Power weapon over Ligtning claw?

[Justin2008]

Hey all, i am sat in my college library and the thought come across me. Why is it people (for soem reason INC me) pick power weapons for their srgeants over lightning claws? I mean its the same points, but better if you get the re-roll to wound. Now obviously if you take the power weapon with a botl pistol, then your get an extra attack, but if you take the lightning claw then your gonna re-roll your failed to-wound rolls.

 

Now looking at it, mine is down to the fact i have so many power weapons on sprues, so its easier to field them.

 

Whats your reason? :D

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Hey all, i am sat in my college library and the thought come across me. Why is it people (for soem reason INC me) pick power weapons for their srgeants over lightning claws? I mean its the same points, but better if you get the re-roll to wound. Now obviously if you take the power weapon with a botl pistol, then your get an extra attack, but if you take the lightning claw then your gonna re-roll your failed to-wound rolls.

 

Now looking at it, mine is down to the fact i have so many power weapons on sprues, so its easier to field them.

 

Whats your reason? :D

 

Actually you only get +1A for having a pair of Power weapons - same goes for Powerfists and Thunder Hammers.

 

 

To be honest it depends wholly on the squad and the tactics for that squad, along with your potential foe.

[ancient god]

For me it's the looks, claws only look good in pairs if you ask me. :D

 

I think there was some discussion on what's better point-per-point earlier this year, around the time the new codex came out. Gaming-wise, they're almost identical in killing power if I remember correctly. But I'm sure someone will elaborate.

 

EDIT: Go here for some more answers, the thread is on the same page as yours right now: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=216500

[Wildfire]

Actually you only get +1A for having a pair of Power weapons - same goes for Powerfists and Thunder Hammers.

 

Incorrect, you still get the bonus from having a pistol or ccw for the power weapon. See pg 42 of the BRB. Only fists, hammers, and claws are listed there.

 

Mathhammer shows that on the charge, with furious charge, vs T4, on a model with 2 attacks, a power weapon and pistol/ccw and a claw and pistol/ccw have the same wound rate. Lower than T4 the advantage goes to the power weapon, greater than T4 the advantage goes to the claw. So if you're fighting eldar and the like, a power weapon could be advantaged over a lightning claw.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

one could argue that against Eldar and the like the rest of your marines can take up slack that the LC leaves. Which may in the long run benefit people more.

[JamesI]

I think the main reason my units are far more likely to have power weapons over claws is the simple fact that I have access to a lot more power weapon bits than lightning claw bits.

[Dark Legionnare]

I think the main reason my units are far more likely to have power weapons over claws is the simple fact that I have access to a lot more power weapon bits than lightning claw bits.

Same reason here. Coincidentally, that's also the reason I would never give my Sternguard storm bolters if I ever bought them. I have no way of getting 9 storm bolters without having to pay royalties.

[bushman101]

I just can't seem to get my hands on any lightning claws.

Put simply, none of the kits I've bought came with any.

[breng77]

Using Math hamemr the claw comes out statically slightly better (doing a little over 1 wound on the charge, the PW does 1 wound on the charge.) If you have FC they come out exactly the same on the charge. THe Extra attack does mean you are more likely to hit though and if you fail to hit you do no wounds at all. That said neither is as good as a fist (though 10 points cheaper) but in general if you have the points the fist is quite a lot better due to wound allocation.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Actually you only get +1A for having a pair of Power weapons - same goes for Powerfists and Thunder Hammers.

 

Incorrect, you still get the bonus from having a pistol or ccw for the power weapon. See pg 42 of the BRB. Only fists, hammers, and claws are listed there.

 

Really? I thought Powerweapons were included because they're not a CCW in the way a chainsword is.

[Brother Molon Labe]

I just can't seem to get my hands on any lightning claws.

Put simply, none of the kits I've bought came with any.

Find a space wolf player he should have acouple you can bargan off of him and then alittle filing and some green stuff and you are good to go.

[Dark Legionnare]

You could also grab some Termie lightning claw sprues or bits and trim off the termie arms. That's what I did for my old Captain before some paint solvent melted his torso.

[Brother Chris]

The look! For me Blood Angels are renaissance knights in armour, and they look a lot better with swords, even swords and shields, than lightning claws or powerfists. The designers know this, hence you get a lot more pictures and a lot more power weapons in kits. I'd have a very different view about Space Wolves and Flesh Tearers. Lightning Claws and Power Fists are also very unlikely, unrealistic weapons. It is very easy to put down your sword to scratch your nose, write a note, gesture to your unit. But a giant metal boxing glove or a Wolverine wannabe base-ball mit? Ridiculous. I'd only use then on terminators.

[SamaNagol]

lol@chain saws being realistic weapons

[shatter]

Tell that to a tree.

[SamaNagol]

Trees have a DEF rating of 0

[dadieau]

I guess not all hammers crunch numbers the same. My figures tell me that Power Weapons are better for tough 3 and lower opponents, Lightning Claws have a slight edge for tough 5 or higher. Claws, PWs and Glaives are all the same for standard spec Space Marines. The Glaive is at a small disadvantage for less than 4 and greater than 4 toughness opponents.

[Erasmus of Baal]

I guess not all hammers crunch numbers the same. My figures tell me that Power Weapons are better for tough 3 and lower opponents, Lightning Claws have a slight edge for tough 5 or higher. Claws, PWs and Glaives are all the same for standard spec Space Marines. The Glaive is at a small disadvantage for less than 4 and greater than 4 toughness opponents.

The difference comes about in the final steps of the mathammer work. If I was to do the math and only use percentages, the lightning claw comes in ahead because of its greater chance to hit. However, some take the number of attacks and multiply that by the percentage; this generates the average number of attacks that will succeed in wounding the enemy. In this second approach, the power weapon takes the lead. I know of no logic which puts one definitively above the other, but I subscribe to the first method.

 

I don't understand how Toughness is making a difference for you, though, since all of the weapons you are describing strike at the same strength.

[Tabgoi]

Honestly I prefer the lightning claws. The idea of a marine cutting great ribbons out of a heretic just appeals to me. Plus the enlarged gauntlet gives you some nice sculpting oppotunities. The chain swords ruin the idea of knights for me anyways, so I say go full out.

[Wildfire]

Mathhammer shows that on the charge, with furious charge, vs T4, on a model with 2 attacks, a power weapon and pistol/ccw and a claw and pistol/ccw have the same wound rate. Lower than T4 the advantage goes to the power weapon, greater than T4 the advantage goes to the claw. So if you're fighting eldar and the like, a power weapon could be advantaged over a lightning claw.

 

Using Math hamemr the claw comes out statically slightly better (doing a little over 1 wound on the charge, the PW does 1 wound on the charge.) If you have FC they come out exactly the same on the charge. THe Extra attack does mean you are more likely to hit though and if you fail to hit you do no wounds at all. That said neither is as good as a fist (though 10 points cheaper) but in general if you have the points the fist is quite a lot better due to wound allocation.

 

I guess not all hammers crunch numbers the same. My figures tell me that Power Weapons are better for tough 3 and lower opponents, Lightning Claws have a slight edge for tough 5 or higher. Claws, PWs and Glaives are all the same for standard spec Space Marines. The Glaive is at a small disadvantage for less than 4 and greater than 4 toughness opponents.

 

Is it just me, or did all three of us come to the same about power weapons vs. single claws? Looks like we did all crunch the same.

 

Although I will say, you are mistaken about Glaives. They are always inferior to a power weapon with pistol/ccw. Always. A reroll is always inferior to an extra attack. The only reason to take one would be to use another two-handed weapon, such as a combi-weapon.

 

I don't understand how Toughness is making a difference for you, though, since all of the weapons you are describing strike at the same strength.

 

Toughness makes a difference because LCs get a reroll to wound.

 

 

Remember though that mathhammer isn't everything. It's a useful tool, but the game is too complex to be so easily rendered down in statistics.

[Leksington]

I don't understand how Toughness is making a difference for you, though, since all of the weapons you are describing strike at the same strength.

You get to reroll more frequently when it is tougher to to wound (and reroll less when it is easier to wound). Even though it is tougher to wound on the reroll too, the lightning claws still do better against higher toughnesses.

 

The final ruling on the MathHammer gets a little hairy on this due to accounting for opponent's T and how often your Marines should be getting the charge or furious charge.

First, my Mathematics (Using a marine with a profile with S4, A2)

*Against T3:

Regular: PW does 12.5% better than LC

Charging: They perform equally

Furious Charging: PW does 14.2% better than LCs

 

*Against T4:

Regular: They perform equally

Charging: LC does 12.5% better than PW

Furious Charging: They perform equally

 

*Against T5:

Regular: LC does 11.1% better than PW

Charging: LC does 25% better than PW

Furious Charging: LC does 12.5% better than PW

 

*Against T6:

Regular: LC does 22.2% better than PW

Charging: LC does 37.5% better than PW

Furious Charging: LC does 25% better than PW

 

 

If you know you are fighting a predominantly T3 army (Tau, IG, Eldar, Dark Eldar, etc.) you want PWs. Against T5+(Necrons) you want LCs. You probably want LCs against T4 also (but the difference isn't huge). But what about all comers? It mainly comes down to what percentage of your opponents play which army. To a lesser extent you need to factor in how often you should be getting the charge, and what percentage of your charging Marines (with upgraded CC weapons) will have Red Thirst, Black Rage, or be in range of a SP.

 

Generally, I'd lean towards LCs for an all comers list. But if it is a unit with a SP in it I'd lean towards PWs, unless that unit's job is to go after big things.

[Drachnon]

I actually did the mathhammer on this a while back you can find it here:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=2461393

[Leksington]

I actually did the mathhammer on this a while back you can find it here:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=2461393

Just a nerdy math note:

You don't need to include the 'to hit' stage in your calculations since the hit percentage is the same. (unless you want to compare them to the Glaive Excarmine).

 

When you have X attacks and Y attacks, and the hit percentage is C%. You end up with CX hits versus CY hits. The ratio of the two is CX:CY. You can factor out the C and you ratio is X:Y. So we see the ratio of hits is independant of hit percentage. :P

[shatter]

On a further note, the more attacks a model gets eg, the sanguinor's bubble with bannered HG unit models or super sergeant (from the sanguinor's blessing), the better LCs become (relative to PWs). My favourate is a terminator sanguinated sgt with 2 LCs (6 attacks on the charge). Not bad for a 40 pt model.

 

In short, if you're running an all comers list with a bannered unit, definitely try to run LCs. If you're using the sanguinor, same. Both, you're mad to take PWs where there's a choice.

[Drachnon]

I actually did the mathhammer on this a while back you can find it here:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...t&p=2461393

Just a nerdy math note:

You don't need to include the 'to hit' stage in your calculations since the hit percentage is the same. (unless you want to compare them to the Glaive Excarmine).

 

When you have X attacks and Y attacks, and the hit percentage is C%. You end up with CX hits versus CY hits. The ratio of the two is CX:CY. You can factor out the C and you ratio is X:Y. So we see the ratio of hits is independant of hit percentage. :)

 

I just added it to show how the numbers came to be. Unlike your calculations where you just give the end results :P