Kitting out an Terminator Assault Squad

[Corby]

So the only time you want all T-hammers is when you are fighting stuff that is T5+ or has all power weapon attacks. Against anything else lightening claws are better. If you know you are going against someone with T5+ power claw units that can be instakilled, or lots of MCs, then sure go with the T-hammers. But if you are preparing for a variety of units, go claws. I know if you played against me you'd be far better off with the claws then the hammers, but maybe that's just one matchup....

 

TH/SS are just so much better in all-comers list when you don't know who your opponent is. Firstly in CC, when fighting other elite cc units I5+ with power weapons or rending is more common than you may think. Secondly, when they inevitably get shot at by AP1/2 weapons after cc as finished.

Technically... TH/SS are the more resilient choice, not the better choice. The "better" choice is the one that is most effective in a given scenario. T-hammers are only more effective in certain situations, as I described above. In all other situations mixing in some claws would be "more effective" or better. Each person has to decide what they are going to likely encounter, and consider what their army is prepared to do. If you are getting ready to face all comers with your Terminators, then being prepared for elite close combat units and being prepared for normal enemy troopers should be equally important. For example, let's say the opponent is IG, DE, or Necrons... wouldn't you rather have 1-2 claws mixed in there? T-hammers aren't adding a whole lot in those matchups unfortunately. If you have all T-hammers in those matchups then you don't have the most effective unit that you could have. Your army isn't prepared for "all" comers then.

 

And the part about getting shot with low AP stuff.... that's why you mix them up. A unit with 3 hammers and 2 claws is going to be just as resilient against low AP shooting as a unit of all hammers up until the point you start getting hit with 4x AP shots from one unit. That's pretty resilient if you ask me. What are the odds of getting shot with 6x low ap shots (assuming BS4) from one unit in a turn? Is that so common of a threat that you are willing to take a less effective unit to have the increased resiliency? I can't even think of an example off the top of my head... plasma command squad maybe? not too common....

 

-Myst

 

Thunder hammer terminators bring something Vanilla marines don't have. Which is an effective durable assault unit. They're not ment to be wading through enemy fire. They're ment to be Targeting Potentially dangerous combat units which could seriously hamper your battleplan. In combat the likely hood of getting hit by several power weapons etc is very high. that is why a squad comprised of entierly Thunder hammer terminators is good. It can survive the hail of incoming attacks and still dish out a world of hurt. Lightning claws don't count for much when they don't have the survivability to deal with Anything striking at I5+ which is what some armies have for their combat units. Ultimately the Thunder hammer + stormshield combo brings something Lightning claws don't have , which is duality. Thunder hammers also make effective weapons against Mech , which makes up a large portion of the current meta game. Lightning claws can't deal with Mech. So ultimately the tactical flexibility of the Terminator assault squad suffers when lightning claws are added. ( Unless of course the Terminators have furious charge available to them , such as in the case of Blood angels and Black Templars)

[Chengar Qordath]

taking all 5 as TH/SS is putting all your eggs in one basket a true all comers list should have both.. id say 3 hammers and 2 claws..

what if you face shooty termies? you want to get kills in before power fists can hit back.

5th ed is a very initiative driven game hitting at I4 should never be underestimated

 

Then you laugh off the power fist attacks with your 3+ invunerable save. And they cry while they make 5+ saves against your t-hammers.

A 3++ is nice, but not having to make a save at all because your opponent never got to attack is even better.

[ShinyRhino]

taking all 5 as TH/SS is putting all your eggs in one basket a true all comers list should have both.. id say 3 hammers and 2 claws..

what if you face shooty termies? you want to get kills in before power fists can hit back.

5th ed is a very initiative driven game hitting at I4 should never be underestimated

 

Then you laugh off the power fist attacks with your 3+ invunerable save. And they cry while they make 5+ saves against your t-hammers.

A 3++ is nice, but not having to make a save at all because your opponent never got to attack is even better.

 

Exactly this. The onclusion of ONE Claw-armed Terminator provides four S4 attacks with rerolls to wound on the charge. He can eliminate a maximum of four models worth of return attacks from the enemy TacTerminators. That's either six, or eight powerfist attacks depending on how your opponent allocates the wounds. (If he risks the sergeant, he'll still get the two powersword attacks at I4, allowing you to only threated six powerfist attacks instead of 8).

Assuming both of your I4 sets of attacks hit and wound and kill every model they can, you're already up 4:2 on combat res. He's got two or four powerfist attacks left to swing, and you have nine hammer attacks :(

[greatcrusade08]

exactly, the combo of 3 hammers to 2 claws, gives you that advantage whilst still having 3 storm shield saves in the unit..

[waaanial00]

I always think people give TH/SS terminators too much credibility when it comes to their survivability. Ok 2+ 3++ is probably the best mechanism for protection in the game, however its still only a 1 wound model. Anyone who has ever played marines knows that failing a 3+ save is easy to do, therefore to suggest that a 3++ save is somehow easily able to laugh off damage is a bit of an exaggeration (though I know why it is said).

 

Terminators in general are an arse sometimes to remove, even more so when they have a 3++ save to back them up. However if all you take are TH/SS terminators and you drop a bunch of 2+ armour saves to standard attacks, then it might just mean that you have too few hammer attacks to make enough of a difference.

 

I take 3:2 TH/SS to LC's. Though to be honest thats very rare because I am cursed to roll 1's on armour saves when they are terminators.

 

One final thought is that I prefer the extra attack when it comes to weaker opponents, statistics be damned I want to throw more dice in the hope that I get more kills (and staying off those dreaded moments when you roll hits on only 1/3 of your attacks). Against tougher targets, well they can get killed first and save me having to take damage on the units which may actually do some lasting damage.

[Bartali]

.....If you are getting ready to face all comers with your Terminators, then being prepared for elite close combat units and being prepared for normal enemy troopers should be equally important. For example, let's say the opponent is IG, DE, or Necrons... wouldn't you rather have 1-2 claws mixed in there? T-hammers aren't adding a whole lot in those matchups unfortunately. If you have all T-hammers in those matchups then you don't have the most effective unit that you could have. Your army isn't prepared for "all" comers then....

 

This bolded part is where we disagree, and perhaps your need for claws come from. I normally have plenty of things that can deal with standard troops in a list, the Terminators are there for things that Power Armoured equivalents can't deal with. This normally means I5+ and Power Weapon/Rending attacks. MCs, Genestealers, Howling Banshees, Khorne/Slaanesh Daemons etc

[greatcrusade08]

bartali i understand your point that TH/SS is useful against those few examples.. but those kind of units can be few and far between, what do you do when going aginst horde armies or MEQ hordes?

lots of attacks will kill TH/SS termies before they swing, which is where claws come in handy.

if the enemy does have a unit which is tailored for TH/SS temries to take out you also ahve to figure actually reaching them.. how can you seperate a big nobz squad from the horde of boys around it.

the ork player will now his boys will fare better and make a beeline for them

[Bartali]

Most horde armies will either have a big gribbly of some sort or a small support unit (Lootaz, Hive Guard etc) hanging around that the TH/SS Terminators can deal with.

 

It's pointless sending either TLC or TH/SS terminators against horde. Sure you might kill a few, but then you'll die under the volume of attacks back.

Space Marines deal with hordes by shooting

[waaanial00]

Most horde armies will either have a big gribbly of some sort or a small support unit (Lootaz, Hive Guard etc) hanging around that the TH/SS Terminators can deal with.

 

Good argument, bad example. Nobs/Meganobs are the better example, as lootaz are essentially boys with a big gun. Lootas are best engaged in another way. In addition Loota mobs are usually taken in large numbers because the Ork list is always stretched on its elite choices.

[Bartali]

Oh, I'd be willing to send TH/SS terminators after small groups of Lootaz (or Long Fangs or Hive Guard) if needs be. GoI as close too them as possible, and act as bullet magnets before assaulting next turn. Deep striking MM/HF Speeder would work just as well (if not better) with the Lootaz, but you get the idea.

[waaanial00]

In the name of victory there are no tactics I would not employ :) Tis how I play the game as well.