The Normish's Adepta Sororitas Armor Theory

[The Normish]

I was browsing around the internet looking for John Blanche art, and happened upon a discussion of the armor possessed by the Sisters of Battle. This thread was about the armor on the Ssiters of Battle. The debate was mostly about the design of the corsets and the breastplates, how those should be, and whether or not the armor really represented a 3+ save. Since I don't feel like joining DakkaDakka just to comment on that, I figured I'd get the opinions of our resident SoB players and others.

 

Now, leaving aside the rules validation of the 3+ save (because lets face it, the rules do not correctly represent the fluff in the interest of fair gaming - hence why our Space Marines are hardly the one-man armies they are made up to be), I formed an idea about why the armor is the way it is.

 

There is no argument that the Sisters of Battle armor is feminine. Whether you like it or not (I myself am indifferent), the armor is obviously demonstrative of the female form.

Out of the Imperial armies we play, I think you could group them under three headings: Space Marines (even Grey Knights and our derivative Codices), Imperial Guard, and Sisters of Battle. I realize there is the Adeptus Mechanicus and other factions, but these three are the main ones, especially as covered by this board. We will however not go into detail about the Guard armor, except as a point of comparison, which I will address presently.

 

So, what does this have to do with my opinion? Well, the way I see it:

Space Marines are the hyper-masculine army. They're the macho, "we'll-beat-you-into-a-pulp-as-soon-as-look-at-you" kind of guys. They are exclusively male. They exhibit male characteristics, and their armies emblazon masculine mythology and themes (when you think warrior-monk, you think of a man, after all - at least I do)

The Imperial Guard are gender-neutral. Sure, more men are represented in the miniatures and fluff (except in the Ciaphas Cain novels, but I have a mixed opinion on those), but that may just be to familiarize the army with us real people. We are habituated to male-dominated military forces, and so a male-dominated Imperial Guard allows for identity, compared to say the Eldar and Dark Eldar, who have a higher amount of females int he models - because they are meant to be uncomfortably alien to us. This is however, not very relevant, except in saying that for all intents and purposes, the IG is a neutral sort of army. Everything they do in there, one could easily imagine both a man and a woman doing.

The Sisters of Battle, finally, are a feminine force. They are the opposite to the Space Marines in more ways than one. They are exclusively female, they are Ecclesiastical servants (I know some Chapters follow the Imperial Cult, mine included, but they are hardly servants of it), they rely more on collective faith and prowess than individual feats of power and courage. Also, they are the nuns to the monks, in that they are opposites in the religious devotion spectrum.

 

So, you ask, why are the Sisters represented in such form-fitting armor? Clearly it designed to excite the male mind (not necessarily, but come on, your average man will appreciate it - not myself, I am thankful to say). To this I say, yes, it is. Because it needs to be overtly feminine. So why aren't the Space Marines dashingly handsome Adonis-like figures with outlined musculature? Well, look at the Blood Angels, and - only joking. Really, Is suspect it is because men do not enjoy playing with "sexualized" versions of their own gender. Men being the dominant group in this hobby, and Space Marines begin the dominant army. When women outnumber men at Games Workshop HQ, we might see that change.

 

So, that's my opinion, if that made any sense at all. If I left something unclear, no doubt the razor wit of the forum members will cut me soon enough.

[Chengar Qordath]

The topic actually came up recently in a brief derail on this thread. The general consensus was that it would be nice to see Sisters of Battle in armor that looks more like actual armor and less like something designed to titillate male players, although there's nothing wrong with the armor still staying definably feminine as long as its not ridiculously sexualized.

 

Granted, metal breasts slapped onto armor would actually be an incredibly bad idea that seriously reduces the armor's integrity and would channel any bullet that hit the chest directly into the wearer's heart, but Space Marine armor violates most of the rules of real-world armor design too.

[Eltnot]

No I actually agree with what you've said. Also from a technical point of view, SoB armour kinda makes sense if you look over the following points:

 

Power Armour worn by marines also includes fibre bundles to increase the wearer's strength, whilst SoB armour does not. These extra muscles will take up room and thus require more bulk.

 

Armour is normally flat because it is heavy, however this is the future, and it is likely that power armour could be made of much lighter materials. If you don't have to worry about weight as much then you can happily add bends into the armour and extra angles designed to deflect shots rather than absorb them.

 

Consider some of the plate armour used thousands of years ago in Europe. Sure it was designed for protection, but it was also ornate and some aspects of it lended more to being aesthetically pleasing than more efficient. After all, how often are you fighting in battle? It follows the same logic for Sisters in that often their duties involve ceremonies, and the occasional police keeping action. Their armour already provides great protection against weapon that they're likely to face, so it comes down to a design point of do you need to make it better?

 

So SoB armour:

Doesn't need to be as bulky.

Can be thinner due to weight saving materials.

Needs to aesthetically pleasing due to the nature of their regular duties (which despite what some might think is not constant battle) in providing examples for others, and generally being looked up to.

[ArmouredWing]

Heh heh heh, I have to say I find this faintly amusing that what appears to be a predominantly male series of posts is alluding to the fact that SoB are too sexualised because their armour is form fitting.

 

There's a couple of things to bear in mind here. Firstly (and this may come as a surpise to some) women like to look good and even in this day and age the majority of the female species dress in a way that makes them feel feminine and good. So for SoB to have armour that clearly makes them look like a woman isn't overtly sexist, it's natural.

 

The second thing to consider is that the fluff is generally male driven to have a strong female force is a good thing to balance out the testosterone. What a lot of folks don't realise is that part of the drive to have SoB was to get a greater chunk of the french market, sisters are the 40k equivalent of an army of 'Joan of Arc' and the fleur de lys is just a part of the package that was aimed to draw our french cousins into 40K as apposed to sticking with their WFB Bretonian armies.

 

So from my point of view I want sisters to look female in appearance, they aren't scantily clad they're fully covered but they are distinctly female and that's a good thing because in the grimdark of the 40K universe there's got to be some glamour/class and the SoB have got it in spades!

[andrewm9]

I don't think its about the Sisters wanting to look good. Likely its some man who designed their armor. It might even have been Goge Vandire who would have had his reasons (I doubt this is the actual case). I think it looks the way it does (feminine) because of the Decree Passive. This way no Imperial will mistake them for being men under arms for the Ecclesiarchy. As for the leather corset appearance on the torso I have no explanation, but its my belief that the leather corset is placed over the ceramite armor for decorative purposes. I guess you coudl more easily festoon it with purity seals and what not. The garter looking things are probably based on the idea of a cilice ( a device for showing repentence) which fits the theme sisters tend to go with.

[number6]

Firstly (and this may come as a surpise to some) women like to look good and even in this day and age the majority of the female species dress in a way that makes them feel feminine and good. So for SoB to have armour that clearly makes them look like a woman isn't overtly sexist, it's natural.

I see. Stands in stark contrast to men, who (and this may come as a surprise to some) are generally slovenly, worrying less about how they look and more about how manly they appear with their mates so as to drive off any hint of homosexuality.

 

:)

 

The more we avoid laying out cliched sexist stereotypes in this topic, the more likely it is that I will continue to let it live.

[chaplain belisarius]

i like the sob armour myself...

 

(goes back to waiting for plastic sob)

[Azezel]

Don't join Dakka - it is a wretched hive.

 

Anyway - the Sisters of Battle are gothic as all hell. They are far and away the most gothic thing in 40k.

 

Central to the gothic aesthetic is the idea of form over function. You must never, ever say 'no' to an artist, or an artisan, you must embelish and adorn and strive to go so far beyond the grotesque that you come right round to glorious again. That, my friends, is the Ecclesiarchy, and especially, the Sisters of Battle.

 

Seriously, they drive a church organ to war and kill people with it.

 

My own order of Sisters is entirely based around this fact. They wear bright gold armour covered in jewels and platinum and ivory and everything else that's shiny and can by stuck to a suit or armour. The whole point is to make sure that everybody in sight knows how awesome the Emperor (and his church) is.

 

The Sisters armour is not just for protection (they can take a railgun blast on the chin and shrug it off) - it's not even for propagannda (it's not propaganda if it's true) It's about showing the galaxyy something utterly brilliant. Utterly, gloriously over the top.

 

They don't wear armour like that to look femenine, or to look sexy or even to look cool. They wear it simply to be looked at - they don't care why you're looking, bring your own reasons, but by the god Emperor you will look!

[melvinmcsnatch]

--

[Algesan]

Here is decent looking armor that doesn't follow the "sexy chainmail bra and panties that protects as well as heavy plate" mindset.

 

Interesting comment about the French, but IMO, a big chunk of 40k background concepts can be read in Herbert's Dune series (which I just reread). Both are dark, both have existed for around 10,000 years (as long as you disregard the crap ripoffs that Herbert's son wrote), both have a massive galaxy shattering combat sequence to start the 10,000 years (Horus Heresy/Butlerian Jihad), both have an "immortal" God-Emperor who isn't quite like the rest of us (one is not quite dead yet and the other is not quite a worm yet), both have the uber warrior cult with Loyal/Chaos vs Fremen/Sardaukar and the IG subbing in for the generic Landsraad forces. So, all we are missing are the Fish Speakers/Bene Gesserit connection with religious overtones, so we get <cue Imperial Theme music> Sisters of Battle.

 

Actually, Sisters power armor should work just the same for providing strength as for Marines. It does in the Dark Heresy RPG even though they tried to fluff it away in on of the little caption boxes in the C:WH. The problem here is hardcoded concepts. Normal Human = STR 3 and Marine = STR 4 in a game designed and balanced around that relationship plus a max stat of 10 doesn't leave much wiggle room. STR 4, T 3 Sisters might be an interesting idea, but no, it doesn't work. The only way you might show the benefits without disrupting the STR ratios would be to give the Sisters +1 to WS and/or I. Instead of being "stronger", they are simply able to move faster and react quicker.

 

Of course, having an IG stat line (even if it is the same as a Vet Sgt) with a better Armor Save doesn't do a lot for the elite nature of the SoB (who arguably have less Sisters than there are Marines) vs. IG.

[The Normish]

Here is decent looking armor that doesn't follow the "sexy chainmail bra and panties that protects as well as heavy plate" mindset.

You think so? I think it sort of does.

EDIT: Oh, did you mean the shock troops later on down the page? In which case I agree with you.

 

Interesting comment about the French,

I agree with the rest of what you're saying, but I wasn't really addressing the rules, more o why GW chose the make the armor the way they did. Also, I can't seem to find anyone mentioning the French.

[Chengar Qordath]

I've already made my preferences for Sisters of Battle armor design known elsewhere; keep the current design more-or-less the same, but add some bulk to it so that it looks more like the power armor it is supposed to be. Like Azezel said, the basic design of the armor is wonderfully gothic, so it doesn't need a huge revision to go from the current version where it looks like a painted-on bodysuit to being utterly badass.

 

Also, when the new codex and plastic Sisters of Battle come out, I really hope they give us enough heads to choose between helmets and no helmets. Not sure if that's because I like the helmet designs for battlesisters, or if its just because I find painting an exposed head and hair to be a lot more difficult than painting helmets and I can be lazy sometimes.

[carnosaur93]

in my personal opinnion, ive allways seen it as the "gothic over the top" concept, wich imo is cool. however it is also clear that GW wanted to empathise on the fact that they are all female, making sure that we do not mistaken that... also i think they are nicely differenciated from spacemarines, wich i think was also in some way quite important... i must admit, if i was asked to design gothic power armor for girls. i would probarly make something along those lines, safe for the boobs (would be resevated for commanders/champions for extra ornamentation)... maybe alittle more bulk in places, but hell spacemarines need more bulk, too...but thats all just my opinnion. take it for what you want when a mostly gay guy is asked to discuss clearly female power armor...

 

EDIT: after looking at some soulstorm pics i gotta say. they are not really overly female... the robes especially takes away from that

[Mithril hound]

How the ass is SoB armor supposed to be as good as a crisis suit?. Compare a true scale marine to a Sob. How the ass are these supposed to offer the same amount of protection?

[Judanas]

How the ass is SoB armor supposed to be as good as a crisis suit?. Compare a true scale marine to a Sob. How the ass are these supposed to offer the same amount of protection?

 

Crisis Suits offer toughness, strength and a second wound too. It's not just armour save.

 

And according to the latest Dark Heresy book, SOB Power armour is basicly best quality light power armour. It makes up in pure toughness by being a work of genius art and not restricting your movement to the extent you can sneak silently in it. Crisis Suits are good but kilo for kilo SOB power armour blows it out of the water. If they had a suit the size of a crisis suit they would be even tougher than crisis suits.

[Algesan]

Here is decent looking armor that doesn't follow the "sexy chainmail bra and panties that protects as well as heavy plate" mindset.

You think so? I think it sort of does.

EDIT: Oh, did you mean the shock troops later on down the page? In which case I agree with you.

 

Interesting comment about the French,

I agree with the rest of what you're saying, but I wasn't really addressing the rules, more o why GW chose the make the armor the way they did. Also, I can't seem to find anyone mentioning the French.

 

Ugh, sorry, I meant to say scroll down. It depends on how many female heads they have without the Greek helmet on per sprue. Although I have been culling out the Marine heads that somewhat resemble the Sabbat pattern so that would stretch it out and if I use the left over bolter bits (BT, so lots of BP/CCW needed), I could argue that it is just a little conversion.

 

In post #4 about the French.

[The Normish]

In post #4 about the French.

Ah, well, since it didn't say "French" but rather "Joan of Arc", I didn't spot that.

It's true that the symbol of Joan of Arc and subsequently the Bourbons throughout Europe used (and still do) the fleur-de-lys.

I always thought of the Sisters as "Joans of Arc" anyway.

[jakehunter52]

A subject like this touches on a very integral part of the character of the Adeptas Sororitas. It has become one of their trademarks to which they can be easily identified and when one proposes whether it's existence is valid or not...that's hitting deep. As far as real world reasons, I am sure there are a ton of them. Some of them off the top of my head:

 

- Sculpting capabilities. Early female models were very exaggerated to emphasize the difference in gender and when the SoB line came out, it was much more toned down or at least par with what was out there already.

 

- Consistency with the Gothic theme of the Imperium and the Ecclesiarchy . Religion has always been lavish to better honor their gods and Sisters, being the devotees of said god, would not skimp. Better looks than practicality (though they have shown that both can work).

 

- As stated before, distinguishing the army from the rest in the 40k universe. Uniqueness is key for any army as a selling point to appeal to different tastes. Honestly, imagine if they all had "practical" breastplates and abdomen armour? I think that one would have a hard time saying that they were women if you didn't look up close to those few not wearing helmets.

 

Now, it has been shown with the Wyches sculpts that the designers have found a bit more subtlety why still retaining the feminine form. This I would not argue with because it would keep things in line with the current trend of new releases (less exaggerations, more detail, better posing) while still retaining the distinctiveness of who the Sisters are. As far as fluff goes, the whole argument about the form driving the bullet into the chest...too easy. It has been consistently shown that the Imperium's designs for weapons, armour, buildings, vehicles, etc are overly gaudy with designs and motifs and would be considered to be a hindrance in today's society. And yet, I believe that the level of technology allows for this "blanket" of luxury. It would best be paralleled with military issue items and civilian bought ones. Military equipment is always bare bones, usually not user friendly and has a serious lack of niceties, requiring the user to become familiar with it before able to use it to it's full extent. Civilian items are not forced upon someone, they are bought. Which means they must be easy to use, they must look appealing and having neat features to entertain is always a plus. Thus, because the Imperium's technology is so advanced (I use this term very loosely here), they can afford to have breast plates that...well, look like a woman's breasts. And who to say that it isn't purely ascetic and the armour is below, eh?

[Dark Dajin]

Thus, because the Imperium's technology is so advanced (I use this term very loosely here), they can afford to have breast plates that...well, look like a woman's breasts. And who to say that it isn't purely ascetic and the armour is below, eh?

 

Even if this is true, the armour, in art and otherwise, should be bulkier. I think the bulkiness of the current foot models suffices, on the seraphim it looks a bit too skintight though.

 

Although I admit, I love that the models are aesthetically pleasing. It would bother me much more if I got Plastic FSM instead of true Sisters. Then the whole 'realism' debate. It's mini wargaming for crying out loud :D

[Chengar Qordath]

Thus, because the Imperium's technology is so advanced (I use this term very loosely here), they can afford to have breast plates that...well, look like a woman's breasts. And who to say that it isn't purely ascetic and the armour is below, eh?

 

Even if this is true, the armour, in art and otherwise, should be bulkier. I think the bulkiness of the current foot models suffices, on the seraphim it looks a bit too skintight though.

 

Although I admit, I love that the models are aesthetically pleasing. It would bother me much more if I got Plastic FSM instead of true Sisters. Then the whole 'realism' debate. It's mini wargaming for crying out loud :D

Unless I missed something, nobody is even saying the armor ought to be realistic. After all, this is Warhammer 40k, where the primary use of tanks is to get your infantry close enough to the enemy to hit them with chainsaw swords. Real-world physics got murdered by the Rule of Cool a long time ago in 40k.

 

The only change the armor really needs is bit more bulk so that it looks like actual armor, and if at all possible the design should be even more over-the-top gothic than it is already.

[Azezel]

if at all possible the design should be even more over-the-top gothic than it is already.

 

I agree completely.

 

And we're in luck - Jess goodwin said he wanted to add scrollwork to the Sisters spaulders.

[Spacefrisian]

I have the feeling some stuff is overlooked.

 

-Marine is bigger than a Sister of battle (a lot) this makes his armour look bigger to.

-Constructionmethod of armour can make a difference to, the latest breastplates could stop a bullet and werent that heavy, this was achieved by a different construction method than just hammer a huge chunk of metal on it.

[The Holy Heretic]

So why aren't the Space Marines dashingly handsome Adonis-like figures with outlined musculature? Well, look at the Blood Angels, and - only joking. Really, Is suspect it is because men do not enjoy playing with "sexualized" versions of their own gender. Men being the dominant group in this hobby, and Space Marines begin the dominant army. When women outnumber men at Games Workshop HQ, we might see that change.

 

Space mareens is a sexualised version of the male gender. Enormous bulky armour to emphasize his indepence from and invulnerability to the world, enourmous fallic guns (can you say p***s on B&C?). Male identity and sexuality is defined by its dangerous destructive power, not beautiful features or chiseled abs. What generally makes most men uneasy, is when you apply the feminine aspect of 'beauty' to men, like bodybuilders and effeminate runway models - notice how eldar are widely regarded as a 'gay' army. So space marines are indeed the 40K equivalent of porn stars :lol:

[mougie]

Is it because the STC used for there armor designed it that way?

 

I think the SoB armor perfectly represents the imagery, and to a lesser degree the stat line, associated with them as far as the fluff goes.

 

SoB essentially use a stripped down variant of the SM power armor, what’s missing? Basically all the awesome high tech stuff that isn’t used in the rules. SM power armor has multiple spectrum sensors awesome targeting hook ups life support systems, and so on that if they were added to the rules would mean your average SM would be the one man army they are in the fluff. SoB power armor is just the armour stripped of all the cool bits and on a smaller scale. This would allow it to be more form fitting than SM armor. The issue of is it too form fitting? My opinion is yes, yes it is. Is that a problem? No because to make it scale proportionally the SM line would have to be redone to be even bigger. Also when SoB were release if they had the same power armor with female heads it would have been Conan the barbarian in power armor not women.

 

That covers my opinion on the "scale" image

 

My opinion on the visually design of the armor, perfection. A SM is seen as the faceless, eternal guardian of mankind ever present at the edges of space holding back the never ending alien attacks that threaten to wipe out the Imperium (why I don’t like bare heads on my marines). The SoB is the militant wing of the 40k church, Mother Teresa gunning mutants and anyone who isn’t devote to the emperor. It’s this contrast which justifies there armor design. SM = faceless, emotionless super human warrior who is so far beyond the average man as the emperor is beyond them. SoB = Perfection, they are ever present in the capitols of the Emperors worlds, they embody everything a citizen should be strong of will, faith, conviction, Beautiful to behold, at once soft and kind to the faithful (part of the adeptis hospitallus) but uncompromising to those who do not share there religious views. There armor has is ornate and over the top to reflect this.

 

Just my opinions.

 

tl;dr its matches the fluff but isn’t scaled to perfection.

[Azezel]

Is it because the STC used for there armor designed it that way?

 

No, STCs don't work quite like that. the Mechanicum don't have one big STC for 'Corset shaped Power Armour Mk Ib' or whatever.

 

They have many many hundreds of STCs which are aproved for combination. They have an STC for electro-motivated fibres, which they use to make the unders-suit. They have an STC for ceramite, which they use to make the armour plates. they have an STC for micro-fusion plants (not to mention STCs for all the componants of those plants) which they use to power the suit, etc.

 

The Mechanicus can pretty much make the armour in any style they want

 

SoB essentially use a stripped down variant of the SM power armor, what’s missing? Basically all the awesome high tech stuff that isn’t used in the rules. SM power armor has multiple spectrum sensors awesome targeting hook ups life support systems, and so on that if they were added to the rules would mean your average SM would be the one man army they are in the fluff. SoB power armor is just the armour stripped of all the cool bits and on a smaller scale.

 

Actually, Sororitas armour does incorperate life support, multi-spectrum vision, psycho-oculal buffering, you-name-it.

 

The only explicit inferiorities of sororitas armour are strength and connectivity. Sororitas armour lacks the strength-boost of Astartes armour (though nowhere does it say that Sororitas armour does not boost the users strength at all). In addition, Sororitas lack the Black Carapace, so they cannot wear their armour as naturally as an Astartes, nor benefit from the medical sensors and drug injectors which Astartes armour incorperates.