletters on bikes, or juggernaught calvery?

 

All is cool except that last thing. That kinda doesn't make sense in the fluff; Daemons have never really integrated with the Legions or Renegades to a great extent, and fight in far more of an autonomous fashion. They are always stated as not so much fighting alongside the CSM that summoned them as fighting with them as loose allies, or a helpful yet autonomous force. The level of integration you are suggesting, though interesting, is really not feasible; Daemons just don't work with mortals in that way.

 

Also, perhaps Tank Hunters for Khornate vehicles wouldn't really be all that practical, though I get where you are coming from there - I do like the idea of vehicles unique to their respective gods.

[Dryad]

Reavers: Can upgrade to Raptors, or be Chaos Assault Marines, or take a Mark.

 

I love that!

 

Raptors should not be an exclusive representation of Chaos jump pack units. There should definitely be "jump pack CSMs" or "assaul"t marines, AND Raptors. Raptors should really be a cut above the rest with additional negatives to leadership ala old school daemonic visage, plus Raptors can get more specail weapon choices.

[Brother Hadafix]

A return of all those that were in the 3.5 FO, from Lt to cultists.

 

Marked Vehicle upgrades.

 

Marks for legions, standards for renegades. This would be a great way to differentiate the two.

 

Marks for daemons.

[TheDarkApostle]

Expansion of the Betrayer rule from Khârn, or something similar, to affect units with animosity towards one another. Lords and Sorcerers betray each other, those devoted to different Gods might betray each other at range or in combat, and those with particularly opposing Gods (Khorne on Slaanesh, Tzeentch on Nurgle) would be worse betrayers, etc. I think we should bring back a system of regulating which Marks are allowed to be your line Troops- you must have an Independent Character HQ choice with a Mark to take Troops with that Mark.

How about something like the old Animosity rule from WHFB Orcs? If opposing units are too close to eachother their get to roll on a chart and depending on the Marks they bear/or something the roll is amended with +/- 1 or more.

 

Also I really have a hard time to not be looking at the Eye of the Gods table in the new Warriors of Chaos book.

 

TDA

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Expansion of the Betrayer rule from Khârn, or something similar, to affect units with animosity towards one another. Lords and Sorcerers betray each other, those devoted to different Gods might betray each other at range or in combat, and those with particularly opposing Gods (Khorne on Slaanesh, Tzeentch on Nurgle) would be worse betrayers, etc. I think we should bring back a system of regulating which Marks are allowed to be your line Troops- you must have an Independent Character HQ choice with a Mark to take Troops with that Mark.

How about something like the old Animosity rule from WHFB Orcs? If opposing units are too close to eachother their get to roll on a chart and depending on the Marks they bear/or something the roll is amended with +/- 1 or more.

 

Also I really have a hard time to not be looking at the Eye of the Gods table in the new Warriors of Chaos book.

 

TDA

You know what? I say that all they have to do to make Lords better is just make a 40k version of that, apply it to Lords and Sorcerors (but not Daemon Princes) and poof! Lords and Sorcerors are now much more viable and I would assume attractive to players.

 

 

EDIT: Rewording.

[TheDarkApostle]

I'd also see the upgrade table divided up similar to how the Liber Chaotica have the "Rewards of the Damned" divided;

 

Gifts of Arms (Daemon Weapons)

Gifts of Beasts (Servants and Creatures)

Gifts of Flesh (Mutations)

Gifts of Will (Perversions of the Spirit)

Gifts of Title (Daemonic Name)

 

Gifts of Arms is pretty obvious, weapon upgrades and Daemon Weapons etc.

 

Gifts of Beasts is also pretty obvious from the describer, stuff like Daemonic Mounts, Juggernauts, the old Nurgling Infestion etc.

 

Gifts of Flesh is also a no-brainer.

 

Gifts of Will, here's where it's starting to get interesting, the Liber Chaotica describes this stuff like mental "upgrades" that would bring the target closer to their respective God, so stuff like Allure of Slaanesh and Blood Rage fits here. To some extent I suppose even stuff like Psychic Powers would fit here.

 

Gifts of Title, now this is the hardest one to incorporate gamewise, as this is described as the gifts that start and continue the path to Daemonhood, and having a Daemon Prince as a completely different unit makes this section pretty redundant IMO.

 

TDA

[Possessed Marine]

the easiest way to fix it would be to place current dex on Matt Ward's desk with a note that simply says "Fix it!!!"

[the jeske]

Yes, it's true, but hey look on the bride side, with so many people complaining about it, the next Codex should be an improvement to this one

you mean the way people whined how chaos was OP and we got the Gav dex ? or how we whined about how many meq get new lists and dont in 3ed and we were given the JJ dex ?

[caboosebe]

Yes, it's true, but hey look on the bride side, with so many people complaining about it, the next Codex should be an improvement to this one

you mean the way people whined how chaos was OP and we got the Gav dex ? or how we whined about how many meq get new lists and dont in 3ed and we were given the JJ dex ?

What can I say? :) I'm an optimist, I just go with what I get and make the best out of it :lol:

[Dammeron]

Something akin to the "Eyes of the Gods" rule in the current FB Chaos Warriors book would be most appropriate; a randomised table that can be rolled on when particular criteria are met for characters and particular units (e.g. Chosen), but which carries with it a certain amount of risk (i.e. if a particular roll is made, your expensive character or an entire unit may end up devolving into hideous Chaos Spawn). Kind of fun and highly appropriate, given the background, not too difficult to implement either.

 

With regards to daemons, I think the designers have always missed a trick with them. Daemons are the most various entities in all the 40K universe. Even Tyranids are bounded by laws of physics, biology etc. Daemons are not; they are shaped by various factors including: the whims of the gods, the aspects of their patron, the preconceptions, fears, dreads and desires of those summoning them etc.

 

In both the Daemon and Chaos Space Marine army list, it should be possible to create your own daemons from a standardised stat line via the application of a limited number of gifts, marks, upgrades etc. This could perhaps be achieved by supplying a standard Slaaneshi, Khornate, Nurglitch and Tzeentchian stat line. from that point they can be upgraded to whatever daemons you wish (traditional or otherwise) via the application of daemonic gifts. This means that, as well as your standard Plague Bearers of Nurgle, you might also have Scions of Decay, Rot Bringers, Children of Pestilence etc etc. The modelling opportunities would be truly glorious, and most appropriate.

 

A similar dynamic may be applied to the various cults/legions in the Chaos Space Marine army list. As mentioned in previous posts, rather than having seperate list entires for each cult, simply allow the standardised application of Chaos Marks across the board, then the ability to further upgrade units/models to members of particular cults/legions via the application of a single ability from a particular list. In the interests of furthering invention, these abilities do not necessarily need to be God or Mark specific, though some may be noted as being particularly redolent of followers of Khorne or whoever (for example, the "Berserker" upgrade may be described as being particularly redolent of followers of Khorne, but not exclusive to them). This would throw the gates wide in terms of potential army background and modelling opportunities, as you could very easily represent divergent cults amongst the followers of particular chaos gods, members of the more mainstream traitor legions who have fallen into the worship of particular gods, fragmented Renegade forces who have their own idiosyncratic cults, philosophies and loyalties etc.

[Epic Thoughts]

Sahaal as a special character.

[Kizzdougs]

Sahaal? Isn't he on the run from his own legion. I can't really imagine him leading a force of chaos space marines. Maybe the Night Lords should get Krieg Acerbus, Talos or the Anointed as a SC, some one who still fights with the legion.

 

A SC for each of the undivided legions would be great.

[Chengar Qordath]

Sahaal? Isn't he on the run from his own legion. I can't really imagine him leading a force of chaos space marines. Maybe the Night Lords should get Krieg Acerbus, Talos or the Anointed as a SC, some one who still fights with the legion.

 

A SC for each of the undivided legions would be great.

Seconded on both points, giving each of the Undivided legions their own SC would give them a much better presence in the next codex; presumably they would be similar to what maverick posted upthread.

[Black Hand]

Something akin to the "Eyes of the Gods" rule in the current FB Chaos Warriors book would be most appropriate; a randomised table that can be rolled on when particular criteria are met for characters and particular units (e.g. Chosen), but which carries with it a certain amount of risk (i.e. if a particular roll is made, your expensive character or an entire unit may end up devolving into hideous Chaos Spawn). Kind of fun and highly appropriate, given the background, not too difficult to implement either.

This would actually be a very cool game dynamic, and I think would be an interesting turn for the CSM codex. The only problem I can see with it is deciding what the criteria would be to trigger a roll on the chart; there's no real challenge dynamic in 40K and simply keeping track of kills made by each Champion/Independent Character could be quite tricky and open to disagreement between players.

 

In both the Daemon and Chaos Space Marine army list, it should be possible to create your own daemons from a standardised stat line via the application of a limited number of gifts, marks, upgrades etc. This could perhaps be achieved by supplying a standard Slaaneshi, Khornate, Nurglitch and Tzeentchian stat line. from that point they can be upgraded to whatever daemons you wish (traditional or otherwise) via the application of daemonic gifts. This means that, as well as your standard Plague Bearers of Nurgle, you might also have Scions of Decay, Rot Bringers, Children of Pestilence etc etc. The modelling opportunities would be truly glorious, and most appropriate.

This also would be really cool to see, and actually would add a great deal to the variation in the codex. Again, there's slight problems as to how to recognise what it is you're fighting, but given that all you have to do is present your opponent with the list of upgrades you've given your daemons and the problem is solved.

 

A similar dynamic may be applied to the various cults/legions in the Chaos Space Marine army list. As mentioned in previous posts, rather than having seperate list entires for each cult, simply allow the standardised application of Chaos Marks across the board, then the ability to further upgrade units/models to members of particular cults/legions via the application of a single ability from a particular list. In the interests of furthering invention, these abilities do not necessarily need to be God or Mark specific, though some may be noted as being particularly redolent of followers of Khorne or whoever (for example, the "Berserker" upgrade may be described as being particularly redolent of followers of Khorne, but not exclusive to them). This would throw the gates wide in terms of potential army background and modelling opportunities, as you could very easily represent divergent cults amongst the followers of particular chaos gods, members of the more mainstream traitor legions who have fallen into the worship of particular gods, fragmented Renegade forces who have their own idiosyncratic cults, philosophies and loyalties etc.

 

This would probably be the most dangerous of the three to implement, as it could be heavily abused by power gamers and generally loathed if it goes wrong. There's a lot of potential for it to be cool, of course, but I think some limits as to what a player could take with each mark would be wise. Perhaps what could go down is that there are two separate upgrade lists: one with general upgrades regardless of mark, and one with mark-specific upgrades. That way, you could still have quite a bit of variance without hopefully allowing supreme abuse of the system. Well, maybe.

[Imperialis_Dominatus]

The way I see it special characters are there to do one of several things. As far as adherence to their faction's popular outlook, there are two general camps.

 

Some characters have the same view on matters of import as their own faction, or act in a fashion in keeping with that faction's nature. Big M.A.C. believes firmly in the Codex and the teachings of his spiritual liege.

 

Other characters are mavericks, who buck the trend of their specific faction. Cassius has, in the past, been shown as a man driven by his hatred of the Tyranids to flaunt the Codex in some ways. Rarer, certainly. Sahaal would be one of these.

 

Some characters are instead designed to provide a cheaper and more effective version of an existing unit. Eldrad, for example. He's a :D: and we won't talk about him.

[TheDarkApostle]

This would actually be a very cool game dynamic, and I think would be an interesting turn for the CSM codex. The only problem I can see with it is deciding what the criteria would be to trigger a roll on the chart; there's no real challenge dynamic in 40K and simply keeping track of kills made by each Champion/Independent Character could be quite tricky and open to disagreement between players.

Not really since we already have a unit which does JUST that.

 

The Nurgle Daemon SC.

 

TDA

[Notanoob]

This would actually be a very cool game dynamic, and I think would be an interesting turn for the CSM codex. The only problem I can see with it is deciding what the criteria would be to trigger a roll on the chart; there's no real challenge dynamic in 40K and simply keeping track of kills made by each Champion/Independent Character could be quite tricky and open to disagreement between players.

Not really since we already have a unit which does JUST that.

 

The Nurgle Daemon SC.

 

TDA

Not exactly. He just tracks all kills made by Nurgle units, which are pretty easy to figure out, especially since he always shows up in themed lists.

[Black Hand]

This would actually be a very cool game dynamic, and I think would be an interesting turn for the CSM codex. The only problem I can see with it is deciding what the criteria would be to trigger a roll on the chart; there's no real challenge dynamic in 40K and simply keeping track of kills made by each Champion/Independent Character could be quite tricky and open to disagreement between players.

Not really since we already have a unit which does JUST that.

 

The Nurgle Daemon SC.

 

TDA

 

True true, but actually keeping track of different kill tallies may become difficult when you have multiple characters to consider. Besides, that's less of a roll-on-the-chart scenario and more of a character's special army rule. Still, something like this modified a bit could work well.

[Brother Hadafix]

Gift of Title could be something as simple as the old Daemonic Stature.

[Chengar Qordath]

The way I see it special characters are there to do one of several things. As far as adherence to their faction's popular outlook, there are two general camps.

 

Some characters have the same view on matters of import as their own faction, or act in a fashion in keeping with that faction's nature. Big M.A.C. believes firmly in the Codex and the teachings of his spiritual liege.

 

Other characters are mavericks, who buck the trend of their specific faction. Cassius has, in the past, been shown as a man driven by his hatred of the Tyranids to flaunt the Codex in some ways. Rarer, certainly. Sahaal would be one of these.

 

Some characters are instead designed to provide a cheaper and more effective version of an existing unit. Eldrad, for example. He's a :cuss: and we won't talk about him.

When it comes to Sahaal, there's a big difference between bucking the trend with your faction and being a renegade on the run from the rest of your faction with absolutely no support from it. Being a Night Lord special character requires actually being capable of leading an army of Night Lords, which Sahaal would not do since he and the legion mutually hate each other.

[TheDarkApostle]

Gift of Title could be something as simple as the old Daemonic Stature.

Indeed, but as we already have a specific unit of Daemon Princes it's rendered redundant.

 

Well, not's not that difficult if you only do it for the SC and then it's 3 pools to keep count of tops.

 

Or you can make it very like the FB rule in that they only get a roll when they kill a IC or MC.

 

I mean, most armies shouldn't have more than a handful of those anyway.

 

TDA