What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[the jeske]

Indeed, but as we already have a specific unit of Daemon Princes it's rendered redundant.

remove the DP , make gift the only way to get a DP , make some or all gifts special [which would give us 1 DP] also with the gift of will we wouldnt need a separate sorc HQ [taking it would give us a pre set of rules . like force weapon , 2 psy powers ] .

also we could bring the animosity back [so no mark mixing] , but for all those who would want to play their NL builds make a gift of dark glory or how ever was the thing in WFB called that demon princes could take to stop animosity.

 

an actualy good idea and by cuting 2HQs we would have a spot for 2 new specials. Not all would be happy but at least technicly it could mean two different builds.

[caboosebe]

also we could bring the animosity back [so no mark mixing] , but for all those who would want to play their NL builds make a gift of dark glory or how ever was the thing in WFB called that demon princes could take to stop animosity.

And for having a Black Legion HQ have special rule of losing that animosity

[TheDarkApostle]

Indeed, but as we already have a specific unit of Daemon Princes it's rendered redundant.

remove the DP , make gift the only way to get a DP , make some or all gifts special [which would give us 1 DP] also with the gift of will we wouldnt need a separate sorc HQ [taking it would give us a pre set of rules . like force weapon , 2 psy powers ] .

also we could bring the animosity back [so no mark mixing] , but for all those who would want to play their NL builds make a gift of dark glory or how ever was the thing in WFB called that demon princes could take to stop animosity.

 

an actualy good idea and by cuting 2HQs we would have a spot for 2 new specials. Not all would be happy but at least technicly it could mean two different builds.

I think we're on to something good here jeske!

 

TDA

[the jeske]

upps wrote NL wanted to write BL.

[Brother Hadafix]

I am sure that DP are mor than just a bit of a stat change on a Chaos Lord/Sorc/Ltwho have swollowed something that Alice had to be a little bit bigger.

[TheDarkApostle]

Indeed, but as we already have a specific unit of Daemon Princes it's rendered redundant.

remove the DP , make gift the only way to get a DP , make some or all gifts special [which would give us 1 DP] also with the gift of will we wouldnt need a separate sorc HQ [taking it would give us a pre set of rules . like force weapon , 2 psy powers ] .

also we could bring the animosity back [so no mark mixing] , but for all those who would want to play their NL builds make a gift of dark glory or how ever was the thing in WFB called that demon princes could take to stop animosity.

 

an actualy good idea and by cuting 2HQs we would have a spot for 2 new specials. Not all would be happy but at least technicly it could mean two different builds.

Actually expanding on this there could be a Gift of Title granting Eternal Warrior as well.

 

That way, you can get EW without being a Prince, just as you can have a Prince without EW.

[the jeske]

I think to make us different from SW I would limit EW to specials , but I would give it to more then just one . Khârn and maybe lucius + as it was said before we have 2 slots free.

both should be used to modify our FoC a lot . One maybe buffing/making our FA more playable and other allowing to make a more "elite" army . At least that is the tendency meq dex have nowadays.

[Black Hand]

Indeed, but as we already have a specific unit of Daemon Princes it's rendered redundant.

remove the DP , make gift the only way to get a DP , make some or all gifts special [which would give us 1 DP] also with the gift of will we wouldnt need a separate sorc HQ [taking it would give us a pre set of rules . like force weapon , 2 psy powers ] .

also we could bring the animosity back [so no mark mixing] , but for all those who would want to play their NL builds make a gift of dark glory or how ever was the thing in WFB called that demon princes could take to stop animosity.

 

an actualy good idea and by cuting 2HQs we would have a spot for 2 new specials. Not all would be happy but at least technicly it could mean two different builds.

 

Isn't that how Princes worked in the old codex? I kinda like that they're separate now.

But yeah, I like the Animosity rule, and the balance to it you've added. That actually sounds like it could work really well.

[Lord_Caerolion]

both should be used to modify our FoC a lot . One maybe buffing/making our FA more playable

 

No. Please no. Them doing that will just make the Night Lord special character be Raptor McRaptor, with his Raptor Claws, who makes Raptors count as Troops. Fast Attack should just be made better in general, and not have to result to butchering the Night Lords background once more to "MOAR RAPTORS!!1!"

 

But yes, DPs should be seperate again.

[Zeller]

The traitors fight with basic marines, terminators, and grit. The NL, IW, and AL are rather more unique than the other traitor legions in the way the fight. Maybe have a generic "build an hq" system.

 

Undivided Marine commander trait (applies to all non-god aligned CSM). "Let the Galaxy Burn": All CSM with this special rule have preferred enemy when fighting loyalist space marine chapters excluding grey knights. These battle hardened veterans have seen thousands of worlds destroyed in the name of Chaos as well as the horrors inherent in their destruction. As a result CSM may re-reroll all morale, pinning, and leadership tests they are called upon to make.

 

NL-esque commander would have access to jump packs, army wide trait allowing raptors and bikes as HS. CSM squads of 10 must select a rhino from the dedicated transport section at a cost of X points. They will have a 15 reduction or something to account for their favoring rapid strikes and a propensity of rhino transports. On the turn a NL squad assaults a squad the enemy squad must pass a LD test or fight with a WS and I that is reduced by X. This represents the NL either terrifying their opponent (guard most likely) or getting the jump and capilising on their surprise attack.

 

IW-esque commander would have an army wide trait that allows havocs to be taken as fast attack, oblits would move to elite, vindicators have 15 reduction in cost for IW or something. Dreadnoughts can be taken in groups of 3 per elite slot. They are bought, upgraded, and fielded independenlty though they only take up one elite slot. IW dreads are able to be fitted with some kind of siege hammer. All IW units have tank hunters.

 

AL-esque commader grants army trait that allows AL marines to infiltrate. All marines would have stealth. No chaos fast attack options. Instead, AL may take cultists with infiltrate and move through cover. Each cultist squad may purchase a demo charge at X points for every 10 models. Alternatively, instead of placing the cultists on the field the player may opt to place markers that represent the squads. The markers may be moved around the field as normal. When fired upon the player must reveal if the token is really a squad or just a distraction. Each squad of cultists is given 3 tokens to represent it. The controlling player chooses 1 of those 3 tokens to actually be the unit while the other two become decoys. If the decoy is destroyed simply remove the token from the field. If the actual squad is shot at then place them on the field immediately. They must be within 6 inches of the markers location. Each cultist squad may purchase CSM to bolster their ability. He will increase their LD from 7 to 10.

 

WB-esque commander grants makes the army fearless when called upon to take a LD test due to shooting casualties. Terminator squads become increase their size from 3-10 to 3-20. WB commander makes all units within 6" fearless. (kind of redundant) May select any demons fromt he C:D troops section as troops. These demons do not take up FOC slots. All CSM squads come with an IoCG free. The IoCG allows demons to be summoned within 6" of the banner. In addition, the banner adds +2 to determining combat resolution. The power of Chaos flows through the banner and the warriors surrounding it. To assault the squad an enemy must first make a LD test at -1. No Oblits. Possessed marines gain fleet, move through cover, and beasts. Increase cost. Roll for rage?

 

Nurgle Predator: Turret mounted bile cannon. Place the flame template so that the small end is at least 12 inches away from the barrel. The maximum range is 24". All models under the template are wounded on a 4+, AP4, re-roll wounds. The hull of this vehicle is bloated - more alive than machine at this point. As a result a Nurgle predator has 2 wounds in addition to its normal amor values. An enemy wishing to destroy one of these vehicles will find they are exceptionally durable. A wound is removed each time the vehicle suffers a destroyed or explosion result.

 

Khorne Predator: Fanatical crew and demon enhanced mechanisms. This vehicle has an increased fire rate to all of its weapons. Each weapon on the vehicle becomes twin linked. If the weapon was already twin-linked in it's profile it games +1 shot instead. The vehicle inflicts 2D6 str3 hits on a squad assaulting it.

 

Slaanesh Predator: Turret mounted sonic weapons. 36", Large Blast, S6, AP 4. Pinning at -2 to LD. Not stackable with other modifiers. Models wishing to attack the vehicle in melee will find themselves enveloped in a sweet musk that seems to float around the tank. Squads wishing to assault the tank must take a LD at -3. If this test is failed they do not move, instead the assault is treated as a failed assault.

 

Tzeentch Predator: The vehicles weapons are charged with the volatile energies of Chaos. All weapons gain the re-roll to wound ability. When rolling on the damage chart subtract 1 from the result to a minimum of 1. The ever twisting and madness ridden hull is covered in leering faces, eyes, and bizarre twisting shapes constantly reforming. The vehicle is difficult to penetrate. Enemies must roll to see the vehicle as though night fighting were in effect. Accute senses has no effect on this roll. The vehicle is constantly shimmering and appears to be there one moment and dissappear into thin air the next. Tzeentch's guile knows no bound.

 

Just some ideas.

[Lord_Caerolion]

NL-esque commander would have access to jump packs, army wide trait allowing raptors and bikes as HS. CSM squads of 10 must select a rhino from the dedicated transport section at a cost of X points. They will have a 15 reduction or something to account for their favoring rapid strikes and a propensity of rhino transports.

 

*twitch*

 

Keep the morale-dropping stuff, but as for this, please no. Only 3.5 brought in the "FA loving" side of Night Lords, everything else has them not really preferring it over anything else, instead favouring a single heavy-handed strike. As for their "propensity of Rhino's", nothing has ever, ever mentioned that Night Lords love Rhino's, or that they have more, and it's bad enough being told "Night Lords? Just take Raptors!" without it becoming "Night Lords? Just take Raptors and Rhinos!"

 

Night Lords aren't just the Chaos Raven Guard/White Scar wannabe's. The 4 FA/1 HS thing got brought in just so the Iron Warriors could have an opposite, even though it meant going against Night Lords background.

[Notanoob]

Night Lords aren't just the Chaos Raven Guard/White Scar wannabe's. The 4 FA/1 HS thing got brought in just so the Iron Warriors could have an opposite, even though it meant going against Night Lords background.

Well...more like they just added stuff to fill the space. The Night Lords just didn't have that many fluff elements that could be used in game, so they added some.

 

Anyways, I'm sure that the "HQ=force" builder is doomed to fail in Chaos, as it would push mono-legion stuff and all those renegades players would whine. This kind of idea works for SM chapters, but the diversity in Chaos means that it wouldn't work nearly as well.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Anyways, I'm sure that the "HQ=force" builder is doomed to fail in Chaos, as it would push mono-legion stuff and all those renegades players would whine. This kind of idea works for SM chapters, but the diversity in Chaos means that it wouldn't work nearly as well.

 

Not really. Just include the standard text-box they always have now, saying "While Abaddon or X might already be named, and from Legion Y, that doesn't stop you being able to rename him as Lord Blah from the renegade Chapter of Spikiness".

 

It also means that the people who want their fully diverse Chaos can use the BL stuff, whereas people who want to specialise can choose to do so.

 

As for the Night Lords, there's a difference between "filling the space" and changing "Night Lords prefer single overwhelming attacks" to "the Night Lords would rather win hundreds of smaller battles than pin everything on one big one," and using that as justification for loving raids.

[Zeller]

I got the rhino idea from a short story I read years back in the back of a novel. It was about NL in rhinos crossing a bridge that was contested by loyalists or guard. I don't remember which. I think a techmarine ended up blowing the bridge when he got stuck beneath it or something like that. Anyway, that's that.

 

I'm not comparing them to loyalists so there is a 1-1 vs a chaos-loyalist. Aside from their apparent obsession with HQ's with jump packs in novels I can't offer a better example of Batman than that. Regular CSM on the ground with their skull visage and bat wing helmets just doesn't strike me as something that will strike terror as readily as that same thing dropping from the sky and eviscerating you with 8 talons. Then again, perhaps I've misinterpreted the NL. Suggest away. I never understood their terror tactics. It may work in the jungle or hives against humans and orks but I don't see their use outside of close quarter environments.

[techsoldaten]

The problems with the latest edition of the Codex are a little deeper than the way they are being explained here. From my observations, these issues break into a few categories:

 

1) There is no economic balance with the cost of some units compared to equivalents in other army lists.

 

2) Reserve rules build in a level of uncertainty that is unique to Chaos.

 

3) Access to psychic powers is low compared to other army lists.

 

4) Some units simply have no tactical use on the battlefield.

 

I get the sense GW made this one of the first 5th edition Codexes they wrote, and the urge to build on others after the fact has lead to a situation where the value of a CSM army has been gradually diminished. There are too many things going on which make it a disincentive to use certain troops under any circumstances, and this is not a feature of other Codexes to the extent it is with Chaos.

 

To begin with, about half the army list makes complete sense. CSMs, Havoks, Rhinos, Land Raiders, Defilers, Obliterators, and most of the cult troops are still good choices for an Army (I don't think anyone disagrees strongly with these points). They show up in most Army lists and have tactical value. Vinidicators, Predators, Bikers, and Terminators all have marginal value, where there is some flaw that limits their overall usefulness but not to the point where people would want to avoid them entirely.

 

The real concerns are over the units that are just too unreliable to spend points on. Often, they suffer from special rules that make it too hard to use them, or they simply lack access to powers their peers on other lists possess. In some cases, this defeats the idea of using the character on both an economic basis and on a fluff basis (like, why would this guy have gone Chaos in the first place if that is all he was going to get?).

 

There is no Economic Balance with the Cost of Some Units Compared to Equivalents in Other Army Lists

 

Look at the Dreadnought. Marines have the same unit for 15 points more with more armor, you can buy an extra armor upgrade on the CSM edition to achieve parity. So it's the same unit, BUT you also get the burden of the Crazed rule and go without a multi-melta that comes with the marine version. Every turn, you have a 17% chance of attacking your own troops. By choosing a CSM dreadnought, you are putting yourself at an economic disadvantage compared to the loyalists.

 

Look at CSM bikers. A squad of 3 costs 10 points more than their Marine equivalents, without getting the special rules associated with them. The cost to add more bikers is 8 points less for the Marines than a CSM squad. This means it costs 66 points more for a CSM 10 man squad than a marine squad, and you don't get as many benefits.

 

Look at Raptors versus Assault Marines. The basic cost of a 5-man raptor squad and an assault marine squad is the same, but then there is a 2 point differential in favor of the marines for each man added. It can amount to a total of 10 points in difference, which is no so bad, except that you have to consider the special rules Marines get for upgrades.

 

This should change. There is no justification for putting players at an econonmic disadvantage based on their choice of army. Points are a reflection of firepower, not fluff. While I appreciate the fact points costs must be balanced based on specific options available in each army in order to achieve balance, this is too severe. Chaos players often simply ignore these units entirely. If you think about it, if a Chaos player shows up with an Army that includes Dreads, Bikers and Raptors, all a marine player would need to do is mirror that army to get a 35 - 150 point advantage just based on how it is constructed. There is nothing clever about this, it's a defect in design.

 

Before anyone responds by saying CSM Land Raiders and Terminators are cheaper, the cost of these units makes it hard to gain some kind of an advantage. Given the points cost, it would be hard to press the economic advantage of either of these units in a battle, and there are tactics specific to the troops on the Marine side that make this a waste. For instance, overload on assault marines, come after the extra land raider with meltas.

 

Reserve Rules Build in a Level of Uncertainty that is Unique to Chaos

 

Reserve rules are designed to relfect units arriving on the board after combat has started. In general, this is a good principle. Chaos daemons, in previous editions, were summoned. This gave armies some additional strategic control over where and when a unit would appear, and was far more useful than simple reserve rules because it was mostly under the control of the character (as opposed to being random based on dice roles). This change has subtly nerfed the value of Chaos demons and other units arriving from reserve at the same time.

 

The big advantage to coming in from reserve is the Deep Strike. You don't need you terminators, for instance, to foot slog across the table. All you need to do is bring up a model with a personal icon, and those units appear in the turn they are selected. This is great, but it introduces an element of randomness that makes it hard to utilize these units.

 

Daemons are different from other deep striking units, because they depend on proximity or the existance of other units. You are not waiting for deep strike to occur, you are waiting for deep strike and you are hoping you have a captain or a banner on the field in order to place your units. You must place them at a certain point on the table, whereas other deep striking units can place themselves anywhere.

 

This limitation is unique to Chaos and, unfortunately, affects some of the most powerful units in the game. It severely hampers their strategic value and leads to a sitation where they can only be so useful. Either remove the deep strike rule or remove the dependencies on placement associated with summoning. There is no need to add to the power of these units or change the point cost, it's the summoning that makes them unwiedy.

 

Access to Psychic Powers is Low Compared to Other Army Lists

 

Chaos psykers are limited to powers of an offensive nature. There is nothing there to sustain their own troops, the powers are simply there to blow away the enemy. Fine, this is something most people can live with.

 

But look at what Blood Angels can do with the Blood Lance. Look at what Space Wolves can do with the Jaws of the World Wolf. Chaos powers are limited in range and power in a way that makes these abilities seem overpowered.

 

Why would a power mad sorceror of Chaos persue gifts that pale in comparison with the power of librarians? This doesn't make sense from the standpoint of psychology. Where it really breaks down is in terms of points: a Blood Angels librarian with that lance costs 10 points less than a Sorceror with Doombolt. Come on.

 

Some Units Simply have no Tactical Use on the Battlefield

 

Dreadnoughts, Possessed, Spawn, and Daemons have no tactical use on the battlefield. Each of these units is unpredictable in it's own way and it is impossible to plan on how to use them before the start of a battle.

 

In the case of Dreadnoughts, you have a chance of losing control of them. Turning them into mobile gun stations, which the weapons options suggest, is useless from the standpoint of a commander looking to deploy forces. The same with the possessed, but in a different way. You don't know what you are going to get until the game is underway. For Spawn, they are simply going to march forward and are relatively easy to avoid - the mindless rule means a unit could march backwards from 7 inches away and simply shoot them to death. Daemons are the same way, you never really know when or where they are going to appear and often do not.

 

These units need to be reconsidered so they can be used in CSM army lists. While randomness should play a role in playing the game, it should not play a role in how points are allocated - points are the way we ensure some level of parity within the game. I have not seen many Army lists that include these units, and the ones I have seen are rarely used. It's a shame, because these are some of the best looking models available for CSM armies.

[d@n]

I think to make us different from SW I would limit EW to specials , but I would give it to more then just one . Khârn and maybe lucius + as it was said before we have 2 slots free.

both should be used to modify our FoC a lot . One maybe buffing/making our FA more playable and other allowing to make a more "elite" army . At least that is the tendency meq dex have nowadays.

giving Khârn EW would to totally unbalanced. you just couldnt kill him.

[caboosebe]

I think to make us different from SW I would limit EW to specials , but I would give it to more then just one . Khârn and maybe lucius + as it was said before we have 2 slots free.

both should be used to modify our FoC a lot . One maybe buffing/making our FA more playable and other allowing to make a more "elite" army . At least that is the tendency meq dex have nowadays.

giving Khârn EW would to totally unbalanced. you just couldnt kill him.

And now you kill him as easy as hell.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Access to Psychic Powers is Low Compared to Other Army Lists

 

Chaos psykers are limited to powers of an offensive nature. There is nothing there to sustain their own troops, the powers are simply there to blow away the enemy. Fine, this is something most people can live with.

 

I would also add in that Chaos psykers also have zero psychic defenses, as compared to their SM counterparts.

[Brother Aiwass]

Very good stuff in this thread. I want to give my own vision (this is wishlisting after all).

 

WARNING: INCOMING WALL OF TEXT

 

As for the "base list" I'll happily would give an arm -metaphorically ofc- if that was something like the Tyrant's Legion of the IA 9. I'm fine with 'guard' part of the list. Now, to the work, my take on chaos sm.

 

First of all, the "centurion"/lieutenant is a must imho. And that will remain in place. I also want to keep the Icon sistem only for the 'guard' grunts of that list. Marines need true marks.

 

Tha Marks of Chaos:

 

There are 5 grand marks, undivided (not undecided anymore), khorne, nurgle, slaanesh & tzeentch.

 

Chaos undivided/Chaos glory: This is the purest mark of chaos, the glory of the gods. That mark will grant to the marines *heresy incoming* And They Shall Know No Fear and combat tactics. Yes, that's it, I said it. The fact that GW says the chaos marines are like chicken searching to preserve their lives just sucks. They LIVE in the **** WARP, with daemons, daemon princes, chaos spawn, greater daemons and Matt Ward. They can't be afraid of nothing, they are the Fear incarnate. HQ Lords also gains Orbital Bombardment.

 

Slaanesh: Mark grants Fearless, +1Init like in the current dex. Chaos marines,characters and Daemon Princes with MoS becomes Noise Marines unlocking 'noise' wargear.

 

Tzeentch: Mark grants Fearless and +1 invul save (like in the current dex). Sorcerers with MoS can roll 3D6 for their psychic tests and pick the two lowests results.

 

Nurgle: Fearless and +(1)T. Chaos marines, characters and Daemon Princes with MoN become plague marines and gains poisoned attacks in close combat.

 

Khorne: Fearless and +1 attack. Chaos marines, characters and Daemon Princes with MoK become berzerkers and increase their WS or BS in 1.

 

LEGION UPGRADES:

 

One of your HQ options (Chaos Lords, Chaos Sorcerer or Daemon Princes) can upgrade your army to a one of the Traitor Legions. If a Legion upgrade is taked, no other Legion upgrades can be taked. I'm sorry recent renegades, the big things are only for the big ones.

 

Death Guard Legion: Only the MoN can be taked in the army. No other marks are allowed.

 

Plague marines of the DG gain FNP, because their nervous system is rotten and they actually can't feel the pain, and Slow & Pourposeful (sp?). DG plague marines are surrounded by a Pestilence Miasma: Any non Death Guard model within 6" of a DG PM toxic miasma takes one S3 AP- hit in every shooting phase. Any army of DG can field Blight Drones as Fast Attack choice.

 

Word Bearers: Only the MoCG is allowed to characters. Any other unit can take any mark.

 

The Chaos Lord of the WB becomes a Demagogue (only one Demagogue in the army is allowed), change his close combat weapon to a Cursed Crozius (energy weapon, +2 strenght). Demagogues allow upgrade the unit champions to "Chaplains" (see codex space marines for special rules, only MoCG is allowed to chaplains and the unit he leads).

 

In addition the WB marines can re-roll any failed Ld test.

 

Night Lords: Only the MoCG is allowed in the army. No other marks are allowed.

 

If a NL Chaos Lord is present the NL marines lose combat tactics and gains the Hit & Run USR. In addition, any champion and characters can take Trophy Racks (wargear: Any enemy unit within 6" must take -1 to any Ld tests) and/or Death Masks (wargear: any enemy unit assaulted by one or more unit equiped with death masks must take a Ld test or reduce his Initiative value to 1 to the rest of the assault phase).

 

Alpha Legion: Only the MoCG is allowed in the army. No other marks are allowed.

 

If an AL Lord is present, the AL marines lose combat tactics and gains the Infiltrate(sp?) USR, in addition any AL marine can re-roll when deep strike and/or when rolling for reserves/outflank. Any AL army can take "scouts" as Troops or "motorized scouts" as Fast Attack (see c:sm for rules).

 

Emperor's Children Legion: Only the MoS can be taked in the army. No other marks are allowed.

 

Noise Marines of the EC also gain FNP because they're insane masochist and don't care so much about pain. EC Noise Marines broadcast a Psychic Cacophony: if psyker is within 12" of a EC's NM squad or character and fail the psychic test must roll 1D6, with a result of 4, 5 or 6 must take a wound that can't be saved by saves of any kind.

 

The Iron Warriors: Only the MoCG is allowed in the army. No other marks are allowed.

 

The Chaos Lord of the IW becomes a Warsmith (only one Warsmith in the army is allowed, see c:sm Master of The Forge for rules). Any IW character or champion can take a servo-arm or full servo-harness (characters only), see c:sm techmarines for rules. In addition the IW marines lose ATSKNF and gains the Stubborn USR. Furthermore, when a IW is assaulting an enemy unit in cover count as having Furious Charge USR. Any champion can be upgraded to Obliterator Cult.

 

The Thousand Sons: Only the MoT is allowed in the army. No other marks are allowed.

 

The Chaos Sorcerers of the TS can use two psychic powers per turn and they have The Farsight of Tzeentch: Any enemy psyker within 24" must make his psychic tests rolling 3D6 and taking the two highest results. In addition any psyker (even the TS sorcerers) within the Farsight of Tzeentch who takes Perils of the Warp and takes one wound is now a Chaos Spawn under the control of the TS player. TS sorcerers can avoid turn into a Chaos Spawn removing 1D6 Rubric Marines from play.

 

The TS chaos marines are Rubric Marines. Rubric marines are Relentless and use Hellfire rounds, also have the FNP USR because they're no living creatures anymore.

 

The Black Legion: Only the MoCG is allowed to characters. Any other unit can take any mark.

 

The Chaos Lord of the BL becomes a Warmaster. The Warmaster can take a retinue of Chosen or Chosen Terminators, that unit does not count against your HQ slots. One model of the retinue may carry the Legion Banner (wargear: any BL marine within 24" of the banner gains the Counter-Attack USR). A BL army can take Defilers in squadrons of 1-3 as Heavy Support choice.

 

The World Eaters: Only the MoK is allowed in the army. No other marks are allowed.

 

WE berzerkers became insane psychopath in the lust of the battle and gain the FNP USR, because they don't care about the pain and the Furiuos Charge USR (which no need explanation). So great is his urge for blood that besides being infantry, may move and assault like Cavalry. A WE army can take Blood Slaughterers as a Heavy Support choice.

 

My initial intention was to write a overview over the CSM units but then i realized how much I've written, so i have to say: TO BE CONTINUED...

[the jeske]

Night Lords aren't just the Chaos Raven Guard/White Scar wannabe's. The 4 FA/1 HS thing got brought in just so the Iron Warriors could have an opposite, even though it meant going against Night Lords background.

well BA arent about RAS and fast rhinos too , in fact in most of their old fluff they were told to have a full codex composition of companies[considering the RAS used then the last two codex werent very fluffy then]. Same with NL . one option is to give them better raptors/bikes , which does not contradict the NL fluff . NL had more raptor then any other legion. Another option would be to work with the whole psychology aspect of the legion . So bring back something like the old demonic visague from 3.5 [NL only to make them special. so you take a NL special HQ your squads force a -1Ld on units in hth] or go the 3ed craftworld dex way and give NL a pre battle table to check what effect they had on the enemy army pre battle [this could be simplifed to . roll d6 for each unit/tank/Mc on roll of 1 they are moved in to reservs or something like that].

[Zeller]

I see the logic in it but I'd like to not see very infantry unit in the game having FNP. Maybe work something like the token system with the EC.

[the jeske]

problem is the token system for DE doesnt work . they need homonculi and those dreads they have[forgot the name] to make it semi viable .

 

but I also agree that there shouldnt be two different troop choice with FnP in the same list. I would rather see zerkers with rage or even fleet [possible no mecha build then] then with FnP .

[Lord_Caerolion]

well BA arent about RAS and fast rhinos too , in fact in most of their old fluff they were told to have a full codex composition of companies[considering the RAS used then the last two codex werent very fluffy then].

Which is why I'm not entirely happy with the reason they get their own codex. A simple Chapter Tactics of "every model gets FC, Vets can buy FC and FNP" would satisfy all the divergences of the Blood Angels.

 

Same with NL . one option is to give them better raptors/bikes , which does not contradict the NL fluff . NL had more raptor then any other legion.

They have more, that still doesn't make them common. Raptors were still uncommon, as an increase from, say, 1% Legion strength being Raptors to 5% is still "more than any other Legion", but still nowhere near "every Warband is half comprised of Raptors". I just don't believe that Night Lords had that many Raptors.

 

Another option would be to work with the whole psychology aspect of the legion . So bring back something like the old demonic visague from 3.5 [NL only to make them special. so you take a NL special HQ your squads force a -1Ld on units in hth] or go the 3ed craftworld dex way and give NL a pre battle table to check what effect they had on the enemy army pre battle [this could be simplifed to . roll d6 for each unit/tank/Mc on roll of 1 they are moved in to reservs or something like that].

 

This is definitely the route they should go for Night Lords. It's a workable method of integrating the terror tactics of the Legion, which is a better way of presenting what makes the Night Lords "Night Lords". Their unique take on warfare is terror tactics, not hit-and-run raids with bikes and Raptors.

[the jeske]

They have more, that still doesn't make them common.

what did they have post heresy 7-10 grand companies in the legion ? this means every 7th to 10th NL was a raptor. that is common to me. If they were fewer , they would be gone by now , they would be unable to sustain the tech and the attrition of war in the eye . They would not be even able to scavange the tech from imperials , because loyalists lost jump packs for some time and the tech they use now is different from the jet packs raptors use .

 

This is definitely the route they should go for Night Lords. It's a workable method of integrating the terror tactics of the Legion, which is a better way of presenting what makes the Night Lords "Night Lords". Their unique take on warfare is terror tactics, not hit-and-run raids with bikes and Raptors.

well problem is we have to remeber that wishful thining is not something that is going to happen . no armies have tables or pre battle phase in 5th ed and from the looks of it no will [unless its something like roll for each unit on 1 something happens]. The options are a BL dex the way it is now with maybe 3 maybe 4 specials , some changes to icons [bought for unit or that they get picked up etc] or we get a dex that gives us actualy different builds , with different game play.

 

Which is why I'm not entirely happy with the reason they get their own codex. A simple Chapter Tactics of "every model gets FC, Vets can buy FC and FNP" would satisfy all the divergences of the Blood Angels.

I on the other hand like the idea that the "one codex to rule them all" idea died . the :cuss storm we had about chaos sm would have been nothing compering to what would have happened if all sm had a single dex.

Even from game play point of view it would mean they would end up with maybe one or two builds and that would be boring .

[Rik Riorik]

I like to own all the different Codii and I've now got all of them from 3rd edition and onwards with a few of the 2nd edition ones as well for good measure. The three last ones I've bought are the Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar and Space Wolves Codii and boy are they a cousin twice or further removed from the Chaos Space Marines.

 

There's things I don't like about these Codii, the fact that they are littered with special rules here there and everywhere making a right mess. They do feel more than a bit convoluted in comparison to a rather slick Codex: CSM. But still if this is the direction we're going in I think that when the Chaos dex finally does come around for a tinkering that we'll be having something a lot more interesting to make our forces with than what is currently on offer with Codex: CSM.

 

I don't really mind the 'dex we've got, I just find that there are a lot more interesting ones out there :D.

 

But there are some interesting thoughts going about here.