"Counts As"

[Requiemnex]

Preface: I play iron warriors using the current codex book. That being said I sort of HATE the current models for Obliterators.. I think they are a good concept but I have yet to buy one that I did not have to green stuff in their bell and several other parts needed to be shaved down. Maybe I just have really bad luck... So I really wanted to put 2 Chaos Space Marines on a 40mm base with special weapons to represent the obliterator. I believe we have a Night Lords player on these forums who has done something simaler *hint* *hint*.

 

Rules Question: Under the counts as "rule" granted I know my local store over rides any sort of rule such as this but how would this violate the current rules as written. As I read them this should be viable?

[greatcrusade08]

aslong as its recognisable as something like it, or different enough so people wont mistake it during a game its normally ok.. with WYSIWYG you might have to put a couple of heavy weapons on them. maybe TDA too

[Dan VK]

I am with GC08. I ask my opponent's permission to use models that are not WYSIWYG, and as long as I do not have a squad with five meltaguns and five plasma guns where the red meltagun is actually a plasma pistol and the blue plasma gun is actually a power fist more players do not object. I do not know how well substitution goes over at tournaments, however.

 

Where are there rules for 'counts as' in the BRB, by the way? I could only find the WYSIWYG box in the section describing Independent Characters.

[Dhx711]

There is no counts as rule in the BRB.

 

I'd be ok with it but I could see how the smaller PA body (as compaired to the generaly larger obit/TDA body) might raise issues with line of sight.

 

Your safest bet as mentioned above would be to use the simalar sized TDA bodies with the obit arms attached.

[Requiemnex]

There is no counts as rule in the BRB.

 

I'd be ok with it but I could see how the smaller PA body (as compaired to the generaly larger obit/TDA body) might raise issues with line of sight.

 

Your safest bet as mentioned above would be to use the simalar sized TDA bodies with the obit arms attached.

 

Sounds like this is what I am going to have to do... Blarg... Oh well.

 

There isnt a "Counts As" section in the rule book but there are several excerts in boxes that talk about if for instance your raptors would suite your army better with wings than you can model them with wings and they can "count as" a jump pack.

[breng77]

I would go with Chaos termies, I have seen plenty of Obilts converted up from termies, using bits from various special weapons. If you ahve a lot of bits this is a much cheaper option than buying the metal oblits.

[Dan VK]

You could ask your opponent if he is comfortable with you substituting the converted two-man fire teams for Obliterators, and if he is not then have Obliterators with a bare-bones paint job handy. Most players I have encountered do not mind substitutions unless they convey some advantage.

[thade]

There is no counts as rule in the BRB.

 

There is a very definite allusion to it in the WYSIWYG box on the first page of the Character chapter, as well as a clear reference to it in almost every Codex's Army List first page, but you're right, it's never directly stated. I've yet to meet a player who doesn't operate by it though, making me wonder if - in previous editions - it was more clearly spelled out. Despite the fact it's not RAW, I've seen it be pretty consistent both in clubs and on these forums.

 

In general, if a model can't be confused as being anything else in your army, and your opponent sees eye to eye with you on that (including any TO where applicable), you're good to go: that model can Counts-As anything you like. There are several cases that this can come up in:

 

1. The model doesn't exist: Sometimes it's necessary. For instance, there exists no Conversion Beamer model currently in production by Games Workshop, so glueing together tubes and sticks and saying "This is my conversion beamer" is a Counts-As instance that; one that can't really be refused, I should hope. :)

2. You hate the way the existing model looks, doesn't fit the theme of your army, whatever. This can vary from something subtle (sticking extra claw bits all over a DCCW and saying it counts as a DCCW) to something big (say you carve out the chassis of your Dreadnought and model a marine pilot there, a la Sigourney Weaver in the Loading Machine in Aliens) to something extreme (modeling a massive terminator model with a CML and declaring it a Counts-As Dreadnought with a Missile Rack). In all of these cases, opponent consent is required.

3. You want to proxy something that you don't own, possibly to try it out before you buy it. For instance, say you want to try out a Whirlwind and own only Predators...so you field a predator, distinguish it in some way (e.g. put a marker on it, pull the turret off of it, or just point out that it's got a significantly different paint job) and declare it Counts-As a WW. Or maybe you want to try plasma guns and have only melta guns modelled. In these cases, it's okay...so long as it can't get confused for anything else. It's fine to have melta guns count as Plasma Guns so long as you don't also have straight-up WYSIWYG melta guns on the field; that would lead to confusion as to which is a plasma gun and which is a melta.

 

All that said, I once allowed an opponent to proxy a dice cube as a Drop Pod. I figured it hit the ground pretty hard and dug in or something, and the marines inside dug their way out because - well - they're freakin Space Marines. Not every opponent is like me in that way, but many are. As long as what you're doing is not confusing and you're polite about it, Counts-As will always be your friend.

 

Counts-As is huge for DIY as well, and is supported by codexes, for instance a quote from the BA codex: "you just need to come up with a new name," spelling out that it is allowable for you to use a BA Special Character in an army that uses the BA codex but is not Blood Angels.

[Rakene]

I know my friend got a few Black Reach Terminators and a Devastator box and combined them to make quite passable Obliterators.

[Isiah]

OK this one's been answered pretty comprehensively I think so thanks to those that have done so.

 

However as it's now straying into areas no longer purely rules-related per se it will be closed. Any further rules issues arising feel free to PM either myself or Grey Mage and we'll consider reopening it.

 

 

Cheers

I