Hybrid BA Lists

[syypher]

The dreaded hybrid BA list and why or why not it fails.

 

This thread is to discuss the opinions and debate whether or not it is viable to hybridize a Blood Angels list and still run with the "competitive" big boys like SW and IG's.

 

 

Okay, so anyone who plays BA and reads threads, forum posts, strategies, tacticas, or just plays the game at a local game shop can tell you that a majority of the "think tank" out there is that hybrid BA lists are fail. I have read a few blogs tearing up hybrid BA lists or just saying it isn't what you should be taking to anything you want to truely compete in. Now a lot of the statistics back this up with a majority of lists that score fairly high in tournaments leaning towards heavy Mech BA lists or heavy DoA/Jump lists. Let's look at these two competitively norm army play styles.

 

Mech BA spams the crap out of Razorbacks, abuse the point reduction of them and take a special weapon, abuse fast speed with terrain and just plain out maneuvers almost everyone out there, and makes it hard for opponents to really declare a true threat anywhere. It focuses a lot on target saturation and minimizes what amount lost when they opponent takes down a vehicle. It also primarily plays as a defensive BA list and is most of the time not wanting to get into CC.

 

DoA/Jump lists aim at controlling your opponents movements and flow of their "game." You stop shooty armies from...well, shooting in the early turns of the game, at least denying them 1 turn of shooting and you DS in and you shoot first. You can control deathstars/scary squads eb and flow by getting the first charge with your VV. Vanguards with SS and a priest nearby will survive for at least a turn and be able receive assault backup in the next turn via RAS squads that dropped nearby. These lists usually want to jump into CC and has a nice mix of anti-AV jump infantry (HG with melta-spam) and CC specialists (Vanguards.)

 

 

With these two lists you have 2 very nice worlds. That's one of the beauties I see in the BA codex that we can play 2 almost completely different play styles and still compete. Something I have yet to be successful with my Tyranids list when I play them...haha...

 

 

One of the things I've read in a great blog (http://synaps3.blogspot.com/) was the more and more competitive you get the more "all-comers" the list becomes. This makes sense as once paper meets its scissors or scissors meets it's rock it's over. You take a beating and are so far behind it's almost impossible to catch up. I'm sure we have all been in the receiving or giving end of a game where it was very one sided not primarily because of the army or rolls but because of the lists that were taken. A great example of this was when my friend's foot slogging Orc list went against my friends Chaos SM list with 2x Lash Daemons and 6 or so Obliterators. Ouch. He was paper and the Chaos SM player was definitely a big pair of grown-up scissors.

 

There is mention that lists such as one of the ones Stelek took to one of the tournaments. (just as an example now, I'm not saying he is the best player ever or anything, just he had a nice well rounded list that could handle multiple situations) It was SW with scouts to handle backfield heavies such as Devastators etc. His own Devs to handle light/medium AV and his midfield blockers to handle close CC that should threaten his backfield or his vehicles. Many of the top lists are well-round, built to answer many questions and flexible.

 

With this said all-comers list that can adjust to a variety of armies usually end up on top. Armies that are built with certain things in mind such as: How will I deal with heavy CC? What if I face multiple AV13 /14 vehicles? Do I have a plan with my list to handle deathstar of 600+ points that has a lot of killing force? Is there a way I can handle heavy firepower from the back field? I'm sure a list like my friends foot slogging Orc list can handle a few of these questions with ease, others...not so much.

 

 

What are everyones thoughts on a hybrid list? A hybrid list that comes to mind would be something along the lines of...

 

2-3 Baal Predators with Flamestorm Cannons

3-4 Razorbacks with TL AsC (5 RAS + Melta)

1 HG 4 Melta squad in a Drop Pod as the Anti-AV 13/14

1 10 man VV Squads to counter charge/protect the vehicles should anything get too close. Keep behind vehicles if there are any backfield threats. If the opponent is Devastator spamming then you choose to DS them in the back field to stop their plans.

1-2 Heavy Predator AC/HB or Heavy Dred Dual TL AC's

 

 

You have a well rounded force that can handle light AV, medium AV, heavy AV, has great anti-horde fire, has a great rate of fire to drown heavy Deathstar lists with saves and being BA has the advantage of maneuverability to make "kiting" Deathstars even easier and VV as options to counter charge heavy CC lists coming in to threaten your vehicles or they can be combat squaded and 5-10 can DS to take out backfield threats.

 

 

Now I have no experience with a list like this nor am I an expert about hybrid BA lists. These are just some thoughts thrown out there to spark some discussion on whether or not BA can play succesfully away from the norm of being "mech" BA or "DoA" BA. To see if there is a door to a hybrid more all-comers and well-rounded list.

 

Thoughts?

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

I would think the 'best' hybrid list combines our awesome speed and Jump troops, with some predators and a big squad of Devastators in the Backfield.

 

A list I have in mind for example is:

 

DoA part:

- A good core of jumpy troops (no DC, but using VV, HG and 2-3 big RAS squads)

- At least 2 Priests

- A librarian, or maybe 2, for Shield.

 

Support part:

- 1/2 Furioso Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods

- 1/2 Baal Predators with AssCans

- 1/2 Auto/Las Preds

- 1 big Devastator Squad (to combat squad)

 

The tactic here really is: overwhelm and control. You make sure you have enough Pods that all your Furioso's come in turn 1. That are some dangerous Dreads in the face of the enemy they have to deal with immediately. Your Predators then roll up under cover fire of your Devastators and your enemy already has way too much to handle against them turn 1. Then turn 2, your DoA force comes in where you need it. Where that is depends entirely on what your enemy did to respond to your first turn.

 

The charm of this army, is that it combines the defensive play of Mech BA with the aggressive one of DoA lists. You play your first turn very defensively, but make sure you are ready for an all out attack the moment your DoA troops come in! It feels a bit like snapping a trap around your opponent. Giving him 1/2 turns in which he can do what he wants.. and then you control the flow of battle.

 

Now.. this army will possibly come out at 2500 or more points and that really is the major issue BA has. We have a hard time making an all-comers list on normal tournament point levels, but once we have a chance to throw in all our toys we become a very scary opponent with a good specialized unit for anything the enemy throws at us.

[Gv0zD]

Now.. this army will possibly come out at 2500 or more points and that really is the major issue BA has. We have a hard time making an all-comers list on normal tournament point levels, but once we have a chance to throw in all our toys we become a very scary opponent with a good specialized unit for anything the enemy throws at us.

That's one of the major setbacks. Hybrid list would work well only with approx 2000 pts list and more. In smaller games taking either DoA or mech seems more reasonable. I think that BA could run hybrid lists as well as the vanilla SM, since BA have mostly the same units (not considering BA specific ones). But the points we pay for them limit the usefulness of hybrid lists. 

 

As for my personal opinion on the tactics of hybrid lists, I think it still should be more defensive. Having enough AT-fire and vehicles is good, but then Jumpy units are left alone, and I doubt that HG and VV, dropped closer to the enemy would survive long enough without the aid of RAS in later turns. Thus I think they should be used as counter-attackers, to protect tanks and vehicles. If played this way, IMHO BA turn to vanilla marines. 

 

Not to mention that if taking hybrid list one limits the army's saturation with bodies and armor, so that infantry wouldn't be able to hold in CC or under fire, and a few vehicles would die pretty soon. However it could be fixed with additional units (which rises the cost of the list).

 

In conclusion, the less points you have, the less flexible and optimized hybrid list is.

 

Just my thoughts.

[JamesI]

I've done well running a hybrid list at 1850. 2 big RAS, 1 small RAS in a Razorback. 2 Vindicators. 1 Pred or Devs depending on mood. 1 Small Vanguard. attack bikes. Tried it in 2 tournaments. 1 I got toasted right after the BA dex came out, the second I took second place.

 

I'm going to start trying a more pure DoA/jumpy list with some dev/attack bike support. I'll let you know which I feel was more effective.