VenDread Vs. Dread

[jjfelber]

VenDread is the same as a regular Dread with the following exceptions:

 

+1 WS

+1 BS

Venerable special rule - Can ask your opponent to re-roll a result on the vehicle damage chart.

+ 60 Pts

 

So my question is, is +1 BS/WS and venerable worth 60 pts?

First you must look at the utility of the dread. Obviously if your weapons are twin-linked the +1 BS is less necessary, but at the same time a BS 5 twin-linked means you only have a 2.7% chance to miss with each shot.

 

The +1 WS is pretty worthless if you ask me. Unless your opponent is WS 2- or 5+ the +1 WS doesnt make a difference. If fighting WS2 you shouldn't be very worried, most likely you are swarmed by a horde and you are stuck anyway. If you are struck by WS5 you are fighing a character and they are hitting on 3s instead of 4s. If they are at WS6+ the +1 doesnt matter.

 

As far as hitting goes. For 10 pts you can give your dread a WTN and always hit on a 3+ so it doesnt really matter.

 

Venerable, How I love/hate thee. This ability is awesome! Sometimes... When it works you say Hellyea! when it doesnt, you can help buy think of the wasted 200 pt Dread. Against a glancing shot, it can help because unless the shot gets a +1 on the damage chart you can always have your opponent reroll and hope for lower number. If they do get a +1 it is really good as they only have a 2.7% chance to cause a wreck. But alas, against a penetrating hit it can be pretty fickle. If the weapon gets a +1 to the damage chart you are sitting at a 50/50 chance to be wrecked, but with venerable you are looking at a 25% chance to be blown up. Against a normal shot they only have an 11.2% chance to blow you up with venerable.

 

Combine this with a 50% cover save and you are looking at 12.5% chance and a 5.5% chance to be wrecked against a pen!

 

This is very good.

So, what do you do? Bring the cheaper dread as a support unit, because there are so many ways to destroy it and you dont want to lose a chunk of your army, or Bring the more tenacious dread as a pivotal part or your army and watch your opponent throw shot after shot at it instead of at your other units?

[spartan249]

As an Iron Hands player who uses ven dreads extensively to keep with the fluff, I can say that ven dreads suck up a lot of points that could go towards more guns and more vehicles. Ven Dreads aren't really worth it anymore, GW made sure of that. However, there's no denying the fact that Ven Dreads can be very durable in all situations.

 

IMO, GW overcompensated on the ven dread's cost. They need to either reduce the cost by 10 points or add a choice of veteran skills to endow the ven dreads with for free. 60 points is ridiculously expensive for the venerable upgrade, especially when eldar have a vastly superior version for 1/3 the cost. This upgrade used to be 20 points before, and while that was too low, this is way too high. Strike that damn balance GW!

[jjfelber]

The 60 pts is also for a +1 BS, forget the WS. This plus one makes your weapons hit at 83.3% instead of a 66.6% chance, and your twin-linked weapons hit at 97.3% instead of 88.8%

This makes your Multi-Melta Drop Pod dread miss only 1 out of 5 times instead of 1 out of 3. This also makes our rifleman dread miss only 1 out of 32 time! instead of 1 every 10.

 

 

Not saying you are right or wrong, just playing Horus's Advocate.

[breng77]

The key to venerable dreads is the venerable rule (which IMO is better in older codices when it was a 20 point upgrade). Depending on what weapons you give your dread (if they are twin linked) the +1 BS while nice is mostly overkill. +1 WS does not help all that much, it means you hit a little easier, but dreads are pretty weak in CC if they are fighting something that can actually hurt them. So it comes down to Venerable. This improves the durability of the dread, but if you think about it if you are taking more than one dread, you can get 3 normal dreads for the cost of 2 Venerable dreads (less actually) so 3 dreads would mostly be more durable than 2, and mroe effective in shooting.

 

As to the venerable rule, as a rule I never ask my opponent to reroll anything but a 5 or a 6 (penetrating or glancing). These are the most damaging results, and this strategy keeps your dread up and running longest (especially a shooty dread, where immobilized is not that bad)

[Ikken]

i was looking at dreads the other day while doing up a list . Personally I think the ven option is over priced , for 60 points you can add a stock predator , which would add another target at front av 13 and give you more shooting for the same money .

if you could still take him as an HQ option like we could in the old codex then things would be different . if as an HQ if we could add sagas and what not that would be totally worth the 60 points for that option but for what he does as an elite only slot the 60 points for the ven upgrade i don't see being worth it.

[jjfelber]

A Little off topic, but can a dread be shaken? If a dread has a weapon to shoot can it always shoot?

Does anyone put extra armor on a dread at 15pts?

[breng77]

Yes a Dread can be shaken. I have put EA on CC venerable dreads before. It is really anoying for your opponent to have so many shots reduced to Shaken (66% of all glancing hits, and 33% of all Penetrating hits.) With the venerable reroll, nothing is worse for an opponent to have a destroyed rerolled into a shaken.

[Growler67]

if you could still take him as an HQ option like we could in the old codex then things would be different . if as an HQ if we could add sagas and what not that would be totally worth the 60 points for that option but for what he does as an elite only slot the 60 points for the ven upgrade i don't see being worth it.

 

I rarely play anymore but THIS was the first thing I noticed when the new Codex was released. I TOTALLY agree with what you said here. Perhaps even limiting the list of Sagas it can take or offering other balancing options. I always took the VenDread when I had the points before, it was worth it then. It WAS Majestic, Inspiring and all those things that encompass Venerable. It could even change the conditions of the game - if it went down it became an instant objective (maybe make it worth double the usual Objective Points for either side). Turn immediately following it going down all units within 12" get "Rally" (or something) to secure the Ancient One from enemy before they can desecrate it. I guess "Saga of Majesty" is the optional offset. Whatever.

 

If I played now, I think I would just play a regular one and add the extra armor if I had the points. Wouldn't go crazy about them because they would be played as bullet magnets anyway, at least for a turn so I could manuver my forces. Anything more than a single turn would be gravy, at least againstwhat used to be my usual enemies.

 

I wonder if that was maybe intended by GW and just overlooked or mistakenly left out when it went to press. Perhaps we can hope that a new FAQ will rectify this a year after the fact. Fingers crossed but not holding my breath. As it is I don't think it's worth it's cost.

[jjfelber]

I liked last edition where our venerable dreadnoughts were something no one else could get. It seemed very wolfy. Now everyone can get a venerable and it doesn't seem as sweet. Kinda like the Ford Mustang. Just not special anymore. It would even be better if there was a saga you could take that would make the dread count as an HQ instead. I liked being able to bring 2 or 3 dreads and still have slots for our awesome scouts and Wolfguard. Now I have to pick and choose and I am always sad I have to leave a unit behind. (I cant bring just one dread, 2 or none.) Then they gave us Lonewolves as an elite choice. Just too many cool elites.

 

Anyway, back to the original post, do you bring your rifleman dreads into combat if needed or just wait until he gets charged?

[SJumppanen]

Anyway, back to the original post, do you bring your rifleman dreads into combat if needed or just wait until he gets charged?

 

Depending of the situation, but if the enemy can't hurt the Dread (like MEQs without the fist or melta bombs) then why not to charge them and just keep them locked to the CC?