Stazbumpa Posted December 10, 2010 Share Posted December 10, 2010 First go at this, and yes the colour scheme is possibly rubbish. Before you all shout "zomg!! black and white marines!!" at me, I'm still working on that bit but have no idea what to compliment the white parts with and I don't want pure white space marines either. Besides, the white bits would have markings on them anyway its just I haven't decided what they will be or what the chapter badge is yet. Answers on a postcard please :( [img; background-image:url(http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/hq2.gif); background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 8px 2px; padding: 12px 8px 12px 8px; border: 1px solid #DDD; margin-left: 0 auto; text-align: left; color: #fff; text-indent:50px; font-size:130%; width:50%;">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Stazbumpa/wtmk6tac.jpg[/img] The Age of Apostasy was a period of bloodshed and terror that blighted the early part of the 36th millennium. In the aftermath of the carnage came the 22nd founding of the Adeptus Astartes and that founding saw the creation of the White Tigers chapter. Sired from the lineage of Primarch Rogal Dorn and the mighty Imperial Fists, the initial contingent of marines was lead by some of the most battle hardened veterans from both the Imperial and Crimson Fist chapters. These warriors became the first chapter master and company captains, training the new recruits and forging them into the fighting force that only a space marine chapter can be. As the chapter matured and gained battle honours, more marines from the chapters home world were promoted to senior positions, gradually replacing their battle brothers from their parent chapters and at the same time bringing the character and culture of their home world to the White Tigers. Unlike some chapters, the White Tigers history has been fairly well documented. Engagements with enemy forces and details of campaigns are regularly forwarded to the Adeptus Munitorum and gene-seed tithes arrive on time. Their own records on their home world are meticulously detailed and worlds where the White Tigers have been seen in action, or where they have fought alongside Imperial Guard regiments or Planetary Defence troops, all paint a similar picture of these space marines: utterly determined and unwavering in their objectives, and second to none in their tactical ability and martial prowess. And yet there is more to these accounts than simple glorification of deeds. They speak of humility and honour, and of self sacrifice that underlines quite clearly their position as defenders of humanity. The White Tigers follow the example of their Primarch and will fight to the death to defend the defenceless. As space marines they are naturally respected but they are also respectful where it is due, particularly of ordinary soldiers who show bravery or prove themselves able commanders. Depending on their role in a conflict, the White Tigers can occasionally be found amongst the troops on the eve of battle and their presence can boost morale considerably. Company Chaplains have been known to lead prayers before an engagement, or give a rousing pre-battle speech that will steel the regular soldiers resolve and inspire them. The manner of the White Tigers is one of quiet confidence, focused yet observing all. They are imposing yet are known to engage with others, however anyone who converses with them must be mindful of etiquette. This demeanour is quite apart from the aloofness and arrogance displayed by some chapters, or the borderline psychotic nature of others, and has endeared them to millions of ordinary soldiers and millions more citizens of Imperial worlds. On the battlefield they display a slightly unnerving appearance of calm where they move with precision and purpose, a disciplined flurry of blades and hail of bolter shells. The fighting power and spirit of the Tigers has made them a name to be feared amongst their enemies, even grudgingly respected (Ork warboss Gruk Teefsmasha's reputed last words were "yoos boyz iz 'ard" before being decapitated). “Study strategy over the years and achieve the spirit of the warrior. Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men.” - Rhetoricus, The Book of Five Spheres Oyashima is one of 2 inhabitable worlds in the 5 planet Kyoku system. There are 4 main continents and a myriad of islands that surround these. The land is a mixture of dense forest areas, high mountain ranges and vast grasslands, and most of it is unspoiled given the size of the planet and comparatively low population. Society is feudal, black powder is utilised but not widespread and the people observe a vertical hierarchical system split into peasants, artisans, merchants and a warrior caste. The warrior caste are firmly at the top of the hierarchy and the peasants very much at the bottom, and it this warrior caste that brought the newly founded White Tigers to this world. A plethora of warlords control tracts of land on the continents, some controlling an island or chain of islands. These are effectively petty kingdoms, and there is much cause for conflict over vital farming areas and mineral deposits. This has seen, to a greater or lesser extent, what can be best described as a global civil war although the common man on Oyashima has largely been left out of the worst of the fighting. While they are somewhat leaned on, the peasant class does not suffer outright oppression, though rare examples do exist. One reason for their relative safety is that oppression can result in bankruptcy for the offending clan as disgruntled farmers up stakes and move to the employ of a neighbouring fief or, though far less common an occurrence, there is the spectacle of a lord returning from campaign to find that in his absence a full scale peasants revolt has taken place and the unwashed masses are now encamped in his own castle with the ringleaders investigating the finer aspects of castle living in his personal chambers. One commentator wryly put it as "the low oppressing the high". The main reason, however, is that inflicting wanton cruelty on the unarmed peasants is neither brave nor honourable for a warrior society that has been built on these two principals. "The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things." - Rhetoricus, The Book of Five Spheres The fairly constant warfare on Oyashima breeds warriors that are both proficient at arms and loyal to the point of death. A lord will command clans that are bound to him by blood or oath and these clans will supply warriors for his armies who will fight alongside his own clans warriors. The fortunes of the clans are inextricably linked to that of their master, and this cements bonds of loyalty that cannot easily be broken. Good service is rewarded well, fiefdoms can be granted to clans or individual warriors, and prowess in battle is valued very highly indeed. In fact, the incessant warfare is one way the common peasant may break free of the place in society that his birth ordained him. A peasant may enter the ranks of the "Light Foot" militia that are often pressed into service by a local lord, and good service can lead to a permanent place in the warrior caste where they can thrive. The vertical social ladder can be scaled by those with the skill and drive to succeed. Settlements on Oyashima range from tiny hamlets to reasonably sized cities. The largest city is Nara, noted for its many temples and garden areas. It is in the mountains behind the city that the White Tigers have their fortress monastery. The chapter is named after the creatures that stalk these mountains, vicious yet regal looking beasts that often stand taller at the shoulder than a space marine. Combat Doctrine "You win battles by knowing the enemy's timing, and using a timing which the enemy does not expect." - Rhetoricus, The Book of Five Spheres http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Stazbumpa/wtcapt.jpg The White Tigers follow the doctrine of their Primarch to some degree in that they are skilled in attacking fixed positions and city fighting. Their other major strengths are their proficiency in close quarter battle and, crucially, their ability seek and understand an overview of the engagements they are involved in and their place in it, rather than pursuing their own agenda. Because of this the White Tigers have garnered a reputation for getting things done effectively and efficiently either on their own or by expertly directing supporting Planetary Defence or Imperial Guard regiments to maximum effect and with minimal casualties. Like any other chapter, the teachings of Guilleman are required study but in addition to this they utilise the collective wisdom of the many war treatise penned on their home world, and more specifically the ancient writings of Imperial Fist brother Rhetoricus in his seminal work "The Book of Five Spheres". This text has long been revered by the Imperial Fists, and the White Tigers found it complimented the warrior ethic of their recruits quite perfectly. “The wise warrior plans out his actions meticulously.” - Rhetoricus, The Book of Five Spheres The battle brothers of the White Tigers will always be found in the vanguard of any campaign or assault, always eager to be the first into battle. However, this belies a strong tactical awareness and strict discipline of planning techniques. Scouts, whether locally sourced or the White Tigers own, will always be employed to reconnoitre enemy positions and relay vital information about their adversaries strength and disposition back to the company leadership. Where possible, false information is fed back to the enemy by double agents, or by other means of deception, in order to obfuscate the enemy or indeed draw them into a pointless attack where they can be ambushed and destroyed. When the order to strike is given it is done in the full knowledge that the maximum amount of force is being applied to the enemies weakest point. “The craftsman, in his work, must comprehend measurements and design, and have a mastery of each of the tools at his disposal. In the same way, the warrior must comprehend tactics and strategy, and master each of the weapons in his arsenal." - Rhetoricus, The Book of Five Spheres The White Tigers are a chapter that can operate equally well alone or as part of a bigger fighting structure in which they are only one part. Units that find themselves fighting with the White Tigers will not end up as pawns sacrificed to the enemy guns, but rather operating as part of a extensively researched and fully prepared battle plan. Commanders will be consulted to see what strengths their troops can lend to the operation and briefed on what part they and their men will play. Whilst the victories of the chapter are much in evidence, the White Tigers combat doctrine has often ensured a successful tactical retreat in the event of a less than successful attack. Whilst the Tigers are fully aware of the tactical merits of a well ordered fighting withdrawal, such actions are often actually an extension of the battle going against the Imperial forces and the White Tigers stubbornly refusing to leave the field. Many an ordinary guardsman owes his life to the tenacity and honour of White Tigers space marines fighting a rearguard action, as do many more civilians, and defeat has been turned into victory on numerous occasions as the enemy crash against the immovable object that is the White Tigers space marines who, and it would appear sometimes by sheer bloody mindedness alone, buy the other retreating Imperial troops enough time to regroup and counter attack. Whilst land based assault warfare is known as the Tigers forte, that is not to say that they are in any way deficient in the other aspects of space marine deployment. Orbital attacks using drop pods, armoured assault with mechanized infantry support and lightning attacks with Thunderhawk gunships are all very much part of the White Tigers repertoire, just as they are with many other chapters of the Adeptus Astartes. Organisation "In battle, if you make your opponent flinch, you have already won." - Rhetoricus, The Book of Five Spheres The White Tigers are organised according to Guilleman's Codex, minor deviations aside. When a force is mobilized for war a contingent of scouts will always be attached, as will a detachment of First Company veterans. The clan structure of Oyashima is visible within the chapter organisation and for the most part squads will contain marines recruited from the same clan. This helps ensure that the same loyalty to the clan shown by the warrior houses is carried over into the chapter by default; squads are effectively family members fighting together. The clan livery of squad members will be displayed, winning honour for both themselves and their families back on their home world. The highly mobile chapter fleet is in constant readiness to respond to any calls for aid, and White Tigers patrol vessels are often sighted in neighbouring systems searching for pirates or alien incursions. Many times has the timely appearance of a patrol craft and its squad of marines provided an embattled planetary governor with all the help he needed to quell a rebellion or assist his own troops with their objectives. Beliefs "The Emperor commands us. Dorn guides us. Honour shields us. Fear our Name, for it is vengeance." - Rhetoricus, The Book of Five Spheres Like most other space marine chapters, the White Tigers revere the Emperor as the saviour of mankind and the greatest man that ever lived, but a man nonetheless. The White Tigers not only give reverence to their Primarch, Rogal Dorn, but also to the other Primarchs. The warrior clans respect valour, martial prowess and honour, and the White Tigers who recruit from them are no different. The Oyashima practise of ancestor worship also fits nicely into this practise of honouring the Emperor and Primarchs, as well as their veneration of the heroes of old and their deeds.Whilst the White Tigers are very spiritual, they are also pragmatic and, partly due to the inherited warrior culture culture of their home world, have their feet firmly planted in the here and now. For example, the techno-mysticism and mech-babble of the Adeptus Mechanicus was somewhat troublesome when the first Apprenta of the White Tigers went to Mars to learn their craft. Because of this most Techmarine training is now done "in house" at the Tigers own forge with the ancient knowledge having been passed down since the chapters founding, and it is largely successful. Promising Apprenta who are marked for senior positions in the forge will still be sent to study under the Cult Mechanicus on Mars and, in front of a Techno Magi at least, they will recite the correct liturgies to the Machine God. It is rumoured that this is a source of mild annoyance for the Adepts on Mars, however it cannot be said that the White Tigers Techmarines make for bad students. “Generally speaking, the Way of the warrior is resolute acceptance of death.” - Rhetoricus, The Book of Five Spheres The above sentence encapsulates utterly the world of the warrior not only in the meaning of the words, but also in the brevity of the sentence. It also characterises, in a nutshell, the warrior clansmen of Oyashima. To the uninitiated, these warriors appear to charge headlong into battle with no thought for their own safety, willing to die at the word of their lord. As one Imperial scholar wrote, "they are crazy to die". The truth is that the warriors of Oyashima display a calm detachment from death. They do not obsess over death, they instead contemplate it, they face it, and they ultimately defeat the fear it holds. In doing so they gain the freedom of thought and action that is required to face the terror of war and perform their duty without hesitation. An Oyashima warrior will not shy away from death if the situation requires it, however they do not throw their lives away unnecessarily or on a whim. This mindset is by no means exclusive to these warrior houses, after all it is an attitude that is par the course for the Adeptus Astartes. The point is that this mindset is one that is manifest by the ordinary warrior men that the chapter draw their recruits from, and because it is instilled from an early age it is a natural platform from which the White Tigers can recruit and build upon very successfully. The other side to the warrior clan ethic is that they are very much cultured. They are taught that though a warrior is trained to destroy, they must also learn to create. Oyashima warriors are fine artists, sculptors, poets and writers. Their culture strives for perfection in all that they do, be it the art of death or the art of creating beauty. Against the backdrop of the rigid feudal hierarchy, this outlet is one way that the warrior retainers can express themselves in a manner other than killing someone. The White Tigers are very much a part of this culture, and the brother marines have produced some of the greatest works on their home world. Gene-seed "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first." - Rhetoricus, The Book of Five Spheres The White Tigers are a successor to the Imperial Fists and share their gene-seed. Like the Fists, the Betcher's Gland and Sus-An Membrane is missing from the list of implants the recruit must receive. Also, again like the Imperial Fists, the White Tigers are tenacious and unflinching, some would say stubborn. The warrior culture of their home world teaches that no warrior should die with his back to the enemy, and the White Tigers fight and die by this ethic despite their usual tactical fluidity and reasoning. While they share the Imperial Fists dislike of personal failure they do not share their inclination to self-flagellation. This Imperial Fist genetic trait is present at its core, but has been somewhat tempered by the culture of the White Tigers home world and manifests itself as what can be best termed supreme self sacrifice. A space marine of the White Tigers will always put himself in harms way first, something that the soldiers who have fought alongside the Tigers have found both inspiring and life saving. A marine who feels he has failed will take personal responsibility for it and try to make amends, even going as far to sell his life in a useful way to regain his honour.This is partly the reason why the White Tigers are said to be the last to leave the field, they will take responsibility for any setbacks during a firefight and if the order to retreat is given they will almost singlehandedly attempt to secure the safe withdrawal of as many friendly forces as possible. "Just as one man can beat ten, so a hundred men can beat a thousand, and a thousand can beat ten thousand. In my strategy, one man is the same as ten thousand, so this strategy is the complete warrior's craft" - Rethoricus, The Book of Five Spheres The clan warriors of the Tigers home world begin their physical and mental training from around the age of four or five Terran years. Maturity, insofar as being a retainer is concerned, occurs around the age of twelve or thirteen by which time the young warrior will have participated in his first armed encounter, usually a battle. The chapter's 10th company recruitment sergeants maintain a large number of contacts in the various clans who will pass leads on about promising young retainers so that their career can be secretly monitored and their abilities assessed over the next few months. If he is deemed suitable then the family will recieve an unexpected but welcome visit from a 10th company sergeant and the boy warrior will be taken for genetic and mental suitability testing. Thanks to the early instilling of the Oyashima warrior ethic there is a very high pass rate amongst the potential recruits in the mental fortitude tests. Should the recruit pass the testing stage then he will be accepted as a neophyte for implantation and training in the Scout company. If the recruit fails the testing stage then he will be offered a choice of returning to his clan or remaining and being trained as a chapter retainer. It is a free choice and those who choose to return to their clan suffer no shame, in fact it is considered an honour and the mark of a great retainer to have been chosen for the tests in the first place. The boys who choose to remain with the chapter are similarly honoured as they will be retainers to the greatest clan on Oyashima, the White Tigers themselves. Family and clan bonds are the glue of Oyashimas warrior society, bonds that even being a space marine can only dilute but never break. In respect of this, and the fact that the marines fight under their own clan colours as well as those of the chapter, the marines and chapter retainers are permitted to mingle with the population of their home world, duties permitting of course, and this usually takes the form of visits to their clan and families for a period. The warfare on Oyashima continues, of course, and both the marines and retainers of the White Tigers are forbidden from participating in any action with which their clan is involved. Their family bonds, strong as they are, do not eclipse their loyalty to the chapter and, furthermore, for a space marine to be involved in the regular fighting on Oyashima would severely upset the balance of power on this world and also cause rifts in the chapter as the marines that fight as brothers in the White Tigers can often be from families that are at war. Battlecry The chapter battle cry is simply one marine yelling the chapter name in the native tongue of Oyashima to which the reply is a roaring shout from his brothers. Ok, that's it for the moment. There is a very clear theme with this IA, but I've tried to avoid being too overt with it. C&C happily taken, just want to know what you guys think and whether this has the beginings of something useful or has been a colossal waste of time :P PS: Do "space marines" and "chapters" require capital letters in each instance of their use? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/216824-ia-white-tigers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 I'm sorry, Staz. Why does your chapter have no flaws? It seems like in everything they do, they succeed. While that's fine for GW to write (as its GW) it makes for a cool but ultimately uninteresting character. The White Tigers are cool. It seems like they have common sense, unlike most of the Imperium. But that doesn't make them interesting. That makes them cool. Close to what you should be aiming for, but not completely on the mark. I also had a minor scruple with the 'only send the best techmarines for further training on Mars'. Either they go or they don't. Besides, it seemed like it was an excuse to make them awesome, especially with the whole 'it cannot be said that the White Tigers Techmarines make for bad students' line. That was ridiculus. I suggest that they simply go to Mars as a normal chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/216824-ia-white-tigers/#findComment-2586445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 Wo-hoo, fresh meat I can torture... :lol: And there was once a black and white marine... Ok, ok. Now on the more serious C&C. Engagements with enemy forces and details of campaigns are regularly forwarded to the Adeptus Munitorum and gene-seed tithes arrive on time. - Departmento Munitorum. It's sub-branch of Adeptus Administratum and it's purpose is the general administration, supply and command of the Imperial Guard. Thus, I don't quite understand the need for the battle-reports, since the Astartes and Imperial Guard are two different and independent organisations. ... worlds where the White Tigers have been seen in action, or where they have fought alongside Imperial Guard regiments or Planetary Defence troops, all paint a similar picture of these space marines: utterly determined and unwavering in their objectives, and second to none in their tactical ability and martial prowess. And yet there is more to these accounts than simple glorification of deeds. They speak of humility and honour, and of self sacrifice that underlines quite clearly their position as defenders of humanity. The White Tigers follow the example of their Primarch and will fight to the death to defend the defenceless. Well, of course. They penned these reports by themself. Where possible, false information is fed back to the enemy by double agents, or by other means of deception, in order to obfuscate the enemy or indeed draw them into a pointless attack where they can be ambushed and destroyed. Given the nature of enemies the Imperium must face, I doubt there will be place for double-agents at all. For example, the techno-mysticism and mech-babble of the Adeptus Mechanicus was somewhat troublesome when the first Apprenta of the White Tigers went to Mars to learn their craft. Because of this most Techmarine training is now done "in house" at the Tigers own forge with the ancient knowledge having been passed down since the chapters founding, and it is largely successful. Isn't this a hypocrisy, though? The ancient knowledge you are waving around is the same teaching, which is passed on to techmarine-adepts during their training on the Mars. +++ Overall, I have to agree with DAT, you took the same approach as the author of IA: Ultramarines. What you did here, is the description of how awesome your marines are. This approach is not wrong nor good, but it simply doesn't give your Chapter much of character. Also having no flaw makes it less believable or "realistic". Second, you like to talk about culture of Oyashima, but you fail to mention how this affects your marines. The Belief section is prime example of this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/216824-ia-white-tigers/#findComment-2586697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 First go at this, and yes the colour scheme is possibly rubbish. Before you all shout "zomg!! black and white marines!!" at me, I'm still working on that bit but have no idea what to compliment the white parts with and I don't want pure white space marines either. Besides, the white bits would have markings on them anyway its just I haven't decided what they will be or what the chapter badge is yet. Answers on a postcard please happy.gif For the badge: perhaps a tiger head, in either white or black (I'd recommend you go with white, and reverse the shoulderpad color scheme. "You win battles by knowing the enemy's timing, and using a timing which the enemy does not expect." - Rhetoricus, The Book of Five Spheres Are all these actual quotes, or did you make them up? If you did, I'd recommend using someone else. Filling in chunks of official GW history bugs some people, and hurts your ability to mesh with the universe. Not that much, in this case, but some. Ok, that's it for the moment. There is a very clear theme with this IA, but I've tried to avoid being too overt with it. C&C happily taken, just want to know what you guys think and whether this has the beginings of something useful or has been a colossal waste of time rolleyes.gif As others have commented, they mostly seem to be awesome. Which is, as others have also commented, not necessarily a good thing. You're not nearly as over-the-top with it as the Ultramarines are, but the Chapter doesn't seem to have much nuance or character outside of being capable. This is not necessarily bad, it's just probably not what you were hoping for. PS: Do "space marines" and "chapters" require capital letters in each instance of their use? Yes to the first (when referring to the Emperor's Space Marines, that is. The concept of space marines in general does not). The second is more complicated, and I don't remember the rules around proper nouns well enough to tell you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/216824-ia-white-tigers/#findComment-2586800 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecritter Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/ecritter/ist2_9260642-tiger-head-mascot-2-b-w.png http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/ecritter/Tiger20Head.png I suggest one of these two. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/216824-ia-white-tigers/#findComment-2586816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted December 11, 2010 Share Posted December 11, 2010 "You win battles by knowing the enemy's timing, and using a timing which the enemy does not expect." - Rhetoricus, The Book of Five Spheres Are all these actual quotes, or did you make them up? If you did, I'd recommend using someone else. Filling in chunks of official GW history bugs some people, and hurts your ability to mesh with the universe. Not that much, in this case, but some. If I recall correctly, which is not 100% bulletproof because it is a while, these quotes are from The Book of Five Rings of Miyamoto Musashi, who is the RL "model" for Rhetoricus. So "technically" these are actual quotes, althought he has never said them. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/216824-ia-white-tigers/#findComment-2586827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stazbumpa Posted December 11, 2010 Author Share Posted December 11, 2010 - Departmento Munitorum. It's sub-branch of Adeptus Administratum and it's purpose is the general administration, supply and command of the Imperial Guard. Thus, I don't quite understand the need for the battle-reports, since the Astartes and Imperial Guard are two different and independent organisations. I knew that, I bloody knew it! I should know really, my brain got fried writing "Adeptus" all the time, what can I say? Ok, so the Departmento aren't interested in space marine activity, I'll have them write a letter to elsewhere in the galaxy. I was wanting to avoid the whole "the *history/origins/founding/agenda/shoe size* of the chapter is shrouded in mystery", I'm sick to death of reading it. Even GW like to use instead if thinking of something to write. I want a chapter that is very much out there in the thick of it and doesn't hide itself away. The defenders of humanity need to be around humanity to defend it, no? ^_^ Well, of course. They penned these reports by themself. I see your point but has nobody other than the space marines ever written about the space marines? I've read plenty of fluff about space marines from other peoples points of view. Given the nature of enemies the Imperium must face, I doubt there will be place for double-agents at all. Space marines don't just fight aliens, although I do take your point and I should have made this case specific to a particular type of engagement rather than the blanket application I've given it in the IA. Isn't this a hypocrisy, though?The ancient knowledge you are waving around is the same teaching, which is passed on to techmarine-adepts during their training on the Mars. Possibly it is. I think I'm trying to point out that the techmarines are happy to receive the knowledge of the AM but aren't into the religious nature of it. The ancient knowledge of how to fix a knackered bolter works whether you rub yourself with magic oils and chant a lot while using your screwdriver or simply get on with it. I need to reword it methinks. Overall, I have to agree with DAT, you took the same approach as the author of IA: Ultramarines. What you did here, is the description of how awesome your marines are. I did? My aim was an overview of the chapter rather than splurging battle records all over the place. I deliberately avoided overly glowing odes to them and tried to stick to general awesome rather than awesome awesomeness with awesome sauce on top, if you see what I mean. I'll see what can make a difference. This approach is not wrong nor good, but it simply doesn't give your Chapter much of character. Also having no flaw makes it less believable or "realistic". The "flaw" is that they stick around when things go wrong rather than bug out and go somewhere else a bit more useful. I was trying to create a juxtaposition where their strengths of good tactical planning and level headedness can be completely forgotten about. The Fists are noted for their stubborness and their use of the pain glove. I don't like the pain glove, so tried to substitute it for something else that came from the culture of their home world. Sticking your neck out because you are single minded and mildly obsessed with your your own honour sounded like a good idea. Second, you like to talk about culture of Oyashima, but you fail to mention how this affects your marines. The Belief section is prime example of this. Ok, help me out here. Can you give me an example? Appreciate the C&C, I want to make this better than it started out ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/216824-ia-white-tigers/#findComment-2586909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stazbumpa Posted December 11, 2010 Author Share Posted December 11, 2010 I'm sorry, Staz. Why does your chapter have no flaws? It seems like in everything they do, they succeed. While that's fine for GW to write (as its GW) it makes for a cool but ultimately uninteresting character. Cheers for the feedback. I've attempted to answer this in my reply to NightrawenII, I obviously didn't emphasised it enough in the IA itself. The White Tigers are cool. It seems like they have common sense, unlike most of the Imperium. But that doesn't make them interesting. That makes them cool. Close to what you should be aiming for, but not completely on the mark. Fair point. They're supposed to be a little oasis of sense in a sea of insanity. I've read of a few chapters akin to this, happily enough their relatives the Crimson Fists do appear to be of this mould themselves. That said, I didn't want them to be the Reasonable Marines, so they unconsciously go against this common sense when matters of personal honour are in the frame. I also had a minor scruple with the 'only send the best techmarines for further training on Mars'. Either they go or they don't. Besides, it seemed like it was an excuse to make them awesome, especially with the whole 'it cannot be said that the White Tigers Techmarines make for bad students' line. That was ridiculus. I suggest that they simply go to Mars as a normal chapter. Again, I tried to answer this with NightrawenII. I'm pretty much in agreement with you guys on this because now its up on here it doesn't read anywhere near as well as I though it did. I do want to try and include their "feet in the here and now" attitude, this probably wasn't the way to do it though. Thank you again for your input. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/216824-ia-white-tigers/#findComment-2586924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stazbumpa Posted December 11, 2010 Author Share Posted December 11, 2010 For the badge: perhaps a tiger head, in either white or black (I'd recommend you go with white, and reverse the shoulderpad color scheme. All colour scheme ideas are gratefully accepted. I'll try the white with black shoulders and see what it looks like. I was also thinking of a grey of some shade in place of the black as it is in my current scheme. Are all these actual quotes, or did you make them up? If you did, I'd recommend using someone else. Filling in chunks of official GW history bugs some people, and hurts your ability to mesh with the universe. Not that much, in this case, but some. NightrawenII has the win in his previous post, they're all from Miyamoto Musashi. My chapter were originally going to be related to the White Scars but I was flicking through the Lexicanum website and saw an entry for Rhetoricus. Already included in that article are sayings based on Tokugawa Ieyasu and Musashi, and the idea of the book is very obviously pinched from Musashi's "Gorin no Sho", so I simply extrapolated on this. That's how they came to be descended from the Imperial Fists. As others have commented, they mostly seem to be awesome. Which is, as others have also commented, not necessarily a good thing. You're not nearly as over-the-top with it as the Ultramarines are, but the Chapter doesn't seem to have much nuance or character outside of being capable. This is not necessarily bad, it's just probably not what you were hoping for. At least I was successful in that :P So do I need to make them seriously flawed or do I need to make a better job of describing their fixation with honour and how it can get them into tight spots? Yes to the first (when referring to the Emperor's Space Marines, that is. The concept of space marines in general does not). The second is more complicated, and I don't remember the rules around proper nouns well enough to tell you. Ok, so Blood Angel Space Marines are grammatically different to space marines in general, have I got that right? It's always confused me, writing about these guys always seems to involve a lot of capital letters. Thank you for your time, your guide was most useful and what little success I've had with this IA so far (I posted it in the right section for starters B)) has been due to reading what both you and Ferrata have got to say. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/216824-ia-white-tigers/#findComment-2586935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted December 12, 2010 Share Posted December 12, 2010 I'd say de-emphasizing their awesomeness/superiority a little would be good (right now there's a lot of explicit statements that they're better than everyone else). The bit about their technology springs to mind as the most egregious example, actually - apparently the superstitious Space Marines who rule a feudal world somehow have an in-house training program superior to that of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Among other things, that raises the question of where they learned in the first place. Adding some of that focus on honor would be good as well. Be careful, though - themes work best when they're a little gentle, and so making a samurai Chapter requires a little caution. You don't want to be too Japanese, or it'll just be blah and unsubtle. I'd recommend diversifying the quotes a little, as well - quotes are a wonderful opportunity to give us quick and easy insight into the Chapter using another writing style. Taking advantage of that a little more wouldn't hurt. ;) Space Marines (as in the supermen created by the Emperor) are always capitalized because that's their species (and because it's a trademark :cuss). It's like Eldar or Tau. Space marines, as in GW's, Heinlein's and Starcraft's are not. Ignore the fact that we don't capitalize human. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/216824-ia-white-tigers/#findComment-2587195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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