Sanguinary Priests in DoA/Jump Army

[shatter]

Your in a vacuum argument doesn't serve DoA much. You're also making some assumptions that a player doing the assaulting is going to choose to put a priest within 3" of a fist when it's the owner of the priest that can decide to not do that via a variety of methods.

 

In short, (IMO) you're trying to favour a single playstyle and then support it with blinkered mathhammer. We'll not see eye to eye on this if you wont consider and then extrapolate all playstyles.

 

With my list, which isn't DoA, I have 3 priests with PWs. I use them for a myriad of situations. One of which is as sacrificial units versus ICs in multicharges (especially). With or without the charge, placing one into B2B with an IC deliberately can stop said IC from being able to target the rest of the unit and prevent it taking any wounds at all. Having a power weapon can mean I take a wound or two off that IC before he dies. Non PW priests can do this too, but they'll seldom dent the IC. Seeing as the monster IC took one wound from me with regards to combat resolution by killing the priest, instead of 2 to 5 or whatever, I'll end up forcing more wounds on him if he's fearless, etc. Seeing as it was in addition 'dented' by the PW, it could mean the death of him anyway. Non-PW priests don't help this part of the equation much.

 

DoA priests with PWs can move between squads and help in killiness. Say the squad one was with gets blown down to 2 or 3 models, I'd rather move it to another squad with it's own priest. This squad is now getting very killy. Non PW priests in said situation don't make the squad that much more killy. In fact they become an even more difficult liability to manage.

 

Anyway, 3 LCs/PWs on priests are worth 2.5 (45/18) non-veteran AS marines. I'd much rather have the extra strength of options of playstyles on the priests than these models. But that's just my preference.

[breng77]

Your in a vacuum argument doesn't serve DoA much. You're also making some assumptions that a player doing the assaulting is going to choose to put a priest within 3" of a fist when it's the owner of the priest that can decide to not do that via a variety of methods.

 

Actually my math made no assumption that the priest was eating the power fist so I gave you the benefit of the doubt. You actually are making an assumption that you can avoid the fist. If you don't put another model in BTB and it is within 9" Before piling in it can hit Your priest. I am not saying putting PW on a priest is wrong or bad, simply that it does not increase his surviveability. Using him to try to kill an IC, could work but it would be hard to do that in such a way that you don't tough the IC with another member of the squad. I would be more likely to want to target the priest anyway as he without him the assault squad does not scare me at all. In the DOA example I would be more likely to move the priest to a squad without a priest than to put 2 priests in one squad.

[shatter]

*snip*

If you don't put another model in BTB and it is within 9" Before piling in it can hit Your priest.

I am not saying putting PW on a priest is wrong or bad, simply that it does not increase his surviveability

*snip*

 

Right, but if one is assaulting, one can have an impact on the PF's targets, but this has nothing to do with PWs or not as he could attack either.

As for survivability, yes a PW most definately can effect it. We're only thinking about equal match-ups (in the vacuum). But neither I or you plan on making them equal, nor strategise purely in a 1v1 MEQ vs MEQ vacuum. In addition, not every unit BA faces has a hidden powerfist. *shrug*

 

I'm arguing for PWs because it gives one more options of play than we have so far acknowledged. Options of play = power in a statistical expression game. It's like robbing a bank. If one robber can think of two ways in and another can think of seven, I'm going to bet the guy with the most plan-able options gets the loot more often. Or picking up birds, the more social skills you have lined up, the better.

[breng77]

Right, but if one is assaulting, one can have an impact on the PF's targets, but this has nothing to do with PWs or not as he could attack either.

As for survivability, yes a PW most definately can effect it. We're only thinking about equal match-ups (in the vacuum). But neither I or you plan on making them equal, nor strategise purely in a 1v1 MEQ vs MEQ vacuum. In addition, not every unit BA faces has a hidden powerfist. *shrug*

 

I did not even take the PF into account in my first example as far as its effect on the Priest, I simply demonstrated that he is less durable in 2 rounds of combat than one. This is irrefutable. I you have other uses for him that is fine, I just don't see paying 90points for an additional PW attack when I can use him for other things, it is a difference of opinion on his use

 

I'm arguing for PWs because it gives one more options of play than we have so far acknowledged. Options of play = power in a statistical expression game. It's like robbing a bank. If one robber can think of two ways in and another can think of seven, I'm going to bet the guy with the most plan-able options gets the loot more often. Or picking up birds, the more social skills you have lined up, the better.

 

The robber with the better plan gets more loot not the one with more plans. More options are simply more options, it in no way makes them better options unless the first set of options is take into account in the second set. Which in this case is true, you do have the option of not using the priest in CC, but then you are paying 15 points per priest, to have that PW and in games that you do not use it much then your points have been wasted. For me it would come down to this...if I have points when I am done assembling my army I would put a PW on the priest, I would not make it an auto selection in my army.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

On the charge they strike at a higher than normal I value compared to MEQs and are ICs. If everything in B2B with them is dead, they are safe from any returning strikes. It is pretty easy to position your charge so that your Priest is only making contact with 2 models. And on average you won't wipe out a 10 man marine squad on the charge with 10 Assault Marines with a fist and a Priest with a PW anyway, so you will still be clearing them up in the opposition assault phase.

 

Close combat is the safest place to be, well if you know what you're doing.

 

G <_<

[WarpWalker]

Great discussion by the way. You both have merit in what you're saying and it's got me thinking about other avenues of play. I don't believe there is a wrong way to play the priest, just better ways.

 

Mine for example,( after reading the new faq) I started putting a power weapon on him knowing now I had to move him base to base or as close as possible. Having the power weapon didn't insure that he would survive but instead could cause as much havoc as possible. Manipulating his location during an assault can at times be difficult. On a side note can be construed as cheating as well. Though no one here is talking about that.

It's just some newer members may not understand.

 

The priests are fragile for what you pay for them. So protect them how you can. If you can't prevent them from getting into base to base. At least giving him a power weapon he can make the enemy suffer for his death.

 

Just my 2 cents. <_<

[shatter]

Clearly there are two main ways to DoA as breng77 and I have argued. Elite or horde. I favor elite as I like as much power and tactical options available per successful reserve roll. breng77 seems to favor a middle ground or horde-like approach trending a little towards more reserves rollable per turn (by virtue of point spending priority on more models or wargear on cheaper models).

 

And, once more because it's useful... bubble IC and run! for priest users everywhere. If you're going to receive a charge, like it or not, especially versus higher I troops, take heed.

 

-before move

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxx <-baddies

 

 

~21"

 

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxp <-goodies & priest

 

-after move

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxx <-baddies

 

 

 

x x x x x x x

x....... x

x............p <-priest outside of coherency, not attached.

 

-after priest run! (squad can pistol)

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <-baddies

 

 

 

x x x x x x x

x.....p....x

x...... \_run!

 

Priest cannot be assaulted... but nor can it attack.

[breng77]

I can see the use of that tactic, in certain situations. Just be careful your opponent does not have a bunch of ML or Lascannons that can target the priest who will only now get a 4+ cover against said weapons. But it is a good way to keep him out of combat.