Honor Guard vs Command Squad vs. Vanguard

[greatcrusade08]

fortune often favours the brave.. or stupid.

trust me :lol:

[Trel]

Before playing sensibly, I wanted to give them a test by fire, in the form of some heroically idiotic charge.

 

Since then, I have played them as a bully unit, using the supporting fire from the Razorback's Heavy Bolter and the large number of attacks to ensure that they never get bogged down. My last game using the unit had them take down a Tac Squad, a Scout Squad, and then another Tac Squad in consecutive turns. In that regard, they make back their points pretty handily.

[Captain Idaho]

Cool. How many games have you had with them and against what opponents etc?

 

Another thing for people to remember with regards to Honour Guard is destroying an enemy unit and thus being exposed to fire can work in your favour too. The opponent could all of a sudden direct dispportionate resources to their elimination, saving your scoring units from taking that fire. Since they have a 2+ save, can use cover and they just eliminated a unit, there is a good chance the opponent will put his valuable AP2 weapons on them, weapons which more often than not should be firing at your vehicles. :D

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Here's my question about the Honor Guard. Is it worth ever taking relic blades on squad members other than the Chapter Champ? It makes an expensive unit more expensive quickly, sure, but increasing the output of the entire squad to S6 seems worth it to me. But then again, I play shooty Marines so this sort of thing is out of my realm of experience.

[Captain Idaho]

The sheer expense makes it a very risky option. If you carve through several units and/or a couple vehicles it could be worth it, but if your opponent sees the threat and dedicates their army to neutralising the threat you could have invested too much. Basically you are increasing the chance of a single point of failure in the army by investing heavily in a single unit/combination.

 

That said, 4 Honour Guard, with 2 Relic Blades on the normal members, plus a Relic Blade onf the Champion, costs 220pts, which as you can see is very similar to the Idaho pattern and likely very powerful... I might even try it myself!

 

We can call it the Deus Ex Ferrum pattern! ;)

[greatcrusade08]

just out of curioisty and off topic which meaning of the latin word ferrum is your name referring to?

sword or iron?

edit: nevermind just saw your an iron hands player...

God of iron it is then

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The sheer expense makes it a very risky option. If you carve through several units and/or a couple vehicles it could be worth it, but if your opponent sees the threat and dedicates their army to neutralising the threat you could have invested too much. Basically you are increasing the chance of a single point of failure in the army by investing heavily in a single unit/combination.

 

That said, 4 Honour Guard, with 2 Relic Blades on the normal members, plus a Relic Blade onf the Champion, costs 220pts, which as you can see is very similar to the Idaho pattern and likely very powerful... I might even try it myself!

 

We can call it the Deus Ex Ferrum pattern! :rolleyes:

 

I ask because I've been toying with the idea of building some for my Iron Hands, and I thought of going all out with multiple relic blades and the Chapter Banner. I've been planning on working with Pedro as my HQ, but he doesn't seem to mesh well with HG for some reason. If he hands out near them, they'll get the +1A without taking the Banner, but then I don't get the other benefits of the banner bearer. It's a connundrum for me -- to take a banner if Pedro's around, or just to take a vanilla Master.

 

 

just out of curioisty and off topic which meaning of the latin word ferrum is your name referring to?

sword or iron?

edit: nevermind just saw your an iron hands player...

God of iron it is then

 

That was the idea, yes. I've always been a big fan of anything Mechanicum-related for some strange reason, and the Iron Hands were the only Loyalist Chapter that really made me want to play Space Marines.

[Captain Idaho]

Well I was toying with the idea of Relic blades enmass, so I was thinking you could drop a single model and have the following unit:

 

4x Honour Guard with Relic Blade on everyone and a Chapter Banner costs 235pts, which is very comparable to my usual configuration in cost.

 

The Chapter Banner is useful for it's bonus to Independent characters as well as it's other bonuses, and Kantor with his powerfist directly takes away from the ideal escort of a tough IC to assist the unit in combat (I5 goes a long way). So I agree with you he doesn't really mesh with Honour Guard.

 

Given the choice I would rather a do-it-yourself Master...

 

Incidently you could take a Master with just a power weapon and it's just 140pts, so if you are strapped for points...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Well, I had also considered sticking Pedro elsewhere so that other units could benefit from his Inspiring Presence, and stick a Chaplain in the HG. Fearless can be a two-edged sword, true, but the rerolls to hit would increase the unit's effectiveness. The rerolls also help make up the loss in attack volume for losing the PW for relic blades. No Libby for the rest of the army, I know, but such are the sacrifices one must make.

[deity12]

In my opinion, honour guard are the best. Ony take Vanguard if you absouloutely NEED the jump packs or you drop pod them in as a vital tactic (cause they can 'pod and assualt). And honour guard are worth their points more than command squads. 5 command sqaud with 4 power weapons( apothecary cannot take one) costs 185pts. 5 honuor guard (and champion) costs 185, you are getting an extra power weapon, the skill of the champion and artificer is better than FNP. Anything that denies artificer denies FNP and there are plenty of weapons (krak missiles, warboss with big chopppa etc.) that denies FNP but not artificer. IF the apothecary dies then you lose FNP, but no matter who dies you still have the artificer protection. And FNP you MUST be able to take the artificer NO MATTER WHAT. If you can take the save the FNP has the same odds of protecting as the artificer. FNP is easier to deny though. AND the chapter banner is a million times better than the STUPID company standard. I cannot tell how many times a unit of 4 honour guard with relic blades and chapter banner has destroyed most of my force singlehandedly. True expensive but it reguarly takes out 5 termies, 10 assualt marines, two tactical squads and often more only losing a man or two. :) Its ridiculous.

[DarkGuard]

@diety12, sorry mate but you can't assault Vanguard out of a Drop Pod, HI only works for jump packs. Also, yes, Honour Guard are point for point, man for man better than Vanguard IMHO, unless you want the jump packs and HI. However, you've got to take a Chapter Master. Vanguard have utility in that you can take a Libby and still take them. Different armies, different needs, different desires. Also, with Vanguard you can have a couple of bullet catchers, whereas every Honour Guard lost is a power weapon lost.

 

And Command squads have their uses, though IMO its rarely in assault, rather shooting is a better place for them as they can take 4 special weapons. If I wanted them as an assault unit I'd rather try and get the extra points for the Chapter Master and Honour Guard.

 

I'm all for Honour Guard, mind you, I'm pretty sure I've said that earlier, but I just like to throw a spanner in the works :).

 

Also, Deux Ex Ferrum your Honour Guard sounds nasty. Of course, I would be concerned about the risk of loosing Relic Blades fast, those are points you've spent to upgrade them after all. Perhaps a couple of power weapons? But then as has been said earlier who dares wins, if you can get a good assault with them those Relic Blades will pay off. May I also ask why you seem keen to make Pedro work? Is it for fluff reasons, or is it for his special rules, like scoring Sternguard and Stubborn? I only ask because if its none of the rules, and you're fine with taking the Chapter Banner I'd suggest going for a normal Chapter Master to lead assault, better in combat, and could be cheaper.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Also, Deux Ex Ferrum your Honour Guard sounds nasty. Of course, I would be concerned about the risk of loosing Relic Blades fast, those are points you've spent to upgrade them after all. Perhaps a couple of power weapons? But then as has been said earlier who dares wins, if you can get a good assault with them those Relic Blades will pay off. May I also ask why you seem keen to make Pedro work? Is it for fluff reasons, or is it for his special rules, like scoring Sternguard and Stubborn? I only ask because if its none of the rules, and you're fine with taking the Chapter Banner I'd suggest going for a normal Chapter Master to lead assault, better in combat, and could be cheaper.

 

I talk about Pedro a lot because I decided to use him for my drop pod army; I like the Stubborn, the Inspiring Presence, and I love Sternguard so making them scoring gives me a valid excuse to take a second squad. I consider it all good count-as for my Iron Hands, fits their theme as I see it. I even kit-bashed my own counts-as Pedro (shameless painting plug!):

 

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/DTRI/PICT0186.jpg

 

 

As for Honor Guard, I've been trying to figure out a good way to get them working with Pedro for a while and this discussion has convinced me that they really just don't work well with him. I guess it is time to start looking at how to properly throw together a relic blade/stormshield Iron Hand. . .

 

As for yet-in-flux "Ferrum-pattern Honor Guard," I'm thinking that the 4-man, three total relic blades, with banner at 220 sounds pretty damn good, actually. Add a RB/SS Master and a las/plas Razorback, and that's an assault formation that will fit in nicely with an armored cav-style army list I've been piecing together. And still room for that Chaplain if I feel like it; Cassius makes for a decent Iron Father stand-in, what with the bionical FNP and all. Hmmmm.

[DarkGuard]

Ah that's exactly what I wanted to hear, thanks for taking the time to respond Deux Ex Ferrum. If I may suggest a way to take both, if you've got the points that is. You've mentioned Cassius being a good Iron Father, why not take him with the Honour Guard, and run Pedro separately with some Sternguard. That way you have two +1 attack bubbles, your Honour Guard get a hard as nails Chaplain which lets them hit with more attacks, and its still fluffy and lets you use scoring units. The Pedro model by the way if very nice ;).

[greatcrusade08]

As for yet-in-flux "Ferrum-pattern Honor Guard," I'm thinking that the 4-man, three total relic blades, with banner at 220 sounds pretty damn good, actually. Add a RB/SS Master and a las/plas Razorback, and that's an assault formation that will fit in nicely with an armored cav-style army list I've been piecing together. And still room for that Chaplain if I feel like it; Cassius makes for a decent Iron Father stand-in, what with the bionical FNP and all. Hmmmm.

 

i thin it will need some playtesting, but its droolworthy ;)

[Brother Captain Josef]

I have been reading this with great interest as I had managed to get my hands on some of the old metal BA DC and was wondering whether to convert them to VG or HG. As it happened I chose HG and I swear I came up with EXACTLY the same configuration as Idaho completely independently and without irony declare them: BCJ Pattern HG! :)

 

As a case in point though it says in Pedro's entry that his inspiring presence special rule does not stack with the chapter banner. Sorry chaps as it would be completely SICK - 6 PW attacks on the charge.... A real 'This Is Sparta / Rynn's World!!' moment right there.

 

Anyway, the way I had envisioned using them was to avoid MCs and PW heavy units (well obviously - Maaatt Daymurrrrrn) as I usually shoot these but to throw at tough non power weapon units such as Plague Marines, Bezerkers or anything with a lower initiative value and bully troop units. Lets be honest there are plenty of nice juicy targets out there for them if we have a think and it's something different - the potential for converting and painting in this unit is awesome.

 

I'm liking the Ferrum Pattern HG too - with the low model count there is the opportunity to take advantage of the wound allocation rule:

 

Champion W/RB

1 x HG W/RB + CB (I'm assuming the CB makes the chap here unique)

1 x HG W/RB

1 x HG W/PW

 

@220 points I agree this is a steal and there's still room in the Razorback for the Master AND a counts as Cassius but then you are heading towards the 500pts mark depending on how you tool the Master.

[LardO'Blood]

Mostly towards Idaho, how do Idaho Pattern HG go up against a few of the better Tyranid assault units/MCs? I'm thinking hive tyrants with a few guard, solo carnifexes and trygons, maybe a lictor or two?

I was thinking of engaging the hive tyrant with my champion and having the chapter master engage the guard so the master doesn't get whipped to I1. (pun intended)

[Captain Idaho]

A full strength Idaho Pattern unit will munch through Lictor Broods with little loss, though it is always annoying when your opponent rolls a disproprotionate amount of sixes. Just make sure you put the Master in base contact with one model and try to put the squad in base contact with the others. Hard to do, but sometimes you can move in such a manner that you will only just contact the unit, but able to reach every model. Not essential though as there seldom units of three and smaller broods aren't that likely to roll many sixes.

 

The same Honour Guard will thrash the pants off a poor Carnifex (and Mawlocs for that matter) without loss! Striking before them you are likely to get alot of wounds even with T6. The 10 Relic Blade attacks all hit on 3+ and so will those 20 power weapon attacks.

 

Trygons will take some of your models with them as they strike simultaneously as the squad, but it can be a worthy trade off if it stops a crucial Tyranid assault. You can concentrate your firepower elsewhere while your Honour Guard sacrifice themselves to kill a Trygon. Likely the Master will survive unscathed if the opponent concentrates on the unit, so don't be too disheartened. ;)

 

Hive Tyrants are ok targets for a last ditch assault, but you really would rather not do this as you are likely to lose the unit, especially if with Tyrant Guard. This is one of those times where having Thunder Hammer Terminators is better. -_-

 

As for the rest of the army, remember their army doesn't have Frag grenades so you could even kill Genestealers with Honour Guard ;) Don't be afraid to hold up in area terrain as a screen to the rest of your army with them and shoot with their bolters, safe in the knowledge you strike first in assaults.

[BassWave]

I once tried out Honor Guard in my Salamanders list after reading one of Idaho's posts. I was experimenting salamanders without Vulkan and came up with this HG formation-

 

Chapter Master- Relic Blade, Grenade launcher

Champion- Thunder Hammer

4 Honor Guard- Banner, 1 Grenade launcher

Rhino

 

It did fairly well. I wanted to give them the grenade launchers to make it easier to whittle down units before I charged them. Managed to charge a genestealer brood with broodlord and wipe them out with only one casualty. Since everyone's named their own formations I guess I'll dub these Basswave pattern HG :D I believe thunder hammers are pretty useful in the event you get stuck in with a dreadnought or similar unit. With the Master already striking before everyone with his relic blade, you really don't miss the extra Relic blade at I4.

[aekold]

Looking at the BassWave pattern, Is it worth to add a single grenade launcher? This to create one more unique model for some wound allocation tricks.

[Grey Mage]

Actually, by doing so youll keep the same number of unique models while making the squad more expensive.

 

Currently its 2 normal, 1 grenade, 1 banner, 1 champion. Youd make it 1 normal, 2 grenade, 1 banner, 1 champion.

 

Not much use that eh?

[Captain Idaho]

You already can use the wound allocation trick with just normal members and a Champion + Ancient.

 

For the record, I only named the load out I used Idaho Pattern because for quite some time I was the only one around who spoke about them, therefore I got tired of referring to the full squad configuration in a single thread in every post, so coined the phrase Idaho pattern so I didn't have to repeat myself.

 

I'm not completely arrogant! :P

 

@ BassWave: Glad you were inspired to use the unit with your own twist. They really have a bit of scope for a little customisation (though not enough) and you have created a unit that fulfills your needs. Even happier they worked out for you!

 

I can't remember who now, but someone created a thread discussing the virtues of using a unit of Honour Guard in a drop pod and grenade Launchers all round instead of Relic blades, supporting a drop pod assault army. They have bolters so against infantry the unit can lay down a serious amount of firepower.

 

Not my cup of tea personally, but I'm sure there is scope for using the unit in such a drop pod army.

[aekold]

Actually, by doing so youll keep the same number of unique models while making the squad more expensive.

 

Currently its 2 normal, 1 grenade, 1 banner, 1 champion. Youd make it 1 normal, 2 grenade, 1 banner, 1 champion.

 

Not much use that eh?

 

Little error on my side. I meant adding a grenade launcher to the Idaho pattern honour guard. But then again as Idaho said, you can allready allocate the more nasty wounds.

[Grizzly_bear]

I'll add my own little input into this thread...

 

A basic VanGaurd vet/vet is 25 points, +3 armour save with BP and CCW....

It's 15pts for A.armour and 15pts for p.weapon, that's an extra 30pts so now they'll be 55pts

 

Honour gaurd are 35pts with +2 armour and power sword...

 

I perosnally would take grenade launchers for 80% of your honour gaurd and relic blade for chapter champion with digi weapons....they can harder and rip units aparts...command squads can be tailored but can be overlwhelmed quite quickly, I just think for 35pts you're getting a bargin for honour and with grenade launchers they can shoot and then still assault....frag or krack grenades (depends on opponent).....pure field day :D

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Anyone thought about taking all 3 of these units?

 

Chapter Master – Relic Blade, Storm Shield, Artificer Armour – 185 points

Honour Guard – 5 Members, Relic Blade, Chapter Banner – 225 points

Razorback – 40 points

Captain – Relic Blade, Storm Shield – 145 points

Command Squad – Champ, Banner, Power weapon – 160 points

Razorback – 40 points

 

Tactical Squad – Flamer, Multi-Melta, Rhino – 205 points

Tactical Squad – Flamer, Multi-Melta, Rhino – 205 points

 

Vanguard Veterans – 2 power weapons, storm shield – 170 points

Razorback – 40 points

Attack bike – Multi-melta – 50 points

Attack Bike – Multi-melta – 50 points

 

1510 points

 

Could run something like that and have all 3 units running around doing whatever.....i dunno how well that would do though!

 

Edit: Points amendments!

[BassWave]

Hmmm (strokes beard) I think I would like to try that list out ;)