Feeling kind of silly...

[dswanick]

but I had a debate with a guy at my local store tonight concerning Psychic Shooting attacks. I have been under the impression that to use a Psychic Shooting attack you first roll a Psychic test. With a successful Psychic test you can now use the Psychic Shooting attack which would require to-hit rolls, to-wound rolls/armor penetration, saves, and wounds/damage table results - as applicable. He disagreed, stating that the Psychic test takes the place of the to-hit roll - that a successful use of a Psychic Shooting attack goes right to the wounds step. Of course I asked him to "show me in the rulebook", which he wasn't able to do. He was adamant, though, and I felt bad for the kid so I let him have it. Still, it did strike me as both somwhat vague in the rulebook and odd that it requires that extra layer of a Psychic test to get some wounds on a target which could then be nulled by a fistful of misses. Can anyone either confirm this kids opinion or point to anything in the BRB that definitively confirms one stance or the other? Thanks guys.

[LPetersson]

I can't point to a rule (Well, I can't point to anything really since I'm a bit toasted :P but that's besides the point), but in my group/area we've always played that if you pass the psychich test then you've automatically hit and the reason why certain powers are called 'psychic shooting attacks' is so the Rune Priest/psyker can't also fire a normal weapon.

 

I'm sure someone will contradict me though...

[Dan VK]

I cannot find any place in the BRB that states a model making a psychic shooting attack must roll to hit. Conversely, I cannot find any place in the BRB that states a psychic shooting attack is exempted from the normal rules for shooting.

 

I support the "show me where it says that" interpretation; using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon BRB page 50, therefore it follows the normal rules for firing a ranged weapon unless otherwise specified. The rules for shooting are clearly defined, including rolling to hit, and the PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACKS section of the BRB does not exclude psychic shooting attacks from any of the rules for shooting.

[Phosis]

I'd never fire Wind of Chaos with Ahriman into a unit, covering 3-5 models with my green flamer template only to turn around and say that I automatically hit the rear of someone's vindicator later in the game with an AP1 Bolt of Change just because Ahriman passed a psychic check.

 

Roll to hit, people.

[Legatus]

There are several psychic shooting attacks that will automatically have a described effect after you pass the psychic test.

 

Take for example the power "Thunderclap" in Codex Space Wolves: "A Rune Priest may use Thunderclap as a psychic shooting attack. Place the large blast marker so that it is touching the Rune Priest. Any enemy model touched by the marker takes a S3 hit with an AP of 5."

It is a Psychic shooting attack, but if the psychic test is successful you proceed as described in the power's description. There is no to-hit roll and no scatter. You place the large blast marker as described and apply the result.

 

Or take "Murderous Hurricane", also from Codex Space Wolves: "This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 18". The target unit takes 3D6 Strength 3 hits with AP -."

Again it is described as a shooting attack, but you do not "fire 3D6 shots", no, the enemy unit immediately suffers 3D6 hits. There is no to-hit roll. You roll 3D6 and that is the number of times the unit is hit.

 

In contrast, this is how "Living Lightning" from the Codex Space Wolves is described: "Living Lightning is a psychic shooting attack with the profile shown below:"

Range: Unlimited / Strength: 7 / AP: 5 / Assault D6

That is presented like a ranged weapon profile. It would be somewhat improper to give an "assault X" profile if that was not the number of attempted shots, as it usually is, but was instead meant as an immediate number of hits inflicted. The previous power, "Murderous Hurricane" was described as inflicting 3D6 hits. This power has a ranged weapon profile with D6 shots.

 

 

Here are a few examples from Codex Blood Angels:

 

Blood Boil: This power is a psychic shooting attack that hits automatically an enemy unit within 12". One model in that unit suffers a wound with no armour save allowed.

 

Fear of the Darkness: This power is a psychic shooting attack that hits automatically an enemy unit within 24". That unit must immediately take a Morale test with a -2 penalty to their Leadership.

 

Shackle soul: This power is a psychic shooting attack that hits automatically an enemy unit within 12". Until the end of its next turn, the target unit must pass a Leadership test each time it wishes to move, run, shoot or assault - if the test is failed, the action cannot be performed.

 

Smite: This Power is a psychic shooting attack that has the following profile:

Range: 12" / Strength: 4 / AP: 2 / Assault 4

 

See the difference? It seems out of place to describe the attack as a ranged weapon with "Assault 4" if it was simply supposed to automatically inflict 4 hits with S4 and AP2 at a target within 12".

 

 

Also, there are the following describtions in Codex Space Marines:

 

Machine Curse: This power is a psychic shooting attack with a range of 24" that only affects vehicles. If the Machine Curse hits, the target vehicle automatically suffers a single glancing hit.

 

Note the "if the Machine Curse hits". No other power is ever described as "if the test is successful, this is what it does". The descriptions all assume that a power is used and describe their effect. So that requiret "hit" is something other than the psychic test.

 

Vortex of Doom: This Power is a psychic shooting attack and has the following profile:

Range: 12" / Strength: 10 / AP: 1 / Heavy 1, Blast

If when using this power the Librarian fails his psychic test, place the Vortex of Doom blast marker on the Librarian - in this case the template will not scatter.

 

In other words, normally when using that power the Template could be expected to scatter, just like the normal "to hit" procedure for 'Blast' weapons.

 

 

There is also the Space Wolves' "Chooser of the Slain" familiar, which grants the Rune Priest +1 on his BS when using a "shooting attack" against an enemy unit within LOS of the familiar. This would be not as interresting if it was only working with the limited selection of weapons the Rune Priest could chose from, which he will likely disregard in favour of some of his psychic attacks anyway. It becomes much more interresting if the Rune Priest can use the familiar in conjunction with a few of his psychic shooting attacks, such as "Living Lightning" (which has unlimited range) or "Fury of the Wolf Spirits".

[Dan VK]

There are [logic, logic, logic]

:lol:

[Grey Mage]

There are [logic, logic, logic]

:lol:

Indeed, Legatus is correct in my opinion- it might not be stated in large bold letters, but from the context of the rules it seems a fairly obvious one and Id ask an opponent to prove me wrong if they wanted to skip the part where they roll to hit.

[MrBlack]

There are also Psychic Shooting attacks (example: Codex: Tyranids) that state they automatically hit the target. Please note if that was how it normally worked that rule would not need to be stated.

[dswanick]

Thanks, all. It seemed pretty clear to me too. But the kid was young and very earnest. I felt a little bad calling him on it, as I was just looking for a quick, fun game and he was so sure it was the other way. Guess I'm just getting old, and soft...

[Commander Sasha]

Thanks, all. It seemed pretty clear to me too. But the kid was young and very earnest. I felt a little bad calling him on it, as I was just looking for a quick, fun game and he was so sure it was the other way. Guess I'm just getting old, and soft...

You, sir, are a credit to the game. This is exactly how rules disputes should be sorted out, outside of tournaments. The game matters more than the win.

[nurglez]

heh, I've always played MH that I need to roll to hit, whoops!

 

but I agree with the points above, some need to roll to hit and some don't, read the codex entry!

[awfulawful]

There are logic, logic, logic.

 

This is one of the most helpful posts I've ever seen in this forum. Well done sir, well done.

[Dan VK]

Thanks, all. It seemed pretty clear to me too. But the kid was young and very earnest. I felt a little bad calling him on it, as I was just looking for a quick, fun game and he was so sure it was the other way. Guess I'm just getting old, and soft...

You, sir, are a credit to the game. This is exactly how rules disputes should be sorted out, outside of tournaments. The game matters more than the win.

:)