Honor Guard vs Command Squad vs. Vanguard

[Captain Idaho]

It's a matter of taste really. When operating at full strength (so, often early game) will be fine, but there is a risk later on that he might not be able to strike before being struck down.

 

Ultimately, it's a case, for me at least, of the preferred target of Honour Guard. Independent characters aside, a Relic Blade generally allows you to wound on a 2+ and still strike at Initiative 4. That is better performance than a Thunder Hammer. The re-rolls to hit and wound against ICs means that even T5 models are in trouble.

 

With regards to target units, yes there are many situations where you won't want to take on that Independent Character as his escort is also so hard core. Don't take on an Archon and Incubi! If you go a whole game killing nothing but rank and file (so being a bully unit) you will have done just as well.

 

Pick your targets. Take time to review each enemy unit in the opponent's list and consider what chances Honour Guard have against them. It helps you formulate a strategy too, as in what are you going to target first to maximise your armies chance of winning. I know you all probably know this, but don't forget to do this for Honour Guard as well!

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I dislike the thunder hammer option in HG, it seems very out of place! For me the whole unit is about hitting first and killing enemies outright and the TH puts the champ striking last means several less attacks before the enemy strikes and thus the HG seems to take a survival plunge. Its just my opinion

[Captain Idaho]

I dislike the thunder hammer option in HG, it seems very out of place! For me the whole unit is about hitting first and killing enemies outright and the TH puts the champ striking last means several less attacks before the enemy strikes and thus the HG seems to take a survival plunge. Its just my opinion

 

I personally dislike the Thunder Hammer too, but I'd imagine some people just can pass up on having a WS5 model hidden in a unit with 5 Thunder Hammer attacks on a charge! In fact having a Master similarly equipped means you would have 10 high WS S8 attacks on a charge!

 

Oh yeah, just to let people know not to forget the other rules for the Chapter Banner and the Champion with Relic Blade actually keeps his Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol! Outrageous! If you are against anything with T3 or an Independent character with T4, the Champion could do with swapping as he actually gets 6 attacks on the charge!

[DarkGuard]

...Oh yeah, just to let people know not to forget the other rules for the Chapter Banner and the Champion with Relic Blade actually keeps his Power Weapon and Bolt Pistol! Outrageous! If you are against anything with T3 or an Independent character with T4, the Champion could do with swapping as he actually gets 6 attacks on the charge!

 

I'm not sure about that bit Captain Idaho. Wouldn't that mean he has two different special combat weapons, and doesn't a model with two different special combat weapons not ever receive another attack for two combat weapons because he's carrying too much specialist wargear? Forgive me if I'm wrong, that's my interpretation of it. Of course, you still have the rest of the squad, and this thread has now made me want to try them out, or at least convert my Chapter Master and some Honour Guard for him.

[Captain Idaho]

He has 2 special close combat weapons and a normal close combat weapon. I will go check the rules to see if I have been cheating but I thought you could choose which to use and because you have a CCW that isn't special you can still get the benefit.

[greatcrusade08]

people have used that argument to stop calgar getting his +1A because of his PW.. in my opinion the argument is nonsensical and the rule in question only covers when using 2 special ccws together, it doesnt cover using a third and choosing which weapons you fight with

[fredbob524]

The extra attacks only come when you use the two powerfists, or the powersword and pistol

[Captain Idaho]

people have used that argument to stop calgar getting his +1A because of his PW.. in my opinion the argument is nonsensical and the rule in question only covers when using 2 special ccws together, it doesnt cover using a third and choosing which weapons you fight with

 

Well I wouldn't personally claim an extra attack if Calgar used his power weapon, going on RAW, but I agree that there is little reason a model shouldn't be able to claim an additional attack if using 2 different special weapons. After all the points cost of those 2 weapons is fairly steep!

 

But yeah, it states you must use a special cc attack if you have one, and you must choose if you have 2. If also says you can't gain an attack from 2 different special close combat weapons. That to me means you can farily claim one as you aren't using just 2, you have 3 separate CC attacks.

[DarkGuard]

Captain Idaho, you and GC08 talk a lot of sense, and if I'm being honest I wouldn't begrudge you another attack if you're using the power weapon and pistol. I think GC08 probably has it right, the thing being choice. If he had a relic blade and power weapon only then no extra attack, but if he had a relic blade, power weapon and bolt pistol then choosing the power weapon and bolt pistol should confer the extra attack. I was just merely curious earlier.

[greatcrusade08]

people have used that argument to stop calgar getting his +1A because of his PW.. in my opinion the argument is nonsensical and the rule in question only covers when using 2 special ccws together, it doesnt cover using a third and choosing which weapons you fight with

 

Well I wouldn't personally claim an extra attack if Calgar used his power weapon, going on RAW, but I agree that there is little reason a model shouldn't be able to claim an additional attack if using 2 different special weapons. After all the points cost of those 2 weapons is fairly steep!

 

But yeah, it states you must use a special cc attack if you have one, and you must choose if you have 2. If also says you can't gain an attack from 2 different special close combat weapons. That to me means you can farily claim one as you aren't using just 2, you have 3 separate CC attacks.

 

sorry i wasnt clear, ive heard the argument that he doesnt get his extra fist attack, becuase his Pw counts as a second type of special weapon..

i think we need to judge these things with a little common sense..

[Captain Idaho]

sorry i wasnt clear, ive heard the argument that he doesnt get his extra fist attack, becuase his Pw counts as a second type of special weapon..

i think we need to judge these things with a little common sense..

 

You're kidding?! Some people ^_^

 

That's outrageous! He has 2 Power fists for crying out loud!

[greatcrusade08]

sorry i wasnt clear, ive heard the argument that he doesnt get his extra fist attack, becuase his Pw counts as a second type of special weapon..

i think we need to judge these things with a little common sense..

 

You're kidding?! Some people ^_^

 

That's outrageous! He has 2 Power fists for crying out loud!

 

i agree with you, but technically he has only two special weapons, the guantlets of ultramar and a power sword.. the guantlets are a matched pair of fists but are noted as being one item of wargear..

By RAW they do have a case, but its asinine IMO.

check this thread out.. its a year old which shows how much some arguments affect me that i can rememebr it from that long ago

 

linkage

[BrotherWade]

@Captain Idaho

 

I have read this post from start to end and I give my apologies for asking what would be something of an obvious question to more frequent posters. Can you tell me what the 'Idaho' pattern honor guard unit specifications? Number of models? Weapon Choices? Do they have to take a dedicated transport?

[greatcrusade08]

@Captain Idaho

 

I have read this post from start to end and I give my apologies for asking what would be something of an obvious question to more frequent posters. Can you tell me what the 'Idaho' pattern honor guard unit specifications? Number of models? Weapon Choices? Do they have to take a dedicated transport?

 

ooh ooh i can answer this..

the Idaho pattern HG is pretty much the optimal way to run them IMO.

its a chapter master with relic blade and storm shield, with 5 honour guard, one with chapter banner, the champion with relic blade.

they ride in either a rhino or razorback

[Captain Idaho]

@Captain Idaho

 

I have read this post from start to end and I give my apologies for asking what would be something of an obvious question to more frequent posters. Can you tell me what the 'Idaho' pattern honor guard unit specifications? Number of models? Weapon Choices? Do they have to take a dedicated transport?

 

ooh ooh i can answer this..

the Idaho pattern HG is pretty much the optimal way to run them IMO.

its a chapter master with relic blade and storm shield, with 5 honour guard, one with chapter banner, the champion with relic blade.

they ride in either a rhino or razorback

 

It's also a clear sign of my ego, seeing as I coined that phrase!

 

To be fair on me, I did have a reason that wasn't just stoking my ego! I realised I was mentioning them alot and got lazy repeating myself in the same thread. Bad, I know.

[Kay]

i usually scort my captain (not chapter master) with the following:

 

8 man Vanguard Squad

3 Storm shields

Relic Blade Upgrade

Power fiston one vet.

 

285 points

 

I love this unit as it can do everything. In conjunction with your captain, you have 6 3++wounds, you deal 4 WS6 S6 at i5+3 WS4 S6+24 WS4 S4 at i4+3 WS4 S8 at i on the charge. Thats pretty much all you need to wipe out almost any unit in the game, while having enough bodies AND resilience (thanks to the SS) to survive any retribution (or rubber sword syndrome)

 

I know they are more expensive than any of their competitors, but i feel that they excel at close combat as well as any of tem while they are more resilient than any o them (maybe except Termies). Their greatest advabtage is flexibility, they can be thrown at regular infantry, as well as to MC and combat specialists and survive, and even kill them.

[meatball]

I run a captain and a chaplain together with a command squad.

The command squad clocks is at 220 pts and is composed of:

An apoth

Company champion

Vet with strom shield

Vet with twin Lightning Claws

Vet with storm shield and thunder hammer.

 

Now this command squad is fairly pricey but as you might imagine it performs very well on the charge, benefits from different model shenanigans, take some ranged punishment and not flee .

However, point wise and efficiency wise there are several improvements that can be made on the spot- like replacing a LC from the twin LC dude with a SS, and replacing the TH with a PF, but i really like the models as they are. In any case I still prefer the command squad due to the fact that it can get Invulnerable saves providing wargear which the honor guard lacks.

 

I kinda adhere to the rule of thumb that proper assault units in low and medium initiative armies need invulnerable saves in order to survive in CC.

 

Cheers

[Captain Idaho]

I know they are more expensive than any of their competitors, but i feel that they excel at close combat as well as any of tem while they are more resilient than any o them (maybe except Termies). Their greatest advabtage is flexibility, they can be thrown at regular infantry, as well as to MC and combat specialists and survive, and even kill them.

 

You are actually quite right! Vanguard are much more flexible than Terminators or Honour Guard and actually, points per model, the unit you have described is only 29pts.

[Trel]

The last game I played, I tried the following. It was expensive, but it dished out an absurd number of power attacks.

 

Chapter Master: Storm Shield, Relic Blade

Honor Guard x2: Chapter Banner

Champion: Relic Blade

Chaplain

Razorback: TL Heavy Bolter

 

It came in at a weighty 465pts, but threw down 16 re-rollable attacks on the charge.

[Captain Idaho]

How did the game go? I've been tempted to try replacing two Honour Guard for a Chaplain to increase survivability a little and the horrific charge that produces!

[BrotherWade]

Would putting a librarian in the honor guard squad be worth it to give them all a 5+ inv save from his psy power? Or maybe the use of null zone to counter act enemy inv saves with the crazy amount of power weapon attacks being thrown around?

[Shadowstalker Grim]

I reckon command squads or honour guard she be able to purchase a MOTF, Chaplain, Librarian, Standard Bearer and Champion in addition to extra members for an uber squad of death....imagine an honour guard with chaplain buffs and libby buffs AND a chapter master swinging weapons too whilst the techmarine standard bearer and champ do their thing in the background...

 

Still overall i would have thought HG benefit from chaplains the most, for the extra re-rolls they need to make sure every hit counts

[Trel]

The last game I played, I tried the following. It was expensive, but it dished out an absurd number of power attacks.

 

Chapter Master: Storm Shield, Relic Blade

Honor Guard x2: Chapter Banner

Champion: Relic Blade

Chaplain

Razorback: TL Heavy Bolter

 

It came in at a weighty 465pts, but threw down 16 re-rollable attacks on the charge.

 

 

How did the game go? I've been tempted to try replacing two Honour Guard for a Chaplain to increase survivability a little and the horrific charge that produces!

 

It went really well, actually. It's a utter monster unit, but it's very small so it's easy to hide in cover. (I generally play on pretty terrain-heavy boards.) In my first game using it, I played against an Eldar list, they chewed through a Wraithlord and a large Seer Council in one round of combat each. In my second game, it took two rounds of combat for them to take out a squad of TH/SS Terminators, but I lost an Honor Guard guy. (I deliberately charged into the biggest things I could find.)

 

With my normal Captain + Command Squad (Capt. w/ Arty and Relic, Cmd with PF and Champ.) I would not have done this, as confident that they'd survive.

 

The downside I see with this unit is that it's frightfully expensive and it kind of ends up being overkill against most individual units. Also, it draws a living ton of fire.

[waaanial00]

they chewed through a Wraithlord and a large Seer Council in one round of combat each.

 

Hmmm I think taking on a Wraithlord in combat is about requiring quite a lot of luck. You may have loads of attacks which are rerollable but you still need 6's to wound. Methinks that was more luck than anything, something my inability to roll a 6 would find hard to replicate at least -_-

[Captain Idaho]

Agreed, unless it had a single wound left I would probably never charge the thing with Honour Guard unless I had no other options…

 

But it worked so all is good. :D