Honor Guard vs Command Squad vs. Vanguard

[waaanial00]

Captain Idaho.... could you post your army list (or the template you'd start with anyway) at 1500 and 2000?

 

Have a look at the entire mega thread of his lists evolution here, ive played him a couple of times and he is a very decent player.

[Zynk Kaladin]

@Captain Idaho how do you honor guard deal with people whose close cambat units ignore armour saves, like every good close combat unit

 

I think he said this already, but he ignores their dedicated CC specialists, like people do with hammernators, and goes strait for the weaker troop choices where they actually benefit from an armor save and their sheer number of attacks perform well. One problem with this is if the HG totally clear out a squad of troop choices they're wide open. However, nothing save AP2 and volume of fire is going to damage them.

 

From what I can tell, the main reason hammernators are preferred over HG is the threat factor with durability. In the event that fecal matter contacts the rotation foil, hammernators can weather crap tons more attacks then HG effectively wasting your opponents shots trying to bring them down. HG can't take the heat when you're stuck in an not-so-ideal position which is bound to happen if playing against a worthy opponent.

 

I see HG as the ultimate fire type unit in CSM. They can dish out numerous relic blade and power weapon attacks, but are very fragile. One bad move could be disastrous, but the potential returns of a good game could be worth it. I believe any unit in CSM can perform wonderfully if it synergises well with its entire army and battle plan.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Anyone considered something like Pedro Kantor with TH/SS termies AND honour guard working nearby? Seems like a pretty evil melee force....if few in number.

 

Though 1 question, is it feasible to take Calgars 3 HG squads, even if they were smaller?

[Zynk Kaladin]

Anyone considered something like Pedro Kantor with TH/SS termies AND honour guard working nearby? Seems like a pretty evil melee force....if few in number.

 

The price tag makes me cringe.

 

Though 1 question, is it feasible to take Calgars 3 HG squads, even if they were smaller?

 

I couldn't see why not. You could take one 4 man squad with the chapter banner and relic blade champion and 2 other 3 man relic blade champion squads. Then put them all in 3 razorbacks. How this setup will perform is beyond me and is making me quite curious. The small squads would work well with Calgars auto pass or fail morale check ability.

[Captain Idaho]

Captain Idaho.... If I may ask, your play style sounds similiar to mine if I am reading your post correctly, yet I think your experiece has provided more insight on how to plan for it. So for my curiousity and the benefit of the folks debating the usefulness of the HG could you post your army list (or the template you'd start with anyway) at 1500 and 2000? I was originally just curious about melee rocks running with your HQ, but now you've peaked my interest in seeing how to fit into the type of army you've described.

 

I usually use 1,500pts.

 

I orignally used the unit and struggled to put a list around them, but after taking plenty of casualities from my friends Chaos Marines armies in 3.5 edition you learn the hard way how to be competetive.

 

Given 5th edition rule changes and the latest Codex, I evolved to create a bunch of elements I wanted in my list whilst still maintaining an effective close assault force of Honour Guard. It helps if you do something like the following:

 

• Durability: Given the high damage output of many armies I found I needed models on the board and that meant taking enough Tactical Marines to fulfill my aims. Considering the way I use my army, my Tacticals often were finding themselve in a meat grinder with opposition, as I use them to support attacks/defences from specialists in my army. Rhino bunkers can be useful here.
  
• Mobility: You need to get across the table some times, either to take or contest that objective or sometimes to just smash face. This means affordable transports, as the more I have the more I have to invest on transports and the less points I have to spend elsewhere. Fast attack choices help here also, but are less of a priority when points costs limitations means I may have to let something drop.
  
• Firepower: Specifically I want the ability to reach out and touch people from a distance and since 40K generally has units hiding away in transports, anti-tank is often the order of the day. Of course all firepower is welcome!
  
• Assault capacity: I want to be able to fight it out eye to eye if I need to, as you can't always avoid those nasty pieces of work from getting close to you. It's also nice when you're getting out shot to be able to have the option to change tack and assault opponents if needed.
  

So how do you deal with these needs when building a list with Space Marines? Difficult really, as points costs can be extortionate. Most players choose to optimise down one or two aspects of play in this case. I went with versatility so I could cover several aspects of my aims in building a list.

 

To this end, my Tacticals are equipped with as many special weapons that increased my firepower as possible, as they are already capable of handling themselves against infantry. They are given transports to increase durability and mobility, and Dreads to enhance my army's firepower and grant support to the Tacticals with their assault potential. I had to have some Typhoons, as they are the best unit in the army for versatility! A pair of the blighters are the ticket here.

 

Soooo, into I have most options covered though really don't have a killer punch, a spear tip attack to be able to take the fight to the enemy. I need to take objectives off opponents and cut down enemy infantry holding ground. That something needs to be tough enough to take the enemy with them after losing a few casualities, as some units lose efficiency when this happens (Assault Terminators particularly). So what fits into this gap...?

 

;)

 

@Captain Idaho how do you honor guard deal with people whose close cambat units ignore armour saves, like every good close combat unit

 

Elementary my dear fredbob524! I don't charge units that are particularly nasty in assaults and shoot them to death where possible. I also use my Dreads to tie them up or even just slow them down. With regards to hidden power weapons, I try and put my Master in base contact with such models, though this is easier to do with non-hoard units that can't place their models at the rear of the unit and out of reach.

 

The beauty of the Chapter Banner and the amount of attacks each model gets is that after you take a few losses in the unit they are still dangerous, particularly if you still have the Master and Champion still kicking. So in a close fought battle, where both sides are taking a mauling, the Honour Guard are still capable of taking on units and killing them or at least crippling them.

 

It's bascially a case of shooting the assault stuff!

 

Don't forget, if you lose the Honour Guard only causing a few losses, due to a combined counter charge or whatever, then you still can have an advantage as you might have delayed an attack or whatever.

 

One last thing, many thanks for support from people in this thread. :P

[fredbob524]

But there counter charge from a very possibly cheaper bit better in cc unit will kill you one you get off one charge, and since you ride in a rhino it has to be parked fo a turn for you to get the charge, just increasing the likely hood of them being killed

[DAwarrior43]

But there counter charge from a very possibly cheaper bit better in cc unit will kill you one you get off one charge, and since you ride in a rhino it has to be parked fo a turn for you to get the charge, just increasing the likely hood of them being killed

 

It's simply as he said before, trying to weaken the other CC squad that is approaching, he won't put his HG in a place where they will be vulnerable to that attack you speak of. And I'm assuming that this squad isn't acting alone, from what I have read of his lists is everything works together, you won't simply be facing only the HG making this the rock, paper, scissors game your making it sound like. He also screens his rhinos very effectively meaning they will not be out of them until he needs to charge or it has been destroyed and think about this, if it is just wrecked, he will deploy behind the rhino saving him from most shooting and a deterrent to being assaulted.

[Captain Idaho]

Which cheaper and better close combat unit? Howling Banshees can threaten Honour Guard and can be cheaper?

 

My Honour Guard don't operate in a vaccuum, so ideally if they remove an enemy unit then they are supported somehow.

 

And it is the same principle with Terminators. Why wouldn't they be just as vulnerable from a counter charge as Honour Guard?

[fredbob524]

@Captain Idaho if you are paying for a chapter mast along with them even th/ss termies in a land raider come close in cost, not under but close, or how about sanguinary guard, or stealer, or thunderwolf cavalry, need I go on.

 

@DAwarrior43 they have a 14.9... inch assault range coming out a rhino that could not move before hand this turn, either i stay outta that range or I brng enough force to destroy them

[DAwarrior43]

But than you are dedicating a whole lot of your force on a single unit, what do you think the rest of his units are doing this whole time? If you stay out of range he opens up on you with the rest of his army and if you move in he has a solid counter charge in the HG. What is your force that you would bring to destroy them?

 

We can talk all we want on the interweb, but you would need to see the way they are used to fully understand how he makes them a viable part of his army

 

edit: poor grammar

[Captain Juan Juarez]

...either I stay out of that range or I bring enough force to destroy them.

 

If you do either then that brings a sizeable change to your own force or battle plan, one drawn by a single unit.. WHich means that they have already been worth their points.

 

Even the threat of the unit is useful, causing changes such as you mentioned, even if the never "earn their points" back.

[DAwarrior43]

...either I stay out of that range or I bring enough force to destroy them.

 

If you do either then that brings a sizeable change to your own force or battle plan, one drawn by a single unit.. WHich means that they have already been worth their points.

 

Even the threat of the unit is useful, causing changes such as you mentioned, even if the never "earn their points" back.

 

Gotta love posting the same thing at the same time

[Brother Captain Ed]

Captain Idaho.... could you post your army list (or the template you'd start with anyway) at 1500 and 2000?

 

Have a look at the entire mega thread of his lists evolution here, ive played him a couple of times and he is a very decent player.

 

Ah. Thank you. I shall try to digest it.

 

 

@Captain Idaho: Thanks for the feedback. I shall endeavor to pair your intent to the link listed above and hopefully be wiser for the experience.

 

 

@fredbob524: I don't think you're listening, man. Don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced HG are the bee's knees or anything either. But Idaho and others are saying that they are not designed to fight your CC monsters. Granted, your opponent won't always be able to put his HG exactly where he wants it, but neither will you always have the right units in the right position to annihilate them every time. Idaho's point is that he is NOT using them like terminators, but rather he is building lists where he doesn't use his units in that role. I am concerned he might just have an equation here that works only (or simply best) for him and not for those of us outside his brain where we cannot draw on his organic tactical computer.

 

So, given that the HG aren't meant to be termies or command squad deathstars, I am willing to learn and see what makes this point of view tick, and I thank everyone for helping to to better understand it (for better or worse).

[fredbob524]

@Brother Captain Ed if theyare not meant to be your close combat rock in an army why are you spending so much on them and kitting them out for cc

[Malthe]

@Captain Idaho if you are paying for a chapter mast along with them even th/ss termies in a land raider come close in cost, not under but close...

 

Actually no. Let do the math for you all:

 

A Land Raider with terminators will cost a

minimum of 450 points.

 

An Honour Guard squad with a rhino will be about 260.

Then you add the chapter master with rb/ss, which is 170.

That's 430 in total.

 

Now you have a difference of 20 points.

But it's not a fair comparison!

For this problem to make sense you need to add the cost of the unoptionable HQ the terminators require (the honour guard already have that covered with the chapter master).

 

Asuming you choose to spend the bare minimum on a HQ your equation should look like this:

 

Honour Guard 225 + rhino 35 + chapter master (HQ) 170 = 430

 

compared to:

 

Terminators 200 + Land Raider 250 + Barebones HQ 100 = 550

 

Now that's a difference of 120 points, in favour of the honour guard.

[Brother Captain Ed]

@Brother Captain Ed if theyare not meant to be your close combat rock in an army why are you spending so much on them and kitting them out for cc

 

I think it might be a matter of semantics. HG aren't a rock. They lack the survivability (i.e. an invul save) to be the dudes that get out there, soak up bullets, and get in close combat with monsters. I think Idaho is advocating them as more of a scalpel than a rock. They are there to try and hit anything and everything that can't really hurt them back (which is pretty much everything BUT your enemies dedicated CC monsters).

 

It sounds to me like it's the incarnate example of shoot the assaulty stuff and assault the shooty stuff. HG only want to fight specific parts of your army.

 

Now, that said, TH/SS Termies just don't care. They'll fight pretty much anything at anytime if they have to.

 

I'm not sure either is better or worse. But certainly different, at any rate.

[DAwarrior43]

I think it might be a matter of semantics. HG aren't a rock. They lack the survivability (i.e. an invul save) to be the dudes that get out there, soak up bullets, and get in close combat with monsters. I think Idaho is advocating them as more of a scalpel than a rock. They are there to try and hit anything and everything that can't really hurt them back (which is pretty much everything BUT your enemies dedicated CC monsters).

 

@Fredbob524: Why can't you understand this quote? No one on here has said they are the close combat monster that will stomp anything and everything into the ground. They are meant to be used in situations where the calculated risk is low and they can take out units that have been gimped by previous shooting. While they may be slightly expensive as a unit, they don't need the 250 pt transport to make them effective which terminators usually rely on. I'm not sure why you contiune to bash people's choices for a method that has been proven to work for them.

[greatcrusade08]

anyone who thinks you can load up on LR and TH/SS termies and 'bash' your way across the board has no idea how tatcics and stretegy work... and will get owned by any competant player

[Shadowstalker Grim]

If I saw a LR which had a deathstar unit such as TH/SS termies rolling toward me, I don't think i'd neccessarily care much. I mean sure its pretty scary and what not, but it means that i'm seeing most of the enemy army and whatever its going to hit will probably not be such a big part of my army and it sort of begs to have firepower directed at it. If i can ignore them, then i'll just turn my fire to other weak elements.

 

I dunno, I think i'd fear numerous elements more because it means more work to whittle down the dangerous and vital elements and i'd probably take a beating doing so!

[Meatman]

The amount of fast melta around, especially in marine lists normally ensures that land raider goes boom very quickly. That's why I try to avoid expensive units, as I would rather not stick my eggs in one basket.

 

 

I don't usually use either of the 3 units the topic talks about, preferring the cheaper assault marine squad, but I would choose biker command squads or a cheap vanguard squad with packs because of the mobility without needing a transport. Mech is king in 5th Ed, so a uber squad in a transport is going to be grounded quickly against savvy opponents.

[Captain Idaho]

@Captain Idaho: Thanks for the feedback. I shall endeavor to pair your intent to the link listed above and hopefully be wiser for the experience.

 

It worked largely from trial and error but also from necessity. Some games you just have to charge them in less than ideal circumstances because you were caught out either in positioning or manoeuvring. Then you learn how to avoid that happening again etc.

 

They are a hard unit to use, especially if you don’t have the patient mind set. You kind of have to play like the Iron Warriors; content to allow Laser and shell to do the work for you but when the opportunity arises you need to be ruthless with the application of your Honour Guard.

 

@Captain Idaho if you are paying for a chapter mast along with them even th/ss termies in a land raider come close in cost, not under but close...

 

Malthe said things concisely but I will ramble on in my usual way as a response in support.

 

I have gone over the costs before in lengthy debates, but paying for the Master is not the handicap it might overwise seem to be. Firstly, you have to have an HQ choice. Period. So even if you take a separate HQ like a Librarian and put him elsewhere and run the Assault Terminators solo in their Landraider, you still have to take that Librarian.

 

Secondly, a Master is a lot harder than a Librarian ever will be (in this edition of course) and therefore is appropriately costed.

 

So if we take the Librarian cost from the Master I described, at a base minimum (bear in mind most people upgrade Librarians to be in Terminator armour with Storm Shields which is even more expensive) the difference is 70pts.

 

The Idaho pattern Honour Guard difference between Terminators is 25pts (in favour of the Terminators), which is a combined increase in cost of +95pts. So far the Honour Guard are substantially more of an investment, not taking into account the Master is a lot more destructive in assaults (generally).

 

But then we move to transports. Honour Guard get a Rhino at 35pts, whilst Landraiders are the only transport option for Terminators. That is a massive difference of 215pts (not including most players upgrade their Landraiders with MM etc, let’s talk base costs).

 

Combined that is an overall difference of 120pts in favour of the Honour Guard. But then we have more!

 

The Librarian has to find a unit to go with in the battle. Are you going to put him with the Terminators for an all eggs in one basket approach? If not then you are going to have to pay points for another escort for him!

 

Are you going to upgrade your Librarian to have a 3+ invulnerable save? What if you take Vulkan who is more expensive than the Master? What if you want your Master to just have a power weapon for 140pts? Those things increase the points difference between the 2 units more in favour of Honour Guard.

 

Wait! Now we have a completely different approach to the game! That Landraider assault needs to be central to your plans as you have invested a lot into it. Your other units are going to have play in a manner that supports your expensive Landraider or else you leave it isolated. That isn’t a bad thing, but it is a distinct manner of playing you can’t do anything about.

 

Hopefully the past few posts of mine illustrates the way I approach the game and explains how I fit the Honour Guard into the list. Bear in mind I’m not saying that the above examples are poorer in comparison, rather that they are when it comes to my game.

 

Hell, this last quote shows exactly why we all have our opinions:

 

I don't usually use either of the 3 units the topic talks about, preferring the cheaper assault marine squad, but I would choose biker command squads or a cheap vanguard squad with packs because of the mobility without needing a transport. Mech is king in 5th Ed, so a uber squad in a transport is going to be grounded quickly against savvy opponents.

 

This is great as it's another perspective and why I love 40K! Not everyone likes using the same combinations of things as they either bore them or they just plum find it doesn't work for them. Meatman probably doesn't like the way you might have to sacrifice other armoured units to get the Honour Guard into assault (I've even deliberately not blown smoke or put a vehicle or squadron in a weakened position to tempt players into ignoring my Honour Guard's transport). It isn't something he probably accepts as a risk in his game, which is good because we are all different.

 

Another great example is greatcrusade08's Scout list. The army most certainly doesn't flow well with Honour Guard, who generally find themselves a big old target with no other units likely to get the same attention (limited armoured vehicles in his army of course).

 

What I'm saying here is you might find you don't like Honour Guard because they either don't work for your playstyle or army, or you don't want to play the way needed to get the most out of them. But don't discard a unit out of hand just until you get the chance to trial it. ^_^

[Captain Juan Juarez]

@Captain Idaho if you are paying for a chapter mast along with them even th/ss termies in a land raider come close in cost, not under but close...

 

Actually no. Let do the math for you all:

 

A Land Raider with terminators will cost a

minimum of 450 points.

 

An Honour Guard squad with a rhino will be about 260.

Then you add the chapter master with rb/ss, which is 170.

That's 430 in total.

 

Now you have a difference of 20 points.

But it's not a fair comparison!

For this problem to make sense you need to add the cost of the unoptionable HQ the terminators require (the honour guard already have that covered with the chapter master).

 

Asuming you choose to spend the bare minimum on a HQ your equation should look like this:

 

Honour Guard 225 + rhino 35 + chapter master (HQ) 170 = 430

 

compared to:

 

Terminators 200 + Land Raider 250 + Barebones HQ 100 = 550

 

Now that's a difference of 120 points, in favour of the honour guard.

 

Now while I don't tend to disagree with the above, you also need to factor in the firepower of the Landraider - for the cost you are really adding something to the army too.

[greatcrusade08]

ok we seem to be running around in circles here.. a single LR is not hard to kill and most armies contain something that will bring it down turn one or two.

moreover the godhammer land raider suffers from a serious identity crisis.. it cant be an assault vehcile and hang back to fire all its weapons at the same time.

 

a chapter master is a viable HQ choice for many poeple, ive heard good arguments and bad, but its perosnal flavour and he is just as good as a captain with a 25 point lottery ticket.. if the OB doesnt do anything, ah well never mind, if it hits and takes down a land raider or somesuch then it has become a game changer.

 

The CM himself with RB and SS is a beast, the fact he opens up the HG is just great..

the Idaho pattern HG in my opinion are a brilliant unit, i have a set myself i just never get the chance to use them with a scout army..

the lack of invs isnt a big deal IMO.. i always find buckets of dice kill more termies than the odd plasma or melta weapon anyway.

 

a fact backed up in a game last night when a friend asked me to give him some advice running t-fires agains a deathwing army.. on three occasions he scored between 14-20 wounds on a 5 man squad, killing three termies on two of those three occasions.

 

the 2+ armour save of a HG is good enough to go toe to toe with all troop types, the odd PW or PF can be mitigated by the chapter master.. if you want a unit that cant take on a dedicated assault unit i have some advice...

shooty shooty little birdy...

 

to kill a dedicated assualt unit requires a liberal application of low AP firepower.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

ok we seem to be running around in circles here.. a single LR is not hard to kill and most armies contain something that will bring it down turn one or two.

moreover the godhammer land raider suffers from a serious identity crisis.. it cant be an assault vehcile and hang back to fire all its weapons at the same time.

 

I'm not going round in circles, I just think taht if you are using Transports as part of the equation you need to factor what else they bring to the table - even if only in potential.

[Arkios]

Ok, quick question from someone who has never used Honour Guard ever before:

 

On the Chapter Champion, why take the Relic Blade instead of the Thunder Hammer?

 

The key thing that makes the Relic blade so useful on a captain / master is his I5, but the Champion is only I4.

Combine this with the facts that the Champ has special rules allowing him to re-roll failed hits and woulds against enemy ICs and he himself is part of the unit and not an IC and he can effectively be a "hidden" Thunder Hammer wielding IC wrecker!

 

As I've said, I've never used the unit before but i am a little curious about them. Would the Hammer Champ be viable, or would it rely too much on his Honour Guard brethren to take too many wounds before he would swing? Should you even be trying to pit the champ against enemy ICs, or steer the entire unit clear of them to bully weaker units instead? Honour Guard noob here. :D