An important thing Logan Wings forget

[confused_gordy]

I've been looking round a few Logan wing lists and I have noted something which I feel needs to be pointed out.

 

First off who am I? Why are my opinions at least of some value?

 

Im Gordy, Ive been playing with Space Wolves since the release of the codex, and using a variant of the logan wing, exclusively. Ive been to 2 GTs in which I placed in the top 30. Im not the best player in the world but i have a good W/L/D.

 

Second off, my observation:

 

It seems 90% of Logan wing lists forget that wolf guard can be 10 models strong.

 

Why do people not do this?

 

Well Im not entirely sure, perhaps it is a fear of having all their eggs in one basket, perhaps it is the fear of lack of ability to threaten multiple units. But i feel both of these points pale into comparison compared to the reason to do this.

 

The reason to use at least one 10 man terminator unit with 2 heavy weapons:

 

Logan Grimnar!!!!

 

Lets look at logan. He is more than a land raider, he is dangerous in CC, he is easier to kill than a space marine captain with a storm shield, HE BUFFS HIS SQUAD!

 

Logan can make anything within 18inches benefit from +1 attack for two assault phases, he can give tank hunters, relentless, preferred enemy and fearless to his squad. Heck because of the FAQ he can do this in his enemies phase too!

 

Do you join a chaplain to a 10 man unit or a 5 man unit? Think of Logan as a chaplain

 

Do you join Lysander to a 10 man unit or a 5 man unit? Think of Logan as lysander too (only shooting buff i could think of)

 

And as you have a 10 man unit near by logan, when you need to use your extra attack buff, you are guaranteed to have bodies close by to benefit from it.

 

 

What to do with the terminators?

 

Personally I field my 10 man unit with 2 cyclone missile launchers, with tank hunters its like having a mobile lascannon dev squad. I use 2 storm shields (as I find that is usually enough to protect you from a MC for a turn, or absorb some heavy fire). I use 2 power fists and a chain fist. As I feel this is adequate high strength CC power and anti tank power, and allows for enough power weapons at init 4 to be a major wipe out threat to enemy units before the enemy power fists swing.

 

This unit is 455 + logan. But it single handedly can act as your holding ground force.

 

I challenge all you logan wing players who use 5 man units, to try one 10 man unit with logan, I am certain that you will be impressed with the results.

[Chodjinn]

the problem with a ten man squad + Logan is that they will be footslogging, always. I feel that Logan + squad in a Crusader is a much better use of him, get him to the front quickly and cause carnage.

[dswanick]

Actually I played your advice in a recent Apocalypse game at my LGS, well not exactly but close. My "Logan's Heroes" unit was 11 models strong tooling around in a LR Crusader. They were hard as nails. Second turn they were charged by two five-man BA terminator squads and annihilated them without loosing a man. All the firepower directed their way was just shrugged off. And then they went toe-to-toe with a Blodthirster and hoards of daemons vefore succumbing. The squads was a mix of teminator and power armor, giving me enough bodies and enough heavy armor to play games with the wounds allocations.

20000 Pts - Space Wolves Roster

HQ: Logan Grimnar, The Great Wolf (1#, 275 pts)

1 Logan Grimnar, The Great Wolf @ 275 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Belt of Russ; Terminator Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Wolftooth Necklace; Storm Bolter; The Axe Morkai; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Eternal Warrior; Independent Character; Living Legend; Stubborn; The High King; Saga of Majesty)

 

HQ: Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour (1#, 205 pts)

1 Wolf Lord in Terminator Armour @ 205 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armour; Belt of Russ; Storm Bolter; Wolf Claw; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Independent Character; Saga of the Warrior Born)

 

HQ: Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Terminator Armour (1#, 135 pts)

1 Wolf Guard Battle Leader in Terminator Armour @ 135 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armour; Melta Bombs; Storm Bolter; Power Fist; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Independent Character; Saga of the Beastslayer)

 

HQ: Rune Priest in Power Armour (1#, 175 pts)

1 Rune Priest in Power Armour @ 175 pts (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Runic Armour; Wolf Tail Talisman; Bolt Pistol; Runic Weapon; Master of Runes; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack; Independent Character; Psyker; Living Lightning; Tempest's Wrath)

 

Troops: Wolf Guard Pack (8#, 576 pts)

1 Wolf Guard Pack @ 576 pts (Wolf Guard in Power Armour; Wolf Guard in Power Armour; Wolf Guard in Power Armour; Wolf Guard in Power Armour; Wolf Guard in Power Armour; Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour; Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour; Land Raider Crusader)

1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack)

1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Power Fist x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack)

1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Frost Weapon x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack)

1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Bolt Pistol; Frost Weapon x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack)

1 Wolf Guard in Power Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Power Armour; Frost Weapon x1; Power Fist x1; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack)

1 Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armour; Power Weapon; Assault Cannon; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack)

1 Wolf Guard in Terminator Armour (Unit Type: Infantry; Terminator Armour; Storm Bolter; Frost Weapon; Acute Senses; And They Shall Know No Fear; Counter-attack)

1 Land Raider Crusader (Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank); Transport Capacity: 16 models; Access Points: 3; Frag Assault Launchers; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Multi-Melta; 2x Hurricane Bolters; Twin Linked Assault Cannon; Assault Vehicle; Power of the Machine Spirit)

 

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[Natanael]

A friend of mine plays his Loganwing very succesfully, and his backbone is the 10-man unit, all int TDA, footslogging. Then he has a lot of 5-man units (all TDA) backing him up, and tbh, there is not much that like his army. The amouth of krak missiles coming your way (4 of them with Tank Hunter) is quite scary, and closing in for the kill is just begging to be ripped apart. So I agree with you that ppl use their Loganwings kinda wrong if they load them up in LRCs and stuff. It is a foot slogging list, but it is really strong is played right.

 

- Natanael

[Wysten]

5 Man units often offer better direction of firepower, and often does not cost anymore then a block of 10 men. 2 5 man squads can shoot at two different targets while the 10 man squad has to direct all their firepower towards a single target. Considering the role of the missle is to often to bust light transports and to shake heavier armour. Missles are not reliable for killing, but provided they are stunned or lose weapons it's still doing it's intended role. So being able to blast two transports or focus fire on one is great flexablity not offered by the ten man formation.

 

Of course, teaming them up gives greater durabilty and means more damage must be taken before they are forced to make a leadership save, but then it really depends what you want to do with them.

 

Personally, using cyclones as the only long range threat is not enough, so often Long Fangs are taken to provide lots of cheap 25 point missles to pour on the foe, which means the cyclones will be put under less pressure to engage multiple targets. Because really, you are spending 73 for a single wound compared to 3 with better armour which you may or may not need, a power weapon which you will need and a storm bolter. Nice, but it's one guy in a whole squad. If they chose to rightfully fire at the long fangs, the termies just will get closer. Hehehe

[Natanael]

If you compare them one to one, well, then 5-man units are better. But it is a question of how the army works together. A single unit of 10, going with Logan for Tank Hunter makes all the differance in a list that only relies on missiles to take down armour. For pure Loganwing (all TDA) there is no such thing as Long Fangs and then you need the 4 S9 shots (well, it is still S8, but you get the idea) for LRs and heavier tanks.

 

- Natanael

[Spacefrisian]

10 men is useless you could as well make one termie with a sign "shoot me" cause it will be a prime target for heavy ap1 or 2 Blast weapons.

[Wysten]

If you compare them one to one, well, then 5-man units are better. But it is a question of how the army works together. A single unit of 10, going with Logan for Tank Hunter makes all the differance in a list that only relies on missiles to take down armour. For pure Loganwing (all TDA) there is no such thing as Long Fangs and then you need the 4 S9 shots (well, it is still S8, but you get the idea) for LRs and heavier tanks.

 

- Natanael

Then often you would find another source of Anti Tank. Cyclones are ideal for giving some range for your termies, but they should definately not be the only source of it. Termie squads are inefficent at providing long range firepower for their cost when you factor in the entire 10 man squad, there is only 2 men capable of engaging targets beyond 24 inches. It helps a lot more when you get closer, but by then the squad may have taken quite the pounding since it is essencally a death star. Logan and 10 termies (if they are all termies.) is hardly cheap.

 

I am one strong believer that pure termie is not the way forward. Grey Knights will very soon outclass us in that aspect and that our termies are all rounders, not great at everything. A bunch of longfangs with a lazcannon or two thrown in can probably put out a lot more firepower for cheap and allow for more wounds in general and for our more midfield oriented termies to get within their ideal range. Depending on the list small or single members of thunderwolf can also be added to provide a tough, desruptive body and the fear factor assoated with them allows them to get closer.

 

Just because we can run 100% termies, does not mean we should. Space Wolves are very much individals who fight how they are confortable. Wolf Guard on Thunder Wolf and perhaps even model the Long Fangs as Wolf Guard, or extremely veteran Long Fangs. Tried running them like that? Several small termie packs supported by Fist Thunder Wolf and Long Fangs?

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I ran the 10 man unit + Logan AND I threw in my TDA RP as well. My only gripe: s...l...o...w... Footslogging a squad this size across the table takes half the game, and once you arrive the squad/unit/vehicle/etc you where after is further away or has already been blown up by the Long Fang Pack you SHOULD be running. It's also a huge fire magnet, and while I would "daisy-chain" them across the table they still took a grip of fire ultimately depleting the squads resources.

 

I like the Drop Pod approach better myself. Here's why: at 1500pts. you can field four pods. Give two of them Deathwind Launchers for dropping down next to either objectives or on top of scoring units. These two come down first and cause some serious (hopefully) damage. Then the rest of the squad opens fire as wel, with a LF pack to back it up if and when needed. You now have a stronger board presence then you would with a painfully slow ten man unit threatening to eventually get there. Granted I do miss having two CML's in one squad, that desire gets filled by the LF's really easily.

 

I am not disagreeing with anything said here, and I think this kind of discussion will ultimately help the Logan Wing players develop their army into what they want it to be. Great thread Gordy!!

 

-R_P_R

[Natanael]

10 men is useless you could as well make one termie with a sign "shoot me" cause it will be a prime target for heavy ap1 or 2 Blast weapons.

 

Are you kidding me? Have you ever learned to spread out? Using that 2" coherency rule is key, as you might figure out if you give it like 2 sec of thought.

 

@ Wysten: Well, I agree with you that the all TDA approach is not the most competitive way of playing, but as I see it that is the Loganwing. Otherwise you might as well play mixed, 'cause that is way better. The thing is to get the Loganwing to work, and for that the 10 man squad is very important, since it is almost impossible to shift, and can destroy anything in close combat and most things at range, 48" and 24".

 

@ Rune_Priest: Yeah, it is slow, but that is also the way of the Loganwing. That said, the large unit is not so much for grabbing objectives in his deployment zone as it is controling the mid field. The smaller squads can use a run move from time to time to get closer, while the large squad moves up, killing as they go. A friend of mine and I both play Loganwing, he more then I do, and the key to that is the large squad, in every battle. No matter if it gets depleated, no VPs och KPs are awarded for killing 9/10, right?

 

Hope I didnt come of as too harsh. If so, I am sorry.

 

- Natanael

[Spacefrisian]

Are you kiddin...

 

Lash, Lascannon heavy units, Raming a tank on 1 side and this is just a start where spreading out can be used against you. Its not that hard to use that large number against you, you know. It just takes some clever thinking.

[confused_gordy]

5 man squads are more flexible and can be quicker yes.

 

However the 10 man squad is orders of magnitude more dangerous and durable. (as said before just consider the buff generation from logan, but not just with tank hunting cyclones, also consider how much more effective this unit is in cc) It is very difficult to cause 9 wounds to a unit, with one set of shooting, it is very easy to cause 6. which means your special weapons (or whatever you want to keep alive) are far more likely to stay alive for longer. This also means you can spend less in a squad, you need to have at least 2 power fists or their equivalent in a squad to make it effective against everything. in a 10 man unit you also only really need 2, again more storm shields are required in smaller squads, where as a big squad can rely on less (as heavy weapons are only really going to cause the same number of wounds against a big squad as a small)

 

As regards speed. you only need to be across the board by the end of the game (as one combat will be enough to remove the defenders), and as you shoot you will remove his effectiveness, where as, his shooting will be limited to removing ablative "cheap" terminators. 5 man squads do not have ablative wounds, each and every model is necessary to maintain combat effectiveness. a 10 man squad is still dangerous when reduced by 5 models.

 

In many cases you dont want to be across the board - in 1/3 of the missions having a big squad makes you more likely to not give away kil points. while maximizing your damage. in many cases you need a strong defensive element to hold your own objective, as the enemy will not doubt send a good chunk of theirs to remove you.

 

Long fangs do provide a similar long range functionality, however they are less durable and mobile (ever played against an eldar player who moves into the one blind spot on the table, not an issue when you can more 6 and still fire)

 

Another factor is mass wounding - firing 4 frags and 20 storm bolter shots causes a tonne of wounds and importantly these happen at the same time, risking sergeants and heavy weaponry.

 

As a logan wing, ever had a problem with big TH/SS terminator units? - a 10 man unit just takes preffered enemy, and +1 attack, and after a volley of fire and a charge, suddenly the most dangerous unit in the game has melted to between 3 and 0 models.

[Natanael]

Are you kiddin...

 

Lash, Lascannon heavy units, Raming a tank on 1 side and this is just a start where spreading out can be used against you. Its not that hard to use that large number against you, you know. It just takes some clever thinking.

 

I know. Might be our comp system, but we dont see much lash over here (kinda booring anyway, I think). The tank thing, yeah, sure. Still, that is not very common, since if you are that close to the large unit you have probably already ignored the smaller units and they are in your face already. It might all come down to tactics, but I still feel that one large unit is essential in Loganwing play, to keep that LR away as well as presenting a real threat to anything the enemy has, deathstars or whatev.

 

And Lascannon heavy units? I've never been up against anything that can be classifed as Lascannon heavy. It is just too bad for its points cost.

 

- Nat

[Wysten]

10 men is useless you could as well make one termie with a sign "shoot me" cause it will be a prime target for heavy ap1 or 2 Blast weapons.

 

Are you kidding me? Have you ever learned to spread out? Using that 2" coherency rule is key, as you might figure out if you give it like 2 sec of thought.

 

@ Wysten: Well, I agree with you that the all TDA approach is not the most competitive way of playing, but as I see it that is the Loganwing. Otherwise you might as well play mixed, 'cause that is way better. The thing is to get the Loganwing to work, and for that the 10 man squad is very important, since it is almost impossible to shift, and can destroy anything in close combat and most things at range, 48" and 24".

 

@ Rune_Priest: Yeah, it is slow, but that is also the way of the Loganwing. That said, the large unit is not so much for grabbing objectives in his deployment zone as it is controling the mid field. The smaller squads can use a run move from time to time to get closer, while the large squad moves up, killing as they go. A friend of mine and I both play Loganwing, he more then I do, and the key to that is the large squad, in every battle. No matter if it gets depleated, no VPs och KPs are awarded for killing 9/10, right?

 

Hope I didnt come of as too harsh. If so, I am sorry.

 

- Natanael

 

Well, I guess thats true, aside from rather then mixed, you got a pretty bulky wolf lord making your troops rock solid mini rocks, while the thunder wolf rip into units and other targets and the Long Fangs. Though I am obtaining a better understanding of the 10 man squad, more men means more filler, which means more wounds the squad can afford to take before they lose the special weapons. Spcical weapons is often what do the real killing and the chainfist is a special weapon compared to a power weapon. One hit kills? Beautiful.

 

Though, I imagine a long fang squad lead by Logan would also be pretty tough and reach out across the board. Relentless, 3 wounds protected by +2 armour means that nothing is safe. Easpically if you throw in a few little distractions here and there to misguide them from focusing on them. Who do you shoot? The 10 man that will crush you when they impact or the 7 Man squad that is shooting at you right now? Or those thunder wolf over there that rival the toughness of a termie and have a really powerful punch? Those interesting mind games is a terror tactic that is suitable when hunting the dreaded foe.

 

And no worries, debates are always interesting. It's these talks that encourage growth.

[Natanael]

Yep. I have all that you said in your post available to play with, but I dont, since it would be kinda booring to rip enemies apart with just the strength of your list. The Loganpod (6 LFs with MMs, WG and Logan) is a real pain to be up against, tough. A friend of mine plays it a lot, and I just hate it. I played a game some time ago with 3 Pods filled with TDA WGs and logan, with the rest of the army made up of TWC. It was kinda brutal, really, and not much fun to play. Not so good at objectives, but very good at killing.

 

This thread however is for Loganwings, so I shall not go further OT :cuss

 

- Natanael

[Wysten]

Eh? Depends really. In comp tourneys obivously I would mess around a little, but I find it very hard to pull my punches. Though when it comes to playing with friends, a somewhat different matter. Just because I want to build a hard list does not mean I like whipping it out when with friends, it just means when I want to bring a pretty elite army to the table the wolf guard with wolfguard on thunder wolf and wolfguard with missles and Lascannons (counts as long fangs, or just more wolf guard on wolf back) will always be there to provide the epic hunt.

 

To me, it's still all Loganwing, the termies are the rock of this army and the focus, just it does not make sense to me that one of the tactically smart and respected warriors in the entire imperium would just all don termie armour and bastically get slowly picked apart. Does not really seem all that fluffy at all without the support of say, speeders, Thunder Wolf and so fourth to all come together and produce a visally and tactically stunning army.

 

Then when I play my friends, take out the Thunder Wolf and put some power armoured wolf guard and pod in a entire wolf guard army. Hehehe.

[Tsavong Lah]

Though, I imagine a long fang squad lead by Logan would also be pretty tough and reach out across the board. Relentless, 3 wounds protected by +2 armour means that nothing is safe.

 

Yeah, recently I've been toying with an idea for my mixed Logan list. Alongside my two WGTDA packs in Drop Pods, one GH pack in a Drop Pod, and two Grey Hunter packs in Rhinos, plus support stuff, I'd run:

 

Long Fangs

5 Plasma Cannons

Wolf Guard Pack Leader

Logan Grimnar

Drop Pod

 

I thought about adding a Multimelta in there for tank-busting, but I'm a big fan of the versatility that comes with being able to attach Logan to several different squads depending on the enemy. If I add the Multimelta I'll be less inclined to put Logan somewhere else and place that Long Fang pack in a long-range support role when appropriate, because I'll feel like I've wasted a heavy weapon option. But for those times when I decide to drop this pack with Logan near the front lines, the extra tank-busting firepower looks mighty nice.

 

I'll have to test things out both ways and see what happens.

[Wildfire]

Does anyone ever use Logan in a mixed list? The times I've toyed with lists including him, I vastly prefered a mix of units over all TDA/LR.

[LPetersson]

I've been looking round a few Logan wing lists and I have noted something which I feel needs to be pointed out.

 

Second off, my observation:

 

It seems 90% of Logan wing lists forget that wolf guard can be 10 models strong.

 

Why do people not do this?

 

As others have pointed out, flexibility/versatility.

 

I tend to have 4 5 man squads, one sniper dread and one flamer dread. This gives me plenty of AT while giving the enemy plenty of targets.

 

If I used 3 squads of 5/5/10 then suddenly I'd have one very big target and in objective games I'd have a harder time getting the enemy off them.

 

Also, in my opinion a Logan's Heroes list should only have TDA, Dreads and LRs in it. Otherwise you're just running a mixed list.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Wow, I was just considering doing this but feared the "all eggs in one basket" sentiment. My list had them slogging and backed up with three GH DP packs, scout unit and 2xlongfangs, so not a pure logan wing. Just a logan unit. Thanks for the insight Gordy.

[wolfpack]

While I certainly have enough WG in TDA to create a complete logan wing and field 6 10 man squads...and after playing a couple of short games with 1k and 1.5K lists...I have found that it all boils down to the dice...screw the math hammer...it doesn't matter...

 

THE DICE decide what take a hit and damage not the players...so it is a possiblity that the squad survives just as well as a possibility that the squad wipes...is a ten man squad a deathstar?...you bet...does it get shot at like a lone deer at a huntin ranch?...bet yer bumm...does it wipe?...well it's happened to me twice...(footsloggin is fine for small tables but sucks very much bad on large area tables)...

 

so what to do??...hmmm...I still like the 10 man squad for it's durabilty and playability...even though they tend to get shot at ALOT...there is the possibility that they will get to where you want them...and I like the five to six man for the ability to put them in transports and move in fast so here's what I propose...of course this list all depeneds on the size of the battle your gonna fight...I favor and have had some fair success with these tactics

 

Put two 5 man squads with asscans in DPs

a ten man as a footsloggin DS with CMLs to take and hold objectives, lay down cover fire with the missles and just scare yer opponoent...

a ten man with flamer and asscan with Logan for an all around clean yer clock unit, take and hold as necessary or just cause yer opponent to twitch a bit

and two other five mans with assorted power weaps and TH/SS combos in LRs as fire control/magnets...oh these also tend to be able to hit multiple targets as only one of the LRs is considered a designated trans thus a part of the unit while the other would be a HS choice which just happens to be transporting a five man squad...

 

use the DPs to engage the enemy at his lines...the CMLs to keep his head down while yer sloggin across the field with Logan and his squad on one flank or the other using the asscan to hit shoot at available targets and taking advantage of all rending results as often as possible while the two LRs full of TDA run back up or outflankin the enemy and tying up his heavier elements...

lends to a bit of confusion on yer opponents part as he's not sure where to shoot first...also tends to to get to grips fairly well right off so he's forced to deal with immediate threats while yer two larger squads can pick and choose their targets...while the LRs are drawin fire and their contents are assaulting flanks...and laying down a nice ap1 fire blanket themselves...

and let us not forget the Machine spirit which CAN split fire at bs3...while not always hitting the possibility of scoring that crucial hit still exists...after all instant kill is instant kill no matter how it's achieved