Space Wolf Legion before Fenris

[Lord Lee]

Hi Guys

I have a quick question that has been bugging me.

I read somewhere (maybe here on the B&C) that the reason there are no Space Wolf successor Chapters is because the Gene Seed won't work on humans that are not from Fenris. If this is correct how was there a Legion for Russ to take command of before the Emperor reached Fenris?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Lord Lee.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

*cough* Fenris *cough*

 

I do not think that is true. The Wolves had both Terrans and Fenrisians at the start of the Great Crusade, showing that the SW geneseed does work on non-Fenrisians.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

thanks for being subtle willy.

 

WLk

[Grey Mage]

Well, theres a fairly straightforward answer:

 

Before the heresy: The emperor knows what hes doing, and makes the terran half of the legion.

 

After the heresy: the emperor is rarely available for comment.

 

He knew how to stabilize the gene-seed in terrans, probly anyone for that matter, now adays they dont.

[clanfield]

its posable that over the generations the canis helix has changed some what so pre fenris wolves were marines of grey ilk after the uniteing of primarch and legion the need to use recruits from fenris becomes more of a need than a choice

[Quillen]

WHat we know is the Wolf Brothers disappeared. And my have been excamunicated for their mutaition.

 

of Course all chapters of late weem to have mutaition or some other flaw they all have to hide.

 

It could have been as simple as the Lords of Terra wanted them out of the way. Would you want a second chapter like the SpaceWolves stopping your murder of whole planets because of personal rights and moral beliefs?

 

I think they may have had some mutaion problem. Maybe the 1k sons found a way to hurt them. Maybe the planet they moved to was bad for them in some way. Maybe it was all lies to discrete them and prevent them making more and more chapters that would fight for the Emperor's Dreams not the High Lords of terra's power grabs. So who can really say.

[Orphus]

So you want to know how there were space wolves before, well...space wolves, ok. When the Emperor--- *Does a Double take at OP title then at OP itself*...confusing... :P

 

Righty-oh, then I will to attempt to answer what I think you could be asking. The Wolf Brothers were created during what was called the 'second founding' where after the Horus Heresy "Lord Smurf" asked all the remaining Loyalist space marines to divide into smaller groups called chapters so no one being could control so many powerful fighters at one time like Horus did. The Wolf Brothers were and have been the only attempt the SW ever made to split their legion. This was because the SW split was a complete failure, with mutation and an early wulfen-like curse rampant throughout the early days of the new chapter. It eventually wiped itself out IIRC, with not one marine to remain. I think the Canis Helix couldn't handle the constant gene spits required for another chapter other than space Wolves.

 

The Emperor made the primarchs out of himself but Chaos intervened and wisked the infant primarchs far away (just think of Disney's 'Hercules' to get the drift, except instead of some bearded guy In an oversized toga yelling Nooooooo! it's some equivintally old shiny black haired dude in gold eagle space armour yelling Noooooo! at the loss of his offspring being snatched from him) however the E-man still had the DNA of his children so (through cloning I think) made the first space marines. The first SWs weren't 'SWs' yet, just the 3rd [ or 6th help me out somebody! ] legion until Russ took them as his own and named them the Space Wolves.

 

Of course, even in the 39th millennium cloning isn't an easy way out as it can be slow and dangerous so the Space Wolves need humans and what better place to source them from then Fenris!

[clanfield]

what he said .....but,i thinkthe canis helix and the fenrisian people changed or that combination of genes alterd the helix over the millenium to provid what we see as space wolves today in 41st prior to the legion recruiting from fenris the inital gene pool was terran and there for diferant enviromental issues etc were at play

however as the progonoids were latter harvested from a restricted gene pool that of fenris it slowly changed the nature of the helix thus changeing the marines and thu over the generations adapting it to what exists now

[Icewolf]

IIRC the legions could only increase thee numbers slowly without there primarch, so when Russ was found he was able to increase the rate at which SW were created and this requied using Russ's DNA so this could be where the change to the geenseed came from.

 

Icewolf

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

I think what the OP is trying to find out is how was there a Space Wolf Legion before Russ was found on Fenris.....

 

It all leads back to the Emperor and his Creations the Primarchs, now all of them were genetically engineered super-beings that used Homo Sapiens DNA as a base template for the Primarchs. As a result genetically unaltered humans are capable of accepting some of the enhancements the emperor designed in the primarchs and could make space marines. When the Primarchs were abducted the Emperor using the enhancements created the legions of the Founding Chapters and started looking for the primarchs, when he found one the primarch was given command of his legion and the warriors that usually were serving that primarch were enhanced if they were capable of accepting the Gene Seed. The newer warriors change wasn't as compatible as the marines the emperor had created.

 

So when the Emperor met up with Russ, there was already a Terran Conceived Space Wolf Legion battle hardened and ready to fight.

 

As for the Wolf Brothers, I think that it was the Space Wolves attempting to tell the Imperial bean counters LEAVE US ALONE!! I am sure that the Great Wolf at the time told the Iron Priests and the Wolf Priests to collect the gene seed from all the worst tricksters and trouble makers and ship it over to the Imperium and let them deal with the results.

[Jaton666]

As for the Wolf Brothers, I think that it was the Space Wolves attempting to tell the Imperial bean counters LEAVE US ALONE!! I am sure that the Great Wolf at the time told the Iron Priests and the Wolf Priests to collect the gene seed from all the worst tricksters and trouble makers and ship it over to the Imperium and let them deal with the results.

 

I like that idea. Sending all the guys most likely to fall to the wulfen curse would stop later interference and also strengthen the remaining gene pool.

[Valerian]

The Wolf Brothers were and have been the only attempt the SW ever made to split their legion. This was because the SW split was a complete failure, with mutation and an early wulfen-like curse rampant throughout the early days of the new chapter. It eventually wiped itself out IIRC, with not one marine to remain. I think the Canis Helix couldn't handle the constant gene spits required for another chapter other than space Wolves.

 

No, no, and no again. Orphus, none of this is anywhere in the fluff.

 

To the OP, I'm on my iPhone away from home, soni can't go in complete detail, however, I've done it before and you just need to do a search within this forum for "+wolfbrothers +valerian" (without the quotes) to find the right threads.

 

Essentially, the gist of the answer to you is that Russ' DNA was used to establish the VI Legion from Terran stock by the Emperor with no significant issues. When united with Russ and renamed the Space Wolves, his Legion began selecting recruits only from Fenris because it was a deathworld with a culture that created the right kind of lad to be a candidate to become a Son of Russ. There is nothing in the fluff to suggest other humans wouldn't work too, just like those original Terran-based "Space Wolves". In fact, one of the old articles on Lost Companies even suggests that they might start recruiting from there new base of operations in order for a Lost Company to survive for the long term.

 

The most specific data on the "I'll-fated" Wolfbrothers Chapter is that the entire Chapter disappeared into an Eldar Webway portal to escape a fleeing Eldar force. This happened in M37, so the Wolfbrothers fought as a Chapter for the Imperium for over 6,000 years before their disappearance.

 

In the codices there have been three reasons given for not having any other successors:

1. Leman Russ chose not to allow it more than once.

2. Space Wolves were already a small Legion (having 15,000 Marines pre-heresy), and many less by the end of the Heresy and Great Scouring), so only had enough men left to split once. Or

3. High Lords decided not to create more successors because of the mutation inherent in Russ geneseed.

 

For this last point, we all know how the Curse of the Wulfen afflicts the Space Wolves, and that would be reason to use other geneseed with less issues to create new foundings. The Canis Helix has claimed the lives of millions of Fenrisians who failed the transformation to Space Marine. That alone is cause for pause. There is almost nothing elsewhere in the fluff to suggest that the Wolfbrothers suffered any more or less than the Space Wolves themselves do from mutation.

 

If you wish to refute this, then I suggest you bring quotes, as I've got plenty.

 

Regards,

 

Loremaster Valerian

[Vash113]

*cough* Fenris *cough*

 

I do not think that is true. The Wolves had both Terrans and Fenrisians at the start of the Great Crusade, showing that the SW geneseed does work on non-Fenrisians.

 

This is not entirely true, we know many of the Primarchs changed drastically due to the planets they arrived on and from their trip through the warp. This would invariably have had an effect on their genetics and therefore their gene-seed. Thus the Primarch's gene-seed from the Emperor's templates used to create the Terran Legionaries and that taken from the Primarch's after their rediscovery and the creation of the New Legion Marines would almost certainly have been different. This difference could be extremely subtle, or it could be far more obvious. For instance I doubt it is a coincidence that Sanguinius was mutated in his trip through the warp and grew wings and ever after the Blood Angels have had an inexplicable love for flight...

 

Not to mention indications from A Thousand Sons point towards the Fenresians actually having some mutations dating back to the colonization of the world from the first Terran expansion. I find it very hard to believe that a Legion based off of subtly mutated recruits would not have difficulty applying their gene-seed to other planetary populations. Do not forget that gene-seed absorbs genetic data from the Marines it is implanted in, thus any mutations inherent in those marines will be present in the gene-seed. Which is why any contamination in the marine spoils the purity of the implanted gene-seed. This was most recently reinforced in the new Ciaphis Cain novel.

 

Lastly, if I recall correctly, we have no real indication that the Terran Marines exhibited any of the Space Wolves noted mutations and traits, such as the Curse of the Wulfen.

 

We do not know exactly whether these things might be the reason for the lack of successors, it might be purely political. We just don't know, but there are nevertheless strong implications towards genetic reasons. S'all I'm saying.

 

If you wish to refute this, then I suggest you bring quotes, as I've got plenty.

 

I have no wish for a long debate on this subject Valerian, you've made your argument many times already. I will just say that you are conveniently ignoring multiple contradicting accounts on the fate of the Wolf Brothers, as well as significant Horus Heresy material about the Primarchs and the divide between Old and New Legion marines established by the new Black Library series. Simply put, the situation is not nearly as clear cut as you indicate. Like many events in 40k background there are numerous conflicts and holes in the story, we cannot make a claim with any real degree of certainty as there are just too many contradictions with this material in particular.

[Valerian]

Hi there Vash,

 

No problem, we can probably forgo a drawn out debate; as you stated, I have made my position clear in the past. I would like to know, however what the multiple other sources as to the fate of the Wolfbrothers are that I am conveniently ignoring; can you please provide those sources? I've got every edition of the codices, and every White Dwarf article on Space Wolves at my disposal, and I've found only one mention of a possible Wolfbrothers disbanding, and that is in the 13th Company Index Astartes article, of all places, where it mentions that scenario as a possibility, not at all definitively. If there are other instances, again, please provide the quotes, or at least the source.

 

You are correct, in that I do ignore the Black Library pulp fiction, as I have no interest in those, and do not consider them to be canon fluff, as the don't come from the Studio like the White Dwarf articles and codices do. Regardless, I don't believe any of those books have addressed the fate of the Wolfbrothers anyway, so I believe this is largely irrelevant. Have any of those BL books stated that non-Fenrisians cannot become Space Wolves? I rather doubt that they have, so nothing that I told the OP is incorrect.

 

Regards,

 

V

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Valerian.

 

What WDs are the Wolves mentioned in [as in, articles of reasonable substance, if you catch my drift]?

[Valerian]

Valerian.

 

What WDs are the Wolves mentioned in [as in, articles of reasonable substance, if you catch my drift]?

 

MW,

 

No problem, mate! These are the best (all US versions; don't know what the UK versions are):

 

156 and 157 (Dec 92 and Jan 93), established the "modern" Space Wolves as we know them.

244, 245, and 246 (May, June, and July of 2000), all of the fluff that was left out of the newly released 3rd Edition minuses were in articles in these three issues. There is some terrific stuff in here, as well as a copy and paste from the old issue 156 article.

283 (2004) has the 13th Company Index Astartes article, with the Saga of Jorin Bloodfang.

 

258 has the Space Wolves IA article, which is largely a rehash of earlier work seen in 156 and 246.

 

Of course, the second edition codex is a great resource, too.

 

In my not so humble opinion, if you can get your paws on these, then you'll have everything you need to know about Space Wolves Lore. Surprisingly, all of the fluff in these throughout the years has been largely consistent, with no major revisions or retcons to the major themes or issues.

 

V

[Tsavong Lah]

When I get back to home base I can provide copies, if you néed them.

 

I don't know about Wilhelm, but I wouldn't mind seeing them. :)

[Marshal Wilhelm]

Thank you Valerian :)

 

When I get back to home base I can provide copies, if you néed them.

 

I don't know about Wilhelm, but I wouldn't mind seeing them. :tu:

 

My brother has all the WDs, but I'm sure others would enjoy seeing them.

[Grimtooth]

OP, read the Space Wolves and Space Marines codices. Both explicitly point out that the Emperor created the Space Marine Legions from their Primarch's genetic stock. All 20 Legions were created ths way before the Great Crusade and the discovery of the individual Primarchs.

[Valerian]

Disregard

[calgar101]

Within the Pre-Heresy Legion the 'Wolf brothers' were those Veteran Fenrisian warriors -chieftains, veterans etc- that even being warned by Russ they'd likely die, still requested to make the transformation from human to Space Wolf. Many of these older Warriors (in their 30's) died but the ones who survived became known with in the legion was the 'Wolf Brothers'. So then Post Heresy when the legions were split, the Wolf Brothers were made into a chapter and for a while survived but as new marines were inducted the gene seed from the older marines (the guys who were made into marines at an older age) was used but was not at all stable. The Chapter couldn't sustain itself which led to the chapter being dis-banded and the Space Wolf gene seed labelled too unstable to use.

 

That is just my theory ;)

[Valerian]

Within the Pre-Heresy Legion the 'Wolf brothers' were those Veteran Fenrisian warriors -chieftains, veterans etc- that even being warned by Russ they'd likely die, still requested to make the transformation from human to Space Wolf. Many of these older Warriors (in their 30's) died but the ones who survived became known with in the legion was the 'Wolf Brothers'. So then Post Heresy when the legions were split, the Wolf Brothers were made into a chapter and for a while survived but as new marines were inducted the gene seed from the older marines (the guys who were made into marines at an older age) was used but was not at all stable. The Chapter couldn't sustain itself which led to the chapter being dis-banded and the Space Wolf gene seed labelled too unstable to use.

 

That is just my theory :P

 

The use of the term "wolfbrother" is used in 4 different ways in relation to Space Wolves in the fluff, and none are directly related to the others.

 

1. The Wolfbrothers Chapter was the only successor Chapter to the Space Wolves (multiple sources).

2. Young Fenrisian boys fight together in Wolfbrother packs, seeking to gain honor and gain the attention of the Sky Warriors of Fenris, hoping to be selected by the Choosers of the Valiant to join their ranks (WD 156 and 2nd Edition Codex).

3. The 13th Company, whose Wolf Lord Jorin Bloodfang chose the Wulfen as his Great Companies' totem, were known also as the Wolf Brothers (IIRC WD 246 and 283 Index Astartes article for 13th Company)

4. Lastly, as just pointed out, Russ' fellow Fenrisian warriors who chose to attempt transformation to Marine past adolescence (not in any core fluff, but some Black Library author thought the term hadn't been used enough yet).

 

V

[Tsavong Lah]

When I get back to home base I can provide copies, if you néed them.

 

I don't know about Wilhelm, but I wouldn't mind seeing them. :)

 

Just send a PM with your email address. Will be a week or so, though.

 

Fantastic, thanks! PM sent.

[Lord Lee]

Hi Guys

Thank you for all your info and input, sorry about the incorrect spelling of your home world :( I am not a Space Wolf player myself, my friend is starting a Space Wolf army and I am getting informed on his army background by reading the Codex and looking around the internet in Space Wolf forums.

 

Again Thanks.

 

Lord Lee out :devil: .

[wolfpack]

...by canon..and not sure what articles as I have slept since then...but there have been several mentions of harvesting geneseed from fallen comrades...correct? is this not the common practice and one of the tenants of the Wolf Priest brotherhood?

...so if the fallen brothers were of terran origin??wouldn't it be feesible that those geneseed would work in aspirants from worlds other than fenris as they would be pure strain terran??...original stock from the emperors own hand??

yes there have been mutations as is due to occur in any biological situation...addaptation and natural selection and all that science based crap...but that does not necessarily mean that ALL the geneseed has been changed or mutated...

 

what about those brothers who still fight in lost companies that number from the original legion??

what about those brothers whom are never mentioned that fight in the current chapter and are from the original legion??...isn't Logan himself a 'pup who fought beside Bjorn?'

 

Just wonderin if I'm missin something here...