Kitting out an Terminator Assault Squad

[The Neophyte of War]

Greetings Brothers,

 

I just picked up a Terminator Assault squad and before I put them together would like to know what is a good build. Should I have all TH&SS or should I thrown in some LCs into the mix. Any comments would be greatly appreciated!

 

-NoW

[chaplain belisarius]

TH@SS...hope this helped! :jaw:

[DarkGuard]

Which army are you playing? If it is Codex Marines, then the general consensus is all TH/SS in a Land Raider. Doing this gives you an assault unit that can survive nearly anything, and kill pretty much everything. Lightning claws aren't simply good enough, S4 I4 isn't amazing, even with re-rolls, and their survivability isn't amazing.

 

If you're playing Blood Angels or Black Templars, then consider lightning claws. Black Templars don't get 3++ storm shield, so for them go all lightning claws with Furious Charge to get a bonus to your strength and initiative when you charge, and you should chop through most infantry. The same applies to Blood Angels, get Furious Charge in there, though a couple of TH/SS as bullet shields wouldn't be too bad.

 

As for Dark Angels, I can't help you there I'm afraid.

 

Here's a list of links about all kinds of Terminators compiled by LardO' Blood. It's pretty comprehensive, and you should be able to find some more help there:

Just thought I'd do this for any future people who want to run tactical terminators, these are lists of threads regarding them. They seem to be one of those threads that comes up every few months (I think I have gone back to the start of C:SM5 but I'm not sure):

Lysander with Tactical Terminators Discussions

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

Tactical Terminator Weapon Configuration

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

Army Building and Tactical Terminators

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

Ten Man Terminator Squads

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

Tactical (mostly) Terminator Tactics

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

Tactical Terminators vs. Assault Terminators

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...p;hl=terminator

I think all of these links are helpful, if they aren't then tell me and I'll remove the ones that aren't. I hope that somebody will make use of these links I compiled and try tactical terminators out.

I thought I'd re post this. I think it is a decent resource regarding tactical terminators.

[greatcrusade08]

a mix of 3:2 is pretty favourable.. usually 3 hammers and two Lcs is good

[Jackelope King]

Which army are you playing? If it is Codex Marines, then the general consensus is all TH/SS in a Land Raider. Doing this gives you an assault unit that can survive nearly anything, and kill pretty much everything. Lightning claws aren't simply good enough, S4 I4 isn't amazing, even with re-rolls, and their survivability isn't amazing.

 

If you're playing Blood Angels or Black Templars, then consider lightning claws. Black Templars don't get 3++ storm shield, so for them go all lightning claws with Furious Charge to get a bonus to your strength and initiative when you charge, and you should chop through most infantry. The same applies to Blood Angels, get Furious Charge in there, though a couple of TH/SS as bullet shields wouldn't be too bad.

Pretty much this. If you can get Furious Charge, Lightning Claws are worth it, particularly Black Templar, as taking "Accept Any Challenge" as your vow makes LC Terminators absolutely DEADLY (S5 I5 Reroll to hit Reroll to wound makes everything cry). For Codex Marines, it's TH/SS all day long.

[LardO'Blood]

Agreed with Darkguard.

For Dark Angels the most popular terminator assault squad is this coming from a land raider with lightning claw Belial.(as far as I have seen):

Chainfist/Heavy flamer

Lightning claws and banner

Lightning claws and apothecary

Lightning claws

Lightning claws or TH/SS (personal preference)

[The Neophyte of War]

Thanks everyone for all the help. I am running a Ultramarines army, so I think I am going to use TH&SS. Also is it worth using a Chaplain in Terminator Armour with that group or should I use another HQ choice? Thanks again!

[LardO'Blood]

A chaplain is usually over kill. Not much can withstand 15 S8 attacks.

Even a trygon will die statistically to a full TH/SS squad.

[Jackelope King]

A chaplain is usually over kill. Not much can withstand 15 S8 attacks.

Even a trygon will die statistically to a full TH/SS squad.

Indeed. You're better off taking another sort of force multiplier. A Librarian provides Null Zone, which gives your rock units an edge over other rock units, for instance.

[DarkGuard]

Thanks everyone for all the help. I am running a Ultramarines army, so I think I am going to use TH&SS. Also is it worth using a Chaplain in Terminator Armour with that group or should I use another HQ choice? Thanks again!

 

Agree with the above, a Libby with Null Zone would be more than satisfactory. Avenger if in power armour, or SS and Vortex of Doom if in Terminator armour.

 

However, if you must have a Chaplain, look no further than Cassius. Better than a Chaplain in Terminator armour, he gives you a bit of a kick in pre-shooting, all the re-rolls you want, plus he has FnP and toughness 6 on top of his 3+/4++, all at a reasonable points cost. Plus, fluffy for your army.

[greatcrusade08]

if your taking a chappy those claws become alot more interesting.. i really dont advise anyone take a whole unit of just hammers, got to have a couple of claw guys at least.

[BearersOfSalvation]

If you have Furious Charge, lightning claws are great because you can get that S5, I5 opener. Otherwise, they look neat but don't do you much good. TH/SS terminators absolutely destroy things like ICs, MCs, Nobz, bikers, dreds, and similar extremely deadly opponents that nothing else in the marine list can really touch in HtH. LC terminators rip up things like regular orcs, guard, and eldar, but any marines can do that, and when you start to look at the points cost (around 500 points for terminators + land raider, so more than 20 tac marines in rhinos or 20 assault marines with packs), the ability to beat up stuff marines are good at beating up anyway just isn't impressive. And that's not even getting into the fact that TH/SS terminators can take twice as many hits from MCs, dreds, daemons, characters, and other terminators as LC terminators.

 

I'm not sure why some people say adding a chaplain changes anything, he gives either type of terminator a better chance to hit but doesn't change their relative strength at all.

[Mysticaria]

If you have Furious Charge, lightning claws are great because you can get that S5, I5 opener. Otherwise, they look neat but don't do you much good. TH/SS terminators absolutely destroy things like ICs, MCs, Nobz, bikers, dreds, and similar extremely deadly opponents that nothing else in the marine list can really touch in HtH. LC terminators rip up things like regular orcs, guard, and eldar, but any marines can do that, and when you start to look at the points cost (around 500 points for terminators + land raider, so more than 20 tac marines in rhinos or 20 assault marines with packs), the ability to beat up stuff marines are good at beating up anyway just isn't impressive. And that's not even getting into the fact that TH/SS terminators can take twice as many hits from MCs, dreds, daemons, characters, and other terminators as LC terminators.

 

I'm not sure why some people say adding a chaplain changes anything, he gives either type of terminator a better chance to hit but doesn't change their relative strength at all.

On the chaplain, he increases hit rate from 50% to 75% against most opponents. That's changing 5x T-hammers from 6.25 wounds to about 9.5 wounds on the assault. Of course, that probably only helps you against hordes and large units, which you wouldn't have a problem with if you had a couple lightening claws in there. Still, it is pretty significant. Question of whether he's better than a librarian is a different argument, but the librarian significantly increased effectiveness against other models with invul saves (like T-hammer terminators).

 

On the fun factor scale... lightning claw terminators with a chaplain... roll a whole bunch of dice, roll them again, hit with nearly everything, roll a whole bunch of dice, roll them again, ask you opponent to remover every last model in the squad.... that's fun!

 

Oh yeah, lightning claws benefit from assault launchers on some LR variants, and T-hammers don't. Small benefit, but against I3 stuff it comes in handy. Striking at different initiatives gives the chance to allocate wounds more effectively too since you give saves to models who have already attacked and don't risk losing the other slow guys.

 

-Myst

[BearersOfSalvation]

On the chaplain, he increases hit rate from 50% to 75% against most opponents.

 

Yes, and he does the exact same thing for LCs - he doesn't change the balance of LCs vs THs at all, that's why I don't really get it when people say that a chaplain is exceptional with LCs. I think it's really just the 'like to reroll then reroll, oh and if I have a librarian make my opponent reroll too' thing like you said, not any tactical benefit.

 

Of course, that probably only helps you against hordes and large units, which you wouldn't have a problem with if you had a couple lightening claws in there.

 

How exactly do a couple of lightning claws make a difference against hordes and large units? Against marines, orcs, bikers, or any other T4+ opponent, thunder hammers do more wounds on average on the charge (which is also the only time the chaplain helps), and even when LCs average more wounds putting 2 LCs instead of THs means you're adding maybe 1 extra wound on average, and killing 1 more guy in a horde usually isn't make or break. I think the LC fans are overestimating the benefit of going from 2-3 'wound on 2' attacks to 3-4 'wound on 3-5 with a reroll' attacks.

 

Oh yeah, lightning claws benefit from assault launchers on some LR variants, and T-hammers don't. Small benefit, but against I3 stuff it comes in handy. Striking at different initiatives gives the chance to allocate wounds more effectively too since you give saves to models who have already attacked and don't risk losing the other slow guys.

 

But again, what I3 stuff do you want to be sending a pack of terminators in a land raider against? You can get 20 tac marines in rhinos or 20 assault marines with packs for the same cost as 5 terminators in a land raider, and I can't think of any I3 stuff where I'd not rather have the 20 marines in 2-4 squads. LC terminators seem to be good at killing stuff that costs too few points to be worth sending a land raider packed with terminators to kill.

[Bartali]

Which army are you playing? If it is Codex Marines, then the general consensus is all TH/SS in a Land Raider. Doing this gives you an assault unit that can survive nearly anything, and kill pretty much everything. Lightning claws aren't simply good enough, S4 I4 isn't amazing, even with re-rolls, and their survivability isn't amazing.

 

+1. However as a cheaper alternative to a Land Raider Crusader, there's also the Librarian with Terminator Armour, Storm Shield, Gate Of Infinity and Null Zone.

[Chengar Qordath]

Oh yeah, lightning claws benefit from assault launchers on some LR variants, and T-hammers don't. Small benefit, but against I3 stuff it comes in handy. Striking at different initiatives gives the chance to allocate wounds more effectively too since you give saves to models who have already attacked and don't risk losing the other slow guys.

 

But again, what I3 stuff do you want to be sending a pack of terminators in a land raider against? You can get 20 tac marines in rhinos or 20 assault marines with packs for the same cost as 5 terminators in a land raider, and I can't think of any I3 stuff where I'd not rather have the 20 marines in 2-4 squads. LC terminators seem to be good at killing stuff that costs too few points to be worth sending a land raider packed with terminators to kill.

Plague Marines, Ogryn, and (Mega)Nobz all spring to mind.

 

That said, this is main reason why Furious charge makes LC terminators so much better; it greatly increases the number of things you hit first against.

[Mysticaria]

On the chaplain, he increases hit rate from 50% to 75% against most opponents.

 

Yes, and he does the exact same thing for LCs - he doesn't change the balance of LCs vs THs at all, that's why I don't really get it when people say that a chaplain is exceptional with LCs. I think it's really just the 'like to reroll then reroll, oh and if I have a librarian make my opponent reroll too' thing like you said, not any tactical benefit.

It makes them exceptionally fun!

 

Seriously though, I agree with you on this point; chaplain benfits both of them... I don't think I said otherwise; hope it wasn't taken that way...

 

Of course, that probably only helps you against hordes and large units, which you wouldn't have a problem with if you had a couple lightening claws in there.

 

How exactly do a couple of lightning claws make a difference against hordes and large units? Against marines, orcs, bikers, or any other T4+ opponent, thunder hammers do more wounds on average on the charge (which is also the only time the chaplain helps), and even when LCs average more wounds putting 2 LCs instead of THs means you're adding maybe 1 extra wound on average, and killing 1 more guy in a horde usually isn't make or break. I think the LC fans are overestimating the benefit of going from 2-3 'wound on 2' attacks to 3-4 'wound on 3-5 with a reroll' attacks.

Might want to run your math again. Against T5+ the T-hammers average more wounds. Against T4- stuff the claws average more wounds. More wounds is more wounds. I would like to think that all things considered... "more wounds" is a good thing. Only time you should ever want all T-hammers is if you know you are only going against MCs, multi-wound T4 creatures, or all power weapons. Otherwise getting +1 wound every round of combat is a good thing. Everyone here is about maximizing their units and getting the most out of things, so I don't know why leaving that +1 wound every round of combat is so popular.

 

And on the horde front, getting 1 extra wound every round without losing any durability is going to help. Yeah, I probably overstated the case in the first post; thanks for pointing that out. Don't forget though, by going at I4 and getting extra wounds, you may actually be preventing enemies from attacking back. Even 2 lightning claw termies in a unit are going to kill about 2~4 enemies a turn, which could equate to a lot less damage taken especially if you are fighting an Ork boy mob or something similar. Again, if you aren't fighting power weapons they are the same durability as T-hammers.

 

So the only time you want all T-hammers is when you are fighting stuff that is T5+ or has all power weapon attacks. Against anything else lightening claws are better. If you know you are going against someone with T5+ power claw units that can be instakilled, or lots of MCs, then sure go with the T-hammers. But if you are preparing for a variety of units, go claws. I know if you played against me you'd be far better off with the claws then the hammers, but maybe that's just one matchup....

 

-Myst

 

EDIT: Addded the part about the chaplain

[Bartali]

So the only time you want all T-hammers is when you are fighting stuff that is T5+ or has all power weapon attacks. Against anything else lightening claws are better. If you know you are going against someone with T5+ power claw units that can be instakilled, or lots of MCs, then sure go with the T-hammers. But if you are preparing for a variety of units, go claws. I know if you played against me you'd be far better off with the claws then the hammers, but maybe that's just one matchup....

 

TH/SS are just so much better in all-comers list when you don't know who your opponent is. Firstly in CC, when fighting other elite cc units I5+ with power weapons or rending is more common than you may think. Secondly, when they inevitably get shot at by AP1/2 weapons after cc as finished.

[greatcrusade08]

taking all 5 as TH/SS is putting all your eggs in one basket a true all comers list should have both.. id say 3 hammers and 2 claws..

what if you face shooty termies? you want to get kills in before power fists can hit back.

5th ed is a very initiative driven game hitting at I4 should never be underestimated

[DarkGuard]

Which army are you playing? If it is Codex Marines, then the general consensus is all TH/SS in a Land Raider. Doing this gives you an assault unit that can survive nearly anything, and kill pretty much everything. Lightning claws aren't simply good enough, S4 I4 isn't amazing, even with re-rolls, and their survivability isn't amazing.

 

+1. However as a cheaper alternative to a Land Raider Crusader, there's also the Librarian with Terminator Armour, Storm Shield, Gate Of Infinity and Null Zone.

 

I'm not a fan of that Libby, and the tactics for it. Perhaps with a shooty Tactical Terminator squad, but that's another discussion (and one I'd still disagree with!). The thing is, GoI is Deep Striking, and you can't assault after Deep Striking, thereby meaning you end up having your expensive and valuable TH/SS squad sitting about in the open twiddling their thumbs, and you know that they are going to attract a lot of unwanted attention. Plus, the primary power of a Libby is Null Zone, and so you want the second power to be different, but not tactically essential, as a fall back to when you don't need Null Zone.

[Bartali]

I'm not a fan of that Libby, and the tactics for it. Perhaps with a shooty Tactical Terminator squad, but that's another discussion (and one I'd still disagree with!). The thing is, GoI is Deep Striking, and you can't assault after Deep Striking, thereby meaning you end up having your expensive and valuable TH/SS squad sitting about in the open twiddling their thumbs, and you know that they are going to attract a lot of unwanted attention. Plus, the primary power of a Libby is Null Zone, and so you want the second power to be different, but not tactically essential, as a fall back to when you don't need Null Zone.

 

You're right in that using GoI differs to using a Raider to transport your Assault Terminators.

If you're playing a competent player, a single Raider will go down fairly quickly leaving your Terminators without a ride. This means you normally have to be very agressive with it - there's no point having your Crusader or Redeemer scuttling around in your back field and getting immobilised/wrecked/destroyed without delivering it's cargo.

 

Using a GoI Libby to transport your Terminators allows you to have more options tactically. No need to rush forward as your transport isn't going to get blown and it still allows you to threaten most of the board. In reality I would only expect to use GoI once per game if that, and a conflict with Null Zone shouldn't come about.

 

I'd use GoI Assault Terminators to support my force, by contrast I would have to build my force around Raider based Assault Terminators.

 

taking all 5 as TH/SS is putting all your eggs in one basket a true all comers list should have both.. id say 3 hammers and 2 claws..

what if you face shooty termies? you want to get kills in before power fists can hit back.

5th ed is a very initiative driven game hitting at I4 should never be underestimated

 

Funnily enough with Deathwing for giggles I sometimes run Belial, Int.Chaplain, 2xLC, 3xTH/SS. I've found I5 helps immensely, the I4 LC less so. But I need them to multi-task, and the claws help out with hordes.

 

In a C:SM list they have a very different role. I want them to protect my PA Marines from I5+ Power weapon/rending attacks - the sort of stuff that walks through I4 T4 3+. Which is were Storm Shields are invaluable.

[DarkGuard]

I understand what you're saying about the GoI Libby Bartali, but I do still feel that the Land Raider is the better option due to it's inherent mobility (rather than having to pass a psychic test), and it helps with survivability issues, as while inside the tank the Terminators can't be shot.

 

True a competent player can easily kill one Land Raider, but then a competent player would be able to protect his Land Raider through clever positioning and target saturation. At higher points levels its not uncommon to see two Land Raider with Terminators in them instead of one. Others do it differently, I've used a single LRR with TH/SS squad to great effect because I've also used a couple of Vindicators and big Tactical squads, giving my opponent more threats to think about. If he goes for the Raider, he'll be severely punished by my Vindys, or other units.

 

That's just my opinion though, as I highly rate the assault ramp on the Land Raider, and for me that's something you need in your transport of Assault Terminators.

[Bartali]

True a competent player can easily kill one Land Raider, but then a competent player would be able to protect his Land Raider through clever positioning and target saturation. At higher points levels its not uncommon to see two Land Raider with Terminators in them instead of one. Others do it differently, I've used a single LRR with TH/SS squad to great effect because I've also used a couple of Vindicators and big Tactical squads, giving my opponent more threats to think about. If he goes for the Raider, he'll be severely punished by my Vindys, or other units.

 

Which again goes back to having to having to build your force around the Raider, as you ideally don't want to end up paying 250pts just for bubblewrap. GoI allows more freedom in list design as your Terminators support your list, rather than building your list to support the Terminators.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like both options and use the LRC with Deathwing. I just feel using GoI allows for more tactical flexibility and builds a more competitive list.

[Mysticaria]

So the only time you want all T-hammers is when you are fighting stuff that is T5+ or has all power weapon attacks. Against anything else lightening claws are better. If you know you are going against someone with T5+ power claw units that can be instakilled, or lots of MCs, then sure go with the T-hammers. But if you are preparing for a variety of units, go claws. I know if you played against me you'd be far better off with the claws then the hammers, but maybe that's just one matchup....

 

TH/SS are just so much better in all-comers list when you don't know who your opponent is. Firstly in CC, when fighting other elite cc units I5+ with power weapons or rending is more common than you may think. Secondly, when they inevitably get shot at by AP1/2 weapons after cc as finished.

Technically... TH/SS are the more resilient choice, not the better choice. The "better" choice is the one that is most effective in a given scenario. T-hammers are only more effective in certain situations, as I described above. In all other situations mixing in some claws would be "more effective" or better. Each person has to decide what they are going to likely encounter, and consider what their army is prepared to do. If you are getting ready to face all comers with your Terminators, then being prepared for elite close combat units and being prepared for normal enemy troopers should be equally important. For example, let's say the opponent is IG, DE, or Necrons... wouldn't you rather have 1-2 claws mixed in there? T-hammers aren't adding a whole lot in those matchups unfortunately. If you have all T-hammers in those matchups then you don't have the most effective unit that you could have. Your army isn't prepared for "all" comers then.

 

And the part about getting shot with low AP stuff.... that's why you mix them up. A unit with 3 hammers and 2 claws is going to be just as resilient against low AP shooting as a unit of all hammers up until the point you start getting hit with 4x AP shots from one unit. That's pretty resilient if you ask me. What are the odds of getting shot with 6x low ap shots (assuming BS4) from one unit in a turn? Is that so common of a threat that you are willing to take a less effective unit to have the increased resiliency? I can't even think of an example off the top of my head... plasma command squad maybe? not too common....

 

-Myst

[Corby]

taking all 5 as TH/SS is putting all your eggs in one basket a true all comers list should have both.. id say 3 hammers and 2 claws..

what if you face shooty termies? you want to get kills in before power fists can hit back.

5th ed is a very initiative driven game hitting at I4 should never be underestimated

 

 

Then you laugh off the power fist attacks with your 3+ invunerable save. And they cry while they make 5+ saves against your t-hammers.