Honor Guard vs Command Squad vs. Vanguard

[Brother Captain Ed]

So, this is mostly directed at Captain Idaho, but obviously all insight in welcome.

 

In a couple threads (which are muddled with other topics) the viability of using Honor Guard as a CC hammer (especially with your HQ unit) has come up repeatedly, primarily with Captain Idaho championing their cause. Personally, I've always written them off too expensive, but I'm curious about differing points of view.

 

From what I've seen when it comes to giving your captain a posse (with which to beat faces as opposed to shoot them), the Command Squad is the most obvious choice as you can give them a bunch of storm shields, power weapons, and Feel No Pain to hit like a ton of bricks. Alternatively, I've seen some folks advocate Vanguard Vets as they add another relic blade, but cost more for the same bodies and lack Feel No Pain.

 

Now I want to like Honor Guard. Veterans wearing artificer armor all wielding relic blades? Yes, please! But the double whammy of losing an invul save AND Feel No Pain compared to a Command Squad (which also costs slightly less) seems like a raw deal. So am I overstating the value of the storm shields and apothecary? Or perhaps I just need to adjust the role that my brain is trying to assign them to?

 

Please, if you will, take a moment to really discuss and/or analyze the viability of Honor Guards through gear, implemation, etc. I know you've done a fair amount of talking in other threads, but I was hoping you could devote some thoughts to them and them alone without consideration to the rest of the specific army's goals, opponents, etc.

 

And, of course, if you are not Captain Idaho, I'd still like to hear your insights. I feel like there's something I'm missing here, but it could just be a matter of approaching the game differently and not comprehending the value of certain entries like some of the more seasoned hands.

 

Thank you for your time!

[Captain Idaho]

I'll put a detailed reply up tomorrow, but we shall see what other people have to say on their inclusion.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I think what you have to consider is that as a base the honour guard are 3 strong, the command squad is 5 both at 115 i believe.

 

However the honour guard are given power weapons and artificer armour as a base cost whilst the command squad are barebones.

 

At a glance it seems the honour guard have less weapons and numbers and wargear options than the command squad and less special rules, I think it is at this point many people get put off and dislike them, thing is the honour guard are a step above the command squad and with good reason.

 

The honour guard get power weapons and a reasonable armour save to boot, with access to relic blades and auxilary grenade launchers. Combined with the chapter master you have a deadly unit even with nothing but the base models. Its hard to get access to a unit that can be increased to larger in number than the command squad with that number of power weapons and relic blades anywhere else!

 

Now the thing is with honour guard they usually aim to kill most (if not all) of the enemy before they can punch back and stand a good chance of doing so, the lack of apocathery and storm shields suggests that they aren't supposed to waiting around to get smashed up and its worth taking the time to target appropriate units. Even small units can kill an awful lot, more with a chaplain!

[greatcrusade08]

they are 35 points each which is cheaper than termies..

the champion is WS5 and has special abilities to help take down ICs, he can have a TH or relic blade (the obvious choice)

the banner they have gives the unit +1A each.. which is devestating and obviously worth more the more HG you take.

 

im sure people will compare them to CC termies which is a mistake.. TH/SS termies provide a different role.. claw termies make for a decent comparison, and the real davntages are re-rolls to wound and the 5++ inv. bearing in mind that model for model HG are slightly cheaper and have more attacks (with the banner).. they can also use other transports than an expensive LR.

it should be noted as a unit HG would probably work out slightly more expensive than termies man for man, but the banner and champ are more than worth the cost.

 

The "idaho pattern" IIRC is a master with relic blade and SS, and 5 HG with relic blade on champ and banner in a rhino or razorback

the SS provides the defence against the odd plasma or PW hit and the Ic can tarpit the unit sergeants letting the squad type up the butchers bill.

 

unlike TH/SS termies, HG (like claw terms) are a scalpel, finnesse unit that should be used to bully other troops chocies, they do well against tac/assault squads.. but should avoid multiple PWs.

supported well they can take on other HQ choices.. but initiative plays a big role.

[Jackelope King]

Honor Guard have two significant disadvantages, and two modest advantages.

 

The good first. Artificer Armor + Power Swords are nice, increasing their durability moderately well (2+ armor save and striking at I4 ain't bad). So is coming as a +1A bubble with the Chapter Banner. And they do hit reasonably hard, and will dice up most heavily-armored infantry. MEQs will die in droves to honor guard. The other significant advantage they have is numbers: you can get a big Honor Guard squad that'll bring a lot of attacks and a lot of bodies wearing 2+ saves, and those bodies can all ride in a Land Raider (no taking up two spots like Terminators do). The perk of the Chapter Champion is cool too.

 

But oi, the cost. Honor Guard are very expensive, in both of the ways that you have to consider. Honor Guard have their significant points cost, to be sure, but they also require a weak HQ choice. The Chapter Master costs 25 extra points for an Orbital Bombardment (a Hail Mary pass of a weapon) and can't pull off the Mounted Assault (Biker Captains are one of the single strongest ways in the Codex to field a Captain and really rock that WS6 I5, especially with a Relic Blade). The Chapter Master also fails to bring to the table the sheer utility or flexibility of a Librarian (which is probably the easiest HQ in the Marine codex to just drop into a majority of lists) and doesn't unlock a unique list or provide serious ranged firepower the way a Master of the Forge can. Suffice it to say that paying the premium of having to buy a Chapter Master doesn't charm me. And also consider that an Honor Guard don't get the option to take a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport, and really want for a ride with an Assault Ramp (they don't have the option for, in my mind, the less-than-stellar Shooty Command Squad that can ride in a Razorback just fine). This coupled with the lack of an option for Bikes (or jump packs, more on that later) means that they'll probably require a Heavy Support slot for a ride. The unit you create (Chapter Master with a Relic Blade + X Honor Guard in a Land Raider) is deadly, especially to heavily-armored infantry, and has a tremendous weight of attacks, but you've given up an HQ slot and a Heavy Support slot and a VERY large chunk of points (even at 2000 points) to do it. Finally, you're really tending towards a mono-rock army, and one "Deathstar" unit like this is much easier to manage for an opponent than two (I love my Biker Command Squad, as I'll describe below, but only fielding one has proven to me that redundancy really is king).

 

The second big failing in my mind is indeed the lack of options within the unit. The options an Honor Guard does have are nice (again, I really can appreciate the +1A bubble, though I prefer it on the shoulders of someone who already brings Stubborn, like Pedro, who again creates an entirely different sort of Marines list... not my personal favorite, but viable). But they lack a few modestly important ones: no lightning claws, no storm shields, only one possible Thunder Hammer (honestly, my smallest complaint about the unit... one Thunder Hammer in a rock unit like this is usually quite sufficient), and no Apothecary. But what they really lack, and what can create a monster of a close-combat unit, are Bikes. A Biker Command Squad is scary. I didn't believe it until I tried it for myself: great mobility, strong pre-assault firepower, and the ability to really rip-up just about anything in two rounds of close combat. The two rounds of close-combat part is key, and one area that I feel really distinguishes the Command Squad from the Honor Guard. A Command Squad will have fewer attacks than an equivalent Honor Guard, and the Apothecary can't be given anything better than a chainsword. However, this smaller number of attacks often means that a Command Squad can take two rounds of close combat before they can successfully break an enemy unit, and that's a good thing. They can "hide" for a turn in close-combat and deny the rest of the enemy army a viable target to shoot at, further improving their already impressive durability (2+ is slightly worse, on average, than 3+ with FNP and the Command Squad can get both Bikes and Storm Shields... the only way Honor Guard can become tougher is to take more models, so Command Squads are generally much more survivable).

 

In an all-comers list, I just worry that the Honor Guard's costs (in points, for one, but more critically for me in their Chapter Master requirement) outweigh their offensive threat, especially when their durability is called into question. I don't think they'd have any problem chopping up most heavy infantry, but can't bail you out as well as other Assault specialists in our Codex can against real close-combat monsters. TH/SS Terminators still rule the roost, and Biker armies can bring their own flavor with a Biker Command Squad.

[fredbob524]

Dang, Jackelope King how do you always beat me to the punch, Basically you nailed it on the head, I wish they where good but they have some serious problems:

1. they need a chapter master, chapter masters are a sub par choice in C:SM like captains not on bikes they don't give any army wide, or even unit wide buffs or advantages such as physic defense or foc swaps, Also they are good in combat but not great.

2. the cost of honor guard: clocking in at 5 pts less than th/ss terminators, the gold standard of assault units in fifth edition, they really don't stand up, they only have base power weapons and no invulnerable which really hurts them.

3. I just want to highlight the lack of an invulnerable save: if you want them to be a rock or a scalpel in your army chance are they will come up against the rocks or scalpels of other armies, most of which will have power weapons or rending, or just ignore armor saves like MCs, without invunls these will mess you up pretty bad Jackelope

[Wildfire]

Gah, if only you could put a bike on a chapter master and get a bike-riding unit of honor guard! I'd never use anything else for HQs.

[waaanial00]

It has to be said that there are ways of mitigating the lack of Invulnerable save within the unit by adding the Master with Relic Blade and Storm Shield. This has the potential to hold up those "hidden" powerfists because people are too silly with their placement of them (they get to strike just as well if they are buried in the unit, they shouldnt be at the forefront of it).

 

It is a MASSIVE shame that they dont get an option for an Invulnerable save and something I believe that GW should change if they are going to be including them in the future as a first choice assault unit. In the past it wasnt such a big deal but given that 5th Ed brought more and more horrible combat units with both hitting power and survivability, I feel that they missed a bunch of units off when they started dishing out Invulnerable saves (master of the forge is an obvious second example).

 

Bike riding is nice but I dont think the costing would be as generous as people would want and they would still probably be underused.

 

I will say though that with practice and intelligent use they can be a real force to be reckoned with. Problem is that most are unwilling to take them because TH/SS terminators are just so easy to use that they rarely require any thought at all, they have the survivability that Honour Guard lack in some senarios (man I cant spell today) so people just drift to them.

 

The oft used complaint is also that they specialise in killing infantry in an army which already does that job rather well, though I will attest to the fact that HG do it a damn sight quicker than any other mele option we have. Well maybe a fully tooled Vanguard unit but they are even more expensive.

 

It is more than possible to take this unit in a Rhino/Razorback and profit by it. I appreciate that some people might suggest that it wont do well because that Rhino will be targeted before anything else in the list but thats all about effective deployment and target priority management, something which comes with experience of play and not anything that a statistical analysis of averages can say (thus the reason why it is so easily ignored on forums :))

[greatcrusade08]

all about effective deployment and target priority management, something which comes with experience of play and not anything that a statistical analysis of averages can say (thus the reason why it is so easily ignored on forums :woot:)

 

yeah... mathhammer that ma homies

[DarkGuard]

About the comments on the Chapter Master not being able to take a bike, not everyone wants bike troops in their armies, I certainly don't, and there are no C:SM bike troop armies in my LGS. So, depending on the person this point isn't as big a factor against the Chapter Master. If people don't want bikes, then I'd say it's their choice if they want OB and Honour Guard over other options.

 

Also, you can take Honour Guard while taking a HQ choice with army wide abilities, in fact there are two of them. Marneus Calgar means that you get to choose whether you want to pass or fail your moral tests and he is a killing machine, though expensive, while Pedro Kantor, while weaker in combat is more modestly costed, gives army wide Stubborn, allows Sternguard as scoring, and as a couple of people have ecstatically told me at my LGS, gives a +1 attack bubble, though I'm not sure if it stacks with the Chapter Banner. If it does, then awesome, if it doesn't, then you've saved points or have redundancy, or have a wider radius.

 

Yes Honour Guard are less survivable in CC than TH/SS Termys, but they can get cheaper transport, though I'd agree that the LR is preferred, just no essential, and they do strike faster than Termys. They are a scalpel, the very highest of what Space Marine combat should be, and are effectively a bully unit, use them as such.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

yeah i second disliking bikers. I think its a silly concept and actually they SHOULD suck in CC thinking about it. I could understand like trample damage or something, but surely driving into a huge mob of enemies should cause a dangerous terrain test or something? And swinging a 2 handed sword on a bike seems pretty silly.

 

But overall I think that you make out the biker captain brings some kind of major buff to the army. He doesn't though really, he just lets bikers become troops and a biker command squad. That's it.

 

Also the chapter master upgrade should net you more than the OB, but at 25 points for a massive explosion (which should be able to be used on the go really) ain't too bad, nor are honour guard really. Perhaps try matching up honour guard and command squads with a similar point value against various targets and see how it goes.... results could be interesting..

[DarkGuard]

Also the chapter master upgrade should net you more than the OB, but at 25 points for a massive explosion (which should be able to be used on the go really) ain't too bad, nor are honour guard really. Perhaps try matching up honour guard and command squads with a similar point value against various targets and see how it goes.... results could be interesting..

 

Actually this is a good point, why is everyone comparing Honour Guard to TH/SS Terminators. Looking at other threads I think most of us are in agreement that TH/SS Terminators are an excellent niche unit, designed to bring down the very elite combat troops and MCs. Honour Guard are something completely different, a unit that is more designed against the majority of enemy infantry. The title of the thread is 'Honor Guard vs Command Squad vs. Vanguard', not 'Honour Guard vs TH/SS Terminators'. These units do different things, and I'd agree with saying, 'choose TH/SS Terminators' if everyone started equipped their Command Squads and Vanguard with thunder hammer and storm shields. But this is about a unit that does different things to TH/SS Terminators, and about how it compares to other units in this niche.

[confused_gordy]

Just a quick note on honour guard vs command squads:

 

 

 

Save comparison:

 

Honour Guard have a 2+ save vs command squads have a feel no pain save and a 3+ save.

 

A 2+ save saves twice as many times as a 3+ save, but half of all failed saves are mitigated by the 4+ feel no pain.

 

This makes the command squad and the honour guard exactly as survivable.

 

 

 

What mitigates the saves?:

 

Command squads loose their 3+ save against ap3 weapons, honour guard do not. This makes honour guard more survivable.

Command squads loose their feel no pain vs strength 8+ weapons, honour guard do not. This makes honour guard more survivable.

It is possible for the apothecary to die early, making the feel no pain not dependable. This makes honour guard more survivable.

 

Both squads loose their saves vs ap2 and one weapons, however command squads can purchase storm shields...

 

 

 

Storm shields:

 

A command squad model with a storm shield costs the same points as an honour guard model. With this you gain greater survivability vs weapons which ignore armour saves, and ap2 weapons. (against which you survive 2/3 times longer).

However against such weapons you also loose your feel no pain which you have already paid for.

The honour guard are still more survivable against high strength poor ap weaponry (although there isn't much of this)

 

So once we have storm shields in survivability terms, the command squad is now winning.

At this point the command squad costs 175, which can be compared to a 5 man honour guard squad at just 10 points more.

 

 

Base Killing potential:

 

So we have command squads which have, a bolter OR bolt pistol, and a close combat weapon. Which means as far as shooting is concerned, at a base value they don't get as many toys as a tactical marine. We will assume that bolters are not used, in order to take advantage of the 2A characteristic. with some storm shields, we are paying for a durable 5 wound unit, with about the same cost, and killing potential of a tactical squad (note we dont get free heavy and special weapons)

 

VS

 

The honour guard have, a bolt pistol, a bolter, and a power weapon! If the command squad have chosen bolt pistols and close combat weapons, then the honour guard is already better at shooting. Close combat potential shows the honour guard ignore armour saves, and have a WS5 attacker, and 1 more attack on their champions profile.

 

 

 

Initial analysis:

 

At the sub 200pt mark, the command squad has greater durability, but cant really hurt anything worth hurting, the honour guard has good durability, but can mash face.

 

 

 

Ranged Upgrades:

 

The command squad can buy effective ranged weaponry at between 5 and 15 pts. this makes them very effective at shooting, and dangerous to the enemy. It also makes them cost between 200 and 225 pts (depending on weapon choices). All of this shooting is at close to medium ranges, and costs them their 2 close combat weapon attacks. making the unit very fragile in assault.

 

The honour guard can buy auxiliary grenade launchers at the same cost as a plasma gun, which are not as effective at killing things as the command squads weaponry however, they can be fired in addition to the bolters/bolt pistols, to make for a formidable hail of fire (they are also not dangerous to the user), with this configuration the honour guard are still fractionally more expensive at 235 pts, but have gained a fraction more durability (in close combat and at ranged with over heats), and still are far more dangerous in close combat, however at range the command squad are now a more threatening foe.

 

 

 

Close Combat upgrades:

 

Assuming we are still using storm shields, but have opted to not upgrade ranged weaponry, 4 of the command squad can upgrade their CC gear. They can spend between 15 and 30 pts per bloke to be more killy. we will assume they require at least one thunder hammer/power fist, and that they want lightening claws (as these provide slightly higher damage than power weapons). the command squad now costs 245 pts. It generates 6 lightening claw attacks, 3 normal attacks, and 2 power fist attacks per turn (not accounting for charges etc).

 

The honour guard squad, initially generates 12 power weapon attacks, and either an aditional 4 ws 5 power weapon attacks or and aditional 3 ws5 thunder hammer attacks. making a base honourguard squad significantly more dangerous than a 60pt more command squad. The honourguard can make up this points difference with a chapter banner (adding either 5 more power weapon attacks, or 4 more power weapon attacks and a thunder hammer attack), and an additional 2 relic blades, which give the option of giving up 8 power weapon attacks for 6 st6 power weapon attacks. Alternatively the honourguard could buy another member, adding an extra wound, more shooting, and 4 power weapon attacks. The honour guard now costs 240 pts.

 

Spending the same amount, the honour guard is significantly more dangerous, and potentially more durable with an additional member.

 

 

 

Killhammer S : (I know Ive not mentioned kill hammer until now, but assume that I've been speaking in terms of K and D up to now, as I think warp angel is onto something and would love the opportunity to have a game with him some time)

 

Both units have transports available, however the command squad has the unique advantage of gaining the option of bikes, meaning additional movement, and an increase in durability. this would cost a significant amount of points however, and for almost the same price the honour guard can acquire an additional 2 members and a rhino.

 

Chapter master vs captain goes into S, an army must have these models to include the squads mentioned, with the chapter master being considered the worse choice. Inside the units, the characters receive different benefits that should be considered. A command squad makes the captain more survivable against low threat wounds as it provides feel no pain. The honour guard provide additional damage with +1 attack. the captain majorly buffs the CC threat of the command squad, where as the chapter master only marginally increases the threat of the honour guard. however he instead adds durability in the form of a storm shield.

 

Here is a big issue for the two squads, in close combat... a command squad relies on its captain, an honour guard with its chapter master are overkill. A shooting command squad wastes an attached captain, yet needs a CC defence, and so relies on him being around. The honour guard and the chapter master are more capable of acting apart from one another, and therefore can generate more threat.

 

In conclusion, the S of each squad is different, but overall it could be argued that the honour guard has greater flexibility than the command squad.

 

 

 

Summary:

 

The command squad will regularly cost more points than an honour guard.

The command squad will regularly be more durable than an honour guard.

The command squad has to choose to be shooty or assaulty, if it is shooty, it becomes very susceptible to assaults.

The command squad relies on its hero

 

The honour guard is reliably more dangerous in close combat.

The honour guard can generally be cheaper than the command squad and still be effective.

 

 

 

PS:

Unfortunately for close combat, both fall short of assault terminators, and for shooting both fall short of stern guard.

[waaanial00]

A 2+ save saves twice as many times as a 3+ save

 

Not that I actually enjoy mathammer but this statement is a little wrong. How can 1/6 of an improvement account for half of all eventualities?

 

2/3 vs 5/6 is not twice as big

 

Command squads loose their feel no pain vs strength 8+ weapons, honour guard do not. This makes honour guard more survivable.

 

HG not having FNP is the point here, you are right in that this makes honour guard more survivable but you are not factoring in what the AP of the weapon is. Might be that the S8 AP2 weapon is killing both, or the S8 AP3 is savable by the honour guard alone. Be careful of making things sound much better than they are.

[confused_gordy]

a 3+ save fails on a 1 and a 2.

 

a 2+ save fails on a 1.

 

a 3+ save fails twice as much

 

It is true that 5/6 is not twice 4/6, however it is true that a 2+ save is twice the effectiveness of a 3+. And as the purpose of armour saves I guess it not passing armour saves, but avoiding failing, they can definitely be assessed as being twice as effective. (although I accept that my wording was not perfect).

 

 

Also it should be noted I mention ap2 later on, and as ap2 also mitigates feel no pain, its an even score.

the st8 mitigation is just a slight plus that 2+ saves have over 3+ saves and feel no pain.

[waaanial00]

a 3+ save fails twice as much

 

It is true that 5/6 is not twice 4/6, however it is true that a 5/6 chance to pass a save does occur twice as many times as a 4/6 chance of passing those saves.

 

Top bit is accurate however it doesnt mean they save twice as many.

 

Do it with 10 attempts

 

3+

 

Saves 6.666

Fails 3.333

 

2+

 

Saves 8.333

Fails 1.6666

 

Now 1.6 is half of 3.3

 

But 8.3 is not twice 6.6

 

So it fails twice as much but doesnt save you twice as much, though you could argue that it does so by failing 50% less. However thats not what you said initially.

[confused_gordy]

your right, I thought about it a bit more and edited before the reply (so this little conversation will look a little weird).

 

Analysis still I feel is quite accurate, with the only real good points of the command squad being storm shields, and that these become less of an issue as the command squad has to spend so many points to be a dangerous unit.

[Jackelope King]

all about effective deployment and target priority management, something which comes with experience of play and not anything that a statistical analysis of averages can say (thus the reason why it is so easily ignored on forums :))

Of course. There is no such thing as a "point-and-click" army that the Inter-Tubes are whining about. But assuming equal skill at deployment, movement, target priority, and threat mitigation between the generals (and no bane from the dice gods), the stronger army will in. In analysis of a game with an internal engine based so strongly on probability, to discount these numbers completely would be folly. They're a useful starting-point in any analysis.

 

yeah i second disliking bikers. I think its a silly concept and actually they SHOULD suck in CC thinking about it. I could understand like trample damage or something, but surely driving into a huge mob of enemies should cause a dangerous terrain test or something? And swinging a 2 handed sword on a bike seems pretty silly.

 

But overall I think that you make out the biker captain brings some kind of major buff to the army. He doesn't though really, he just lets bikers become troops and a biker command squad. That's it.

No, not every army wants bikes for troops. That's fine. However, it is the strongest role that a Captain can take in the army (not relying on a Land Raider to deliver WS6 I5 Relic Blade killiness is quite nice). A Captain or Khan on a bike are the only ways in the Codex to unlock a Biker army, something that is still unique to Codex: Space Marines, and is quite effective (if very dependent on managing the movement phase for success). Otherwise, I think other choices tend to shine better for a foot-HQ or HQ who joins another unit to mech up in most other Marines lists (in my experience, it's usually the out-and-out utility of the Librarian).

 

And seriously, don't discount the significant advantages of T4(5) in close combat. That two-turn rout in an assault with usually zero or one wounds is very nice.

 

confused_gordy: Your analysis strikes me as a little off, particularly your conclusions that a Chapter Master is self-sufficient enough to act away from the Honor Guard while the Captain needs to stay with his Command Squad, because he can't handle himself as well as the Chapter Master can. I might have this backwards, though. Care to clarify?

[waaanial00]

But assuming equal skill at deployment, movement, target priority, and threat mitigation between the generals (and no bane from the dice gods), the stronger army will win. In analysis of a game with an internal engine based so strongly on probability, to discount these numbers completely would be folly. They're a useful starting-point in any analysis.

 

<Lots of words removed later>

 

For me it is a starting point only, it just seems that others dont make this clear when analysing things. There is more in a game than what should happen. After all I could roll 10 dice and get 10 1's, statistics be damned but that can happen.

 

Once got accused of having a loaded scatter dice because it rolled hit 5 times in a row, it wasnt loaded but the damn thing would let me prove it!

[confused_gordy]

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

 

Its not that the captain is less self sufficient than the chapter master. Its that the honour guard are more self sufficient than that command squad.

 

As an honour guard puts out a massive ammount of attack potential, a chapter master is gravy for them, and so he isn't needed and can help somewhere else.

 

where as a command squad are considerably less dangerous, and when performing an assault role, require a captain to be a substantial threat.

[Jackelope King]

waaanial00, it's not necessarily averages that you expect, but being able to predict likely outcomes from actions.

 

For instance, the volley of bad shooting you describe, the outcome you got probably wasn't expected, right? In most scenarios, you would have assumed to have achieved an Immobilized result with far fewer shots. Strict averages are not the ideal for this kind of analysis. Rather, being able to predict what the range of likely outcomes you'll see is what you want. The outcome you got with all that firepower is probably way down on the far end of the tail of the curve, a very unlikely outcome. For instance, firing one Rifleman Dreadnought at a Chimera. Any given shell that hits has a 17% chance of stopping the Chimera (scoring a Wrecked, Explodes, Immobilized or Stunned result), and has an 83% chance of having no effect. If two shells hit, the probability of the vehicle being stopped (as defined above) increases to 31%. Three shells increase the odds to 43%. Four increase the odds to 53%. Accounting for the accuracy of the Rifleman, I'd expect about a 50-50 chance that I'd stop the Chimera for the turn. However, if I have two Riflemen that can shoot, I have more shells that could hit. Five shells increases the odds to 61%. Six shells boosts it to 68%. Seven shells to 73%. If all eight shells hit, I have a 78% chance of stopping the Chimera. So again accounting for the accuracy of the Rifleman, I'd give myself about a 69.3% chance of success at achieving the outcome of stopping the Chimera (even if only for one turn).

 

Does that mean that on this particular turn, the Dice are going to agree with analysis of probability? Nope. I don't think there's one player on this forum who can't tell you about all the bad beats he's had when the dice just refused to cooperate, even with all the probability in the world on his side. But that's the best tool I have at my disposal to assess the outcomes of a particular action I take in-game. It'd be foolhardy of me to spray Bolter fire at the front armor of the Chimera and expect anything to happen, which is the extreme I certainly don't expect of you, but it illustrates that we have to give the math behind the game some thought if we're to enjoy any success. We know that, according to the math behind the game, that a S4 bolter cannot glance or penetrate the front armor of an AV12 vehicle, requiring a result of 8 on a d6.

 

And the math actually is good for analyzing the situation in front of you, once the intangibles of position, maneuvering, supporting units, and all of those other, critical elements are accounted for in the game on the table. Use it to analyze outcomes, and as part of your threat-analysis and target-priority.

[thade]

all about effective deployment and target priority management, something which comes with experience of play and not anything that a statistical analysis of averages can say (thus the reason why it is so easily ignored on forums :evil:)

 

yeah... mathhammer that ma homies

 

Holy quotable, Batman!!

 

Everybody knows my stance on this, I think, but just to recap: I'm intrigued by HG but I don't use them for the same reason I don't use a melee Command Squad: lack of wound-soaking bodies. If I want mighty melee in PA I go Vanguard because I can bring non-upgraded marines or marines with 3+ invulns and nothing else to risk when they take their saves, thoroughly protecting the models with the upgrades. Where a flying Vanguard is very situational, an HG is extremely situational. They're bad against a unit with a power fist. They would excel versus a unit with no power weapons at all. Consider the following scenario. Telion caps the Power Klaw out of a unit of boyz and the HG charges in. The HG is going to tear those boys apart with even only a little assistance (say, charge a Tac squad in there with them for some extra bodies and punches). If the unit has an IC in there, you can use HG shenanigans against it. If there's a Walker or power weapons on your Opponent's side, the HG will do poorly. The HG is not designed to go head-to-head with another melee-centric force. They are designed to quickly decimate shooty-centric units. Imagine how fast your Sternguard would go down to even three charging HG guys.

 

I'd play them, if I still used the vanilla codex, but only to see how they feel with the rest of my force.

[Captain Idaho]

There are so many different posts I'm not going to be able to reply to all of them in one go, so instead I will just address the generic points that seem to be coming up. Many people been quite eloquent on the subject so have covered many points regarding Honour Guard.

 

Honour Guard Costs

 

I actually agree with what Jackelope King about the biggest drawback, of sorts. The biggest drawback is the Master to the cost on Honour Guard, as he clocks up an impressive 170pts for just a Relic Blade and Storm Shield. If given the option I would probably drop the Orbital Bombardment, truth be told.

 

But having said that it isn’t a handicap really. What the Orbital Bombardment does do is force opponents to spread out lest they take a big old pie template to the chops. Most opponents forget about it, and then lose a vehicle or find it can’t shoot or whatever. In a standard, Melta/flamer Marine net-list it doesn't seem to have a place but if you have an army with respectable long range firepower it complements things nicely.

 

The other reason it isn’t a handicap taking a Master is his role in a unit of Honour Guard is to do with his characteristics. He has 2 stats that far out weigh that of a Librarian, and that is his initiative and his wound score. The Master protects the unit by taking as many hits as you can put on him, even lowly bolter shots (the amount of ones I roll…). Put him into base contact with the hidden power weapons and take the hits. He can afford to take a couple wounds and still be a force to worry about.

 

Likewise, his higher initiative means the extra attack he gains from the Chapter Banner means he can cull opposing units which might strike simultaneously with the Honour Guard, further reducing threat to the unit.

 

As for the unit, they actually aren’t that expensive. A 5 man unit with Relic Blade and Chapter Banner actually clocks in at 225pts, which is only 25pts more expensive than their main rivals, the Terminator Storm Shield brigade. However, that 25pts is worth its weight in gold! It boosts the Master and makes the Champion a nasty piece of work! The Champion now has 5 S6 attacks on the charge at WS5! Essentially you now have 2 Masters in the unit. If such a banner could be taken in any other assault unit then I am pretty sure everyone would (imagine Terminators with that extra attack!).

 

 

Tranportation issues

 

There is some debate whether you can operate an assault unit from a Rhino and some people can’t accept using them over a Landraider. That really is a different debate but I will touch on it here.

 

A Rhino is a still an armoured vehicle, therefore you have to dedicate anti-tank at it to really stand a chance of cracking it open. With the benefits of cover and using other armoured vehicles as a shield you can extend the life of your assault unit’s ride long enough to close the distance with opponents.

 

It's easily done really.

 

 

My philosophy

 

It’s essentially a case of how you build a list to play the game. Many Space Marine players, as waaanial00 mentioned, default to the Assault Terminator side of things because they are easy to use as their application is obvious especially whilst the rest of the list is so easy to build around anti-infantry.

 

However I play with a different philosophy. I recognise that Tactical Marines are already reasonable at killing infantry and most people emphasise this with additional weapons that support them in this role. But a Space Marine list also struggles to fit in many weapons that threaten the targets that in turn are the biggest threat to our units. Many people use Assault Terminators to fulfill this gap.

 

I go the other way; I add plasma guns and melta guns to my Tacticals as well as Lascannons and the like to increase my overall firepower available, and also some anti-tank weapons to my supporting units/vehicles. This maximises my ranged punch.

 

I also try and keep my army as versatile as possible, with most units able to achieve multiple roles. This shores up the weakness that Space Marines are expensive and building redundancy is not easy to do. Typhoons and Dreadnoughts with a single Heavy weapon and DCCW mimic the Tacticals in this capacity.

 

The list now has strong enough firepower to target MCs and the like so the role of Storm Shield Terminators is redundant somewhat. Now the obvious shortfall of a list built like this is the army is only average at killing infantry. This is now compensated by adding Honour Guard into the list, who tick the box for killing infantry and heavy infantry with a red pen!

 

They can also perform other roles, as the 10 Relic Blade attacks hurt vehicles in assaults (got to love AV10 rear armour!) as well as the rest of the squad, whilst they are pretty survivable using the “trick” of applying wounds to the Master and his effect in assaults. The only time they are not survivable is when the right weapons are used against them, and guess what I’m gona say now, that is the same for every unit in the game! If Storm Shield Terminators don’t like taking on a mob of Ork boyz then you try not to do that, so if Honour Guard don’t like taking on a Blood Thirster you try not to do that with them!

 

So what I am saying here is I use my army slightly differently to get the same results as other Space Marine players. Nothing ground breaking, just one more suitable to my style.

 

Oh yeah, Honour Guard also do not take up a force selection slot, which frees up the already crowded Elites section of the Codex…

 

Sorry that's a little all over the place and unfocused, but I just finished work and am looking after my son (he's watching Octonauts so have at least got a little freedom to write this!). I fully intend to write a fully tactica for them one day, but if there is anything you would like me to elaborate on then just ask. :P

[Brother Captain Ed]

Lots of good insights here.

 

Captain Idaho.... If I may ask, your play style sounds similiar to mine if I am reading your post correctly, yet I think your experiece has provided more insight on how to plan for it. So for my curiousity and the benefit of the folks debating the usefulness of the HG could you post your army list (or the template you'd start with anyway) at 1500 and 2000? I was originally just curious about melee rocks running with your HQ, but now you've peaked my interest in seeing how to fit into the type of army you've described.

[fredbob524]

@Captain Idaho how do you honor guard deal with people whose close cambat units ignore armour saves, like every good close combat unit