What do you want in the next "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" ?

[RapatoR]

After reding a few posts I think that most useful soluton would be to divide CSM to two codices:

Chaos Space marines (sensus stricto), where we would get more deamon engines, chaos gifts, deamons, maybe even new lesser chaos gods. That book would suit chapters who fully embrance chaos.

Renegade Space marines which would suit chapters whose betrayed Imperium, but use chaos as mere tool or dont use it at all. This would allow players to field Loyalists stuff as Land speeder, new patterns of LR and so on, and to differ it from SM dex it could contain pre-heresy stuff or new inventions of Renegades, generic deamons and some basic chaos stuff and maybe even some alien mercenaries (as Kroot??).

[Legatus]

Honestly, I think there does not need to be a "Codex Renegades". They are a minority force, and even all added together would not have the numbers the original Traitor Legions have. There are about 50 renegade Chapters IIRC (or even just "have been" in the past 10,000 years), which would be about 50,000 Astartes, while there are nine Traitor Legions, which even taking the smaller GW numbers would be 90,000 Astartes. That is of course assuming that both factions are at about maximum strength, which they probably aren't.

I mean, there could be a Codex for such a minor force. There is a Codex for Grey Knights and for Tau, after all. But Renegade Marines could reasonably well be represented by a "Codex Chaos Legions" without taking too much of the cult units. It would simply save a lot of resources to make them a footnote in the "Codex Chaos Legions" and point out that they are not as daemon heavy as the traitor Legions are.

 

I'd say make the Marks given to CSM units permanent and the current Codex is fine. The choices to do the undivided Legions are already there. With permanent marks you could reasonably well represent the cult forces. The minor fact that "true Berserkers" have WS 5 and furious charge, while "Cult Terminators" and "Cult Bikers" merely have +1 Attack is forgivable. Maybe have the Cult Marks make the squad fearless as well.

A few minor adjustments in point costs or unit rules and we are done.

[Hellios]

So the whole point of those sub lists was that you could play as vanilla chaos if you wanted but they also had ideas that represented the legion but would have been unbalanced if applied to the list in general...

I'd say that the current Codex more or less disproves this - something like 90% of the applicable Legion-specific special rules were folded into the main list, but you hardly hear about the IW/Berserker combo burning up the tournament scene.

 

 

Ummm 5th ed isn't the same as 3rd/4th ed so what would have made a good list then might not be so good now... also you can't make the old HS and oblits up the wazoo list like you used to be able to do anyway...

 

and no... nowhere near 90% of the the legion rules exist in the new dex... However in the old dex you could play Word bearers with cult troops if you wanted... you only had that restriction if you used the world bearers rule set.

[Brother Nihm]

Sahaal? Isn't he on the run from his own legion. I can't really imagine him leading a force of chaos space marines. Maybe the Night Lords should get Krieg Acerbus, Talos or the Anointed as a SC, some one who still fights with the legion.

 

A SC for each of the undivided legions would be great.

Seconded on both points, giving each of the Undivided legions their own SC would give them a much better presence in the next codex; presumably they would be similar to what maverick posted upthread.

Full on Night Lords like Krieg or Tarraq would be most appropriate imho.

 

I really like the idea of the Eyes of the Gods system as well, maybe not as random, but something that changes the organizational structure (while remaining viable) to reflect the chain of command (and the nature of the leader, e.g. Legion).

 

Ya'know, 5th ed. Codex variety.

[Full Metal Racket]

I converted and modeled a lot of my minitures on the 3rd edition codex regulations and specifics, that was after I remodeled from the 2nd edition Codex

example, my custom converted possessed who were very deadly in CC (2003-4) my Asp Champ consisted of: Mutations +1 Att. (to show they were possessed), Custom Doom Siren, Power Weapon & CCW.

check here for pics

Now those models are useless going by the 4th edition 1 CCW rules.

when they released the 4th codex I had a quick read at GW store and I gave up, having to remodel the specifics of my army once again. . .

now after 3-4 years of not doing anything with it I just model and paint to some degree of what looks good as chaos noise marines.

They need to really rethink what chaos is about and how players have structured their armies in the past and include all that has come to pass.

 

[/my 2 cents]

[hummus]

they could keep the current codex to represent renegades and bring in a new codex for legions

and have some kind of allies system built in for demons like they have for the current inquisition codexes

say 0-1 hq 0-1elite 0-2 troops 0-1 fast

that way a deathguard army could have pbearers nurglings and a beast

[RapatoR]

Honestly, I think there does not need to be a "Codex Renegades". They are a minority force, and even all added together would not have the numbers the original Traitor Legions have. There are about 50 renegade Chapters IIRC (or even just "have been" in the past 10,000 years), which would be about 50,000 Astartes, while there are nine Traitor Legions, which even taking the smaller GW numbers would be 90,000 Astartes. That is of course assuming that both factions are at about maximum strength, which they probably aren't.

I mean, there could be a Codex for such a minor force. There is a Codex for Grey Knights and for Tau, after all. But Renegade Marines could reasonably well be represented by a "Codex Chaos Legions" without taking too much of the cult units. It would simply save a lot of resources to make them a footnote in the "Codex Chaos Legions" and point out that they are not as daemon heavy as the traitor Legions are.

 

I'd say make the Marks given to CSM units permanent and the current Codex is fine. The choices to do the undivided Legions are already there. With permanent marks you could reasonably well represent the cult forces. The minor fact that "true Berserkers" have WS 5 and furious charge, while "Cult Terminators" and "Cult Bikers" merely have +1 Attack is forgivable. Maybe have the Cult Marks make the squad fearless as well.

A few minor adjustments in point costs or unit rules and we are done.

I probably explained it in wrong way, both of these codices could represent Legions, in Chaos space marines there could be Legions which embrace and worship chaos as 4 Gods legions and maybe BL and WB and second could represent NL AL and IW as they dont use choas so extensively, but usually can be found fighting alongside aliens, looting SM weapons/armour and so on...

EDIT:

And I almost forgot. I think there is one some struggles for Legion - specific lists:

It threatens to kill diversity I know, that this codex has 1 playable list, but still, there should be somethink to avoid players building just and only Legion lists (there should be something that would encourage players to built other traitor marines) and avoid to 1 playable list to be aviable for 1 Legion.

 

Second problem is that 3,5ed dex allowed to built mixmatched Legions warband pulled togedher by magnetism of especially strong/charismatic lord. For example you could claim: Well I have warband of AL with small detachment of WE and you could really build it: You could field AL undivided lord, Zerks as elites and with Furious charge as veteran skill and you could have infiltrate on rest of your army via veteran skills (although for bigger point cost). But suggestions for Legions specific lists in this topic ignore that option,

[ShotgunFacelift]

Agreed with Rapator, I dont think renegades need a seperate Dex, just specific unit limitations and access to certain other units because of this.

 

I dont find the Codex to be un-playable, just not the same as it was in previous versions.

 

I'm pretty basic when it comes to the changes:

1. Re-Costing

(the ability to field more models in a unit, to match the comparitive model counts of other SM armies)

 

2. Legion specific special units and army configs

(All death guard armies get "this special unit / character" but cannot use certain units [tSons], or meet a minimum of "this" unit)

Example: Plague Marines or Zerkers reduced in per model cost "if" certain criteria are met

 

3. Legion Specific Daemons and greater daemons

 

4. Special characters that allow specific army builds (loganwing, DE character that makes helions troops)

 

5. Psychic power defense

(we are the chosen of the Chaos gods, but cant stop another psyker from using their powers?)

 

6. More customization options

(similar to how Wolf Guard are used in the SW Codex)

 

I would really like to be able to field chaos cultists or renegade guard, but that would leave way to many possible avenues for list abuse.

[David the Despoiler]

So in a renegade list people want...

 

~Loyalist weapons / tech

 

~Decreased effectiveness in comparison to the Legionnaires

 

~No cult units

 

Why don't people just use Codex: Space Marines to represent renegades? Because I think that ATSKNF would still apply to a renegade fighting for an ideal he truly believes in (that the Emperor is a false deity or whathaveyou). They didn't lose their Combat Tactics instantly after they renounced the Imperium. A Space Marine still has the abilities and talents that have been ingrained in him through years of training. The Chaos Legions,I understand, they went under a whole different kind of training / recruitment regime. But the point still stands that Codex: Renegades exists already. It's the Space Wolves dex, the Space Marines dex, the Black Templar dex, the Dark Angels dex.

 

Codex: Chaos Space Marines should not be about the Renegades. It should be about the Legionnaires.

[DerekLee688]

I'd like to see cultists. In short, the 40k gaming comunity isn't getting enough cultist death, not counting Renegade guard using count as IG rules.

[RapatoR]

So in a renegade list people want...

 

~Loyalist weapons / tech

 

~Decreased effectiveness in comparison to the Legionnaires

 

~No cult units

 

Why don't people just use Codex: Space Marines to represent renegades? Because I think that ATSKNF would still apply to a renegade fighting for an ideal he truly believes in (that the Emperor is a false deity or whathaveyou). They didn't lose their Combat Tactics instantly after they renounced the Imperium. A Space Marine still has the abilities and talents that have been ingrained in him through years of training. The Chaos Legions,I understand, they went under a whole different kind of training / recruitment regime. But the point still stands that Codex: Renegades exists already. It's the Space Wolves dex, the Space Marines dex, the Black Templar dex, the Dark Angels dex.

 

Codex: Chaos Space Marines should not be about the Renegades. It should be about the Legionnaires.

I think a lot of people misunderstand me I named those second codex Renegades, but rather I should name it Traitor space marines. Iron warriors, Alpha legion and Night lords and do not usually use cult units extesivelly and they also avoid of extensive use of chaos forces, but rather thay plunder loyalists stuff and surely som of them still have some pre-heresy stuff, thats why I think they should have a different dex to represent them, no matter its name.

[Notanoob]

I think a lot of people misunderstand me I named those second codex Renegades, but rather I should name it Traitor space marines. Iron warriors, Alpha legion and Night lords and do not usually use cult units extesivelly and they also avoid of extensive use of chaos forces, but rather thay plunder loyalists stuff and surely som of them still have some pre-heresy stuff, thats why I think they should have a different dex to represent them, no matter its name.

People often call them "Legions", referring to all 9 of the original traitor legions, and "Renegades", which includes all the newer traitors who haven't yet been able to embrace Chaos like much as the 9 Legions have. To make the distinction you meant, you should have referred to them as "Cult Legions" and "Undivided Legions".

[Wofferman]

For new stuff for the new dex id like to see some things like HQs giving out buffs like say a lord with mark of Khorne within 12 inches of him units get BUFFS, maybe make normal CSM more like chosen and have chosen get a larger variety of war gear, make deamonic possession allow vehicles fire all weapons but like how fast vehicles have it without making them fast (move 6 inches and still fire all weapons)and DROP PODS.

[Artein]

I've been thinking.... I'm not a fan of C:CSM v.3.5, but there should be options to make mono-Legion armies without many sub-lists or special characters....

 

- Chaos Lord with Jump Pack that makes Raptors scoring unit. I don't want to see them as Troops, not even Night Lords have so many of them.

- moving cult units (Berzerkers, Plague Marines, 1k Sons and Noise Marines) to Elite. Mark of <certain_god> on Chaos Lord will move a certain of those units to Troops.

- maybe Dark Apostle upgrade for Chaos Lord that (among other things) makes Possessed scoring.

- Heretics/Cultists unit, cheap cannon fodder

- maybe different Chosen/Veteran types, either separate unit entry or just upgrades to choose/buy from to make specialists from different Legions

- maybe even making Chosen/Veterans Troops or scoring with Chaos Lord with a Mark of Chaos Undivided

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Simple - the chance to run a proper first founding legion where units can be properly assigned to a Chaos God so that killing the standard bearer doesn't suddenly make them turn vanilla chaos.

[Panda_]

I've been thinking.... I'm not a fan of C:CSM v.3.5, but there should be options to make mono-Legion armies without many sub-lists or special characters....

 

- Chaos Lord with Jump Pack that makes Raptors scoring unit. I don't want to see them as Troops, not even Night Lords have so many of them.

- moving cult units (Berzerkers, Plague Marines, 1k Sons and Noise Marines) to Elite. Mark of <certain_god> on Chaos Lord will move a certain of those units to Troops.

- maybe Dark Apostle upgrade for Chaos Lord that (among other things) makes Possessed scoring.

- Heretics/Cultists unit, cheap cannon fodder

- maybe different Chosen/Veteran types, either separate unit entry or just upgrades to choose/buy from to make specialists from different Legions

- maybe even making Chosen/Veterans Troops or scoring with Chaos Lord with a Mark of Chaos Undivided

 

This is the best correction of the codex I've seen in a while. There is 2 trends in your suggestions:

- Moving back to the old codex Cult units were in the Elite section.

- Moving to the current v5 fashion where giving an Equipment/Rule to the HQ make similar units scoring/troops.

 

I like those suggestions a lot. To other readers, I've got to catch the attention on the difference implied by the semantics:

- "Make X scoring" : You still have to purchase regular Troops,

- "Make X troops" : You don't have to purchase regular Troops, X fills the slot.

 

I should suggest to go further the 1st mentionned trend. Sorcerers could be a Lord upgrade. Prince demonhood could be purchased (if you spend more than X points on certain upgrades, you can change the lord into a prince). That would lead to some highly customable HQ. And to prevent abuse, the Lord could be limited to 1.

Yes, the old HQ is still there: Highly customisable, unique to Chaos. With the available upgrades he can get stronger that most loyalist marines HQ, but becomes also more expensive doing so.

Yes, in short that'll bring us to our old FOC (listing changes):

- HQ: Lord, Lieutenant, Chosen

- Elites include Cult troops

 

Those changes would be great in several ways:

- It fits the 5th ed codex.

- It gives opportunities to build all traitors without special rules pages.

- This is an opportunity to rebalance units: Correct Possessed, make Raptors special again, Dreadnought can purchase 'Sane'.

- With rebalanced units, Renegades fit more what they should be.

 

Yes, I'd love veteran skills back. Sadly, we cannot expect it back (high hopes at best). Rebalanced units, and appropriate FOC (as the suggestion above) should be all we need.

And let the fluff come back inside our codex.

[Artein]

I wanted to make it possible to make an army mono-Legion but....

Well, every World Eater is a Berserker, so it is possible to field an army made of only Berserkers.

However, not every Night Lord is a Raptor (or a Jump Pack Marine), so moving Raptors to Troops would encourage players to make pure-Raptor armies, which is bad fluff-wise, but making Raptors scoring, made them a nice choice, while you still need to take 2 units of normal CSM (or Heretics/Cultists unit).

 

So yeah....

World Eaters - Lord with Mark of Khorne makes Berserkers a Troop choice

Thousand Sons - Lord (or maybe a Sorcerer?) with Mark of Tzeentch makes Thousand Sons a Troop choice

Death Guard - Lord with Mark of Nurgle makes Plague Marines a Troop choice

Emperor's Children - Lord with Mark of Slaanesh makes Noise Marines a Troop choice

Night Lords - Lord with Jump Pack makes Raptor a scoring unit, they're still FA choice

Word Bearers - Lord with a Dark Apostle upgrade makes Possessed a scoring unit, they're still Elite choice

Iron Warriors - not sure.... Lord with Warsmith upgrade makes Havocs scoring unit? I don't want to make scoring Obliterators

Alpha Legion - not sure here.... Infiltration on normal CSM? Something to do with Cultists/Heretics?

Black Legion - not sure as well.... Mark of Chaos Undivided that will.... make something nice :)

 

Also special characters could have same "make scoring" / "move to Troop choice" abilities, just like Lords, Khârn making Berserkers Troops, etc.

[Captain Idaho]

Traditionally it was Black Legion who were the ones who had large numbers of possessed in their back ground material, not Word Bearers. Word Bearers are all about ritual & daemons.

 

Hard to fit into a codex using just a single rule from your list. Cant think of a solution though.

[TheDarkApostle]

Traditionally it was Black Legion who were the ones who had large numbers of possessed in their back ground material, not Word Bearers. Word Bearers are all about ritual & daemons.

 

Hard to fit into a codex using just a single rule from your list. Cant think of a solution though.

Indeed, the Black Legion are the ones who are all over Possessions. Word Bearers traditionally have been about using cultists as meat-shields and tons of daemons.

 

Hmm, Sustained Assault on daemons perhaps?

 

TDA

[Artein]

I'm not that great fluff specialist. I just based this Word Bearer stuff on The First Heretic cover.

So what, scoring Lesser Daemons?

Honestly I'd like to see different types of daemons, but it'll make Codex: Chaos Daemons a bit redundant....

 

I was thinking about Heretics/Cultists unit....

I think making them Troop choice but not counting towards minimum number of Troop units, so that you still have to take 2 CSM squads (or cult units). Word Bearers (Dark Apostle) and Alpha Legion (not sure how to name this) upgrades would make them count.

[Brother Nathan]

and fix dreadnaughts the dont need alot but a few tweeks and a new model...

[Captain Idaho]

Personally I don't like there being a Codex Daemons, so I would like an expanded rule set for Daemons in Codex Chaos Marines & have the majority of Daemons covered in their current Codex inside a Codex Chaos Powers (which has the Cult Marines lists that follow the Chaos Powers exclusively).

[the jeske]

Honestly I'd like to see different types of daemons, but it'll make Codex: Chaos Daemons a bit redundant....

just let the demons from our dex buy marks and leave the god specific named ones for the chaos demon dex.

khorn gives +1A , nurgle gives +1T , tzeench gives +1inv , undivided gives wings [harpies] and slanesh ones suck.

[Artein]

Honestly I'd like to see different types of daemons, but it'll make Codex: Chaos Daemons a bit redundant....

just let the demons from our dex buy marks and leave the god specific named ones for the chaos demon dex.

khorn gives +1A , nurgle gives +1T , tzeench gives +1inv , undivided gives wings [harpies] and slanesh ones suck.

Awesome idea.

 

I'm not a fan of Codex: Chaos Daemons, but I don't want to remove it as an army. It won't be fair to those that started to play Daemons after releasing the codex.

[Captain Idaho]

Simple, just have Codex Daemons incorporated in the cult list, like the good old Daemon World armies from 2nd edition!