Non-Terminator Hammer unit of doom

[spartan249]

Since I have dedicated myself to playing Iron Hands to the fluff, I've been stepping away from heavy terminator usage in my lists (5 or more terminators in any list). Having lost the terminators, I'm at a loss at how to fill those points and role.

 

Since my terminators leave about 240 points open, I'm thinking I'm going to replace that unit with a unit that I've been overlooking for a while: the Command Squad. However, I'm thinking that close combat is not how I want to apply this unit, as I'm sick of being out of charging range and getting circus acted around the board sometimes. Thus, I'm starting testing on the following unit:

 

Khan: 160 pts

Command Squad: 5 marines, 4 Plasma Guns & Storm Shields - 235 pts

Librarian: TDA w/ SS, NZ & VoD, Epistolary - 190 pts

 

I basically want to make whatever I shoot up suffer. No armor saves on any wounds, all successful invul saves rerolled, and psychic defense, followed by assault terminator level survivability both in the shooting phase and the assault phase. Not as hard hitting in close combat, but that's where Khan comes in. Hit & Run ensures that I get out of combat on my terms, on my opponent's turn, which frees me up for another round of rapid fire/shooting.

 

It's expensive, but in all honesty, so are assault terminators. In fact, I'm predicting that these guys will be more effective than assault terminators with TH/SSs. About the same survivability (slight edge to TH/SS terminators with armor saves, but only about 0.8%), but inflicts the most damage in the shooting phase, needing 3s to hit with all the shots and wounding most infantry on 2s instead of the TH/SS's 4's to hit most of the time.

 

Without testing, I won't be able to tell for sure exactly how well it will do, but any preliminary data from other command squad users on practical performance would help.

[Validar]

a decent plan, but the major problem is that it is too easy to get cover saves these days. Most of the time you'll just be reducing 3+ power armor to 4+ cover save

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I would drop the stormshields, personally. You're already getting FNP from the Apothecary and the shields add an awful lot of to their points cost. I think that skilfull use of Combat Tactics would actually be a better bet than Hit and Run, since the latter applies to one squad and the former applies to the entire army. If you want to stick a melee Captain in with them to provide some punch if they charged, I think a Relic Blade-armed captain would be a better bet. Maybe give him a combi-plasma to add to the I-shoot-you-die-ness of the squad.

[LardO'Blood]

MEH. Try devastators with all plasma cannons, it does more or less the same job from a longer range.

It's nice but I hate losing models worth over 50 points to plasma.

[Warp Angel]

I thought Iron Hands had plenty of suits of terminator armor running around due to their relationship with the Mechanicum and predisposition to use technology?

 

In previous editions, the rules for Iron Hands had their sergeants able to wear terminator armor in much the same way the Wolf codex allows for Wolf Guard to do so.

[spartan249]

They did have a lot of terminator armor... pre-heresy. After the Istvaan incident, the Iron Hands were left with very few dreadnoughts and suits of TDA due to the overzealous commitment of Ferrus to the battle. This is the main reason why they had terminator sergeants: They didn't have enough terminators to field very large coherent squads of terminators, and thus were distributed to inspire the rank and file marines with the impressive sight of TDA. Later on, I'm sure the Iron Hands have restocked their stores a bit, but I'm running them the way they would be almost immediately post-heresy. Seems to be the popular trend around where I live, and I find the limitation on TDA to be a refreshing challenge.

 

Devastators with plasma cannons are immobile. They're also too large for the purpose. What I'm doing with this unit is sticking them in my customary land raider, popping them out at an opportune time to obliterate a target. Kind of like how I apply Assault Terminators. And they have been doing their job very well in the last few playtests. Besides, I've been using all plasma dev squads since 4th ed, and they simply suck due to the fact that they have almost no way of getting around cover saves or getting more than 2 hits on a blast unless your opponent is tactically unaware.

 

This unit has been playing out very well. Against deep-striking enemies, this unit has been working wonders, causing unbelievable amounts of damage with the Vortex of Doom, then mopping up the survivors with plasma shots and rerolled successful invuls. The few times they got into combat, they weathered the storm admirably, then hit and ran right out to VoD/Rapid fire again. Those Storm Shields are invaluable, as the things that kill this unit without SSs are the power weapons and other such weapons.

 

In the Marine vs Marine match-up, this unit is terrifyingly efficient. Squads of deep striking terminators were wiped off the board with almost no effort, and the durability of the unit was on par with the excellent survivability of Assault Terminators. Deep Strikers beware! The mass plasma really took away all the advantages marines pay for in terms of armor and toughness, ending up with small squads of easily destroyed marines being wiped off the board as they came in. Only real problem I see here is TH/SS terminators, who require my entire army's firepower to kill off. Major problem. Other than that, works very well.

 

In the Marine vs Tyranid match-up, the deep striking trygons and raveners were unable to deal any damage to my armored formation, then promptly fell to the barrage of VoD/Plasma/Missiles. This unit was even able to deal with a Hive Tyrant with three hive guard escorts with a single barrage, although that was slightly better rolling than expected. Having that FNP ignoring AP2 and S7 on all the shots really helps in blasting down the bigger bugs. Gaunts presented a slight problem to the command squad, but only if they charged. With the charge, they were easily able to match the gaunts. The only real horrifying threat I had to face with them was the Genestealers. While the invul saves helped a lot, there's just so many saves that they get overwhelmed. Which is the story for assault terminators as well, so no suprise there. I just have to make sure I shoot the Genies before they assault me, which is very difficult to do if the terrain and the dice are against me.

 

In a Marine vs IG match-up, this unit did the exact opposite. They outflanked with Khan, hitting up various heavy weapons squads and tanks in close combat, then utilizing HnR to hit different targets along the line. These guys were nearly immortal in combat against guardsmen, being wounded very rarely and always having a 3+ save no matter what hit me. Yes, some power fists were present, and I did lose a few marines, but they always came out on top. Backed up by two tactical squads doing further disrupting, they were durable enough to be able to wade through the bodies.

 

Overall, what I find I'm disliking about this unit is the inability to charge into CC after shooting, which could help finish the deal after a particularily bad roll for the plasma guns. While this hasn't been an issue in today's 5 playtests, I can imagine that this problem can crop up. Other than that, I'm liking how this unit is performing so far.

[greatcrusade08]

if your using Khan you want to make best use of his furious charge, shooting isnt the best combo IMO..

 

a couple of PWs and a couple of storm shileds would be good

[spartan249]

I actually included Khan in my list initially because he gave all my guys outflank, which helped me take on Tau and IG when those match-ups came up. Besides, I'm quite tired of requiring close combat to deal my shock damage. Terminators are always striking last, and they always find a way to die before dealing any damage. I'd rather not give the target any chance to retaliate.

[greatcrusade08]

thas the disadvantage to hammernators..everyone thinks they are the mutts nuts, when tbh they are easily countered.

khan and a decent cc unit hit at I5 on the charge.. they strike before most armies and Khan hits on I6 which is better than most HQs.

 

khan and cc lightnening claw termies work really well and can take a dedicated land raider and outflank it :D

[Mysticaria]

thas the disadvantage to hammernators..everyone thinks they are the mutts nuts, when tbh they are easily countered.

Heresy! Dissent! It's best to keep such thoughts to yourself. :P

 

-Myst

[LardO'Blood]

I actually included Khan in my list initially because he gave all my guys outflank, which helped me take on Tau and IG when those match-ups came up. Besides, I'm quite tired of requiring close combat to deal my shock damage. Terminators are always striking last, and they always find a way to die before dealing any damage. I'd rather not give the target any chance to retaliate.

*cough* howling banshees *cough*

If it works for you, fine. Maybe test using a redeemer? It matches rapid fire/assault range better then a godhammer and will put the hurt on gaunts or stealers.

[greatcrusade08]

brother tual used to play in OZ turneys using a redeemer with khan and GKT.. claw termies or vanguard/command sqaud would be a good equivalent

[Captain Idaho]

I'm all for using a unit in a slightly different way, but I really don't like Khan being there. I get he grants massed Outflank, but a Captain with Plasma pistol is surely better suited? Sicarius could do something similar with a single Tactical squad in a Rhino if you wanted a comprimise?

 

Given the cost of the unit, would it be worth cutting points by only taking 2 or 3 Storm Shields? Just a thought really, as I get your principle with the unit and am glad to hear you had great success with the unit.

[spartan249]

I thought about cutting some storm shields from the unit. While they weren't really needed in the majority of my playtests so far, there was the one match-up against Chaos where the Storm Shields saved my entire unit from obliteration. Without them, Khan and my Epistolary would have been the only ones left alive from the vindicator shell that hit me after a successful lash. Instead, my entire command squad survived and annihilated the lash prince on my turn.

 

It is 60 points extra for the unit, but I think it's warranted given the amount of weapons out there that simply ignore my armor. Maybe I'll change my mind after lots of playtests, who knows?

 

I thought about using a normal captain with arty armor and plasma pistol, but given the chances of facing a shooty army and getting outgunned easily, I want the option to outflank and get up in their grill quickly and assault their weaknesses without having to change my list at all. All-comers, in a word.

[spartan249]

Here's the full list. Looks rather tiny, now that I look at it...

 

2000 pts "Garrsakian Strike Force"

HQ

Captain Akios (Khan): 160 pts

Command Squad: 4 Pguns & Sshields - 235 pts

Librarian: NZ & VoD, TDA w/ SS, Epistolary - 190 pts

Troops

Tac Squad Red: 10 marines, Mgun, Mlauncher, Pfist - 200 pts

Tac Squad Green: 10 marines, Mgun, Mlauncher, Pfist - 200 pts

Elites

Ven Dread: TLLC, HF - 205 pts

Ven Dread: TLLC, HF - 205 pts

Heavy Support

Land Raider: Mmelta - 260 pts

Thunderfire Cannon: 100 pts

Fast Attack

Land Speeder: 2x TML, Mmelta - 200 pts

[Bartali]

+1 to all those suggesting cc is the way to go. You're not always going to get Plasma shots on units without cover.

 

There's always the option to put Khan on Moondrakken, put the command squad and Libby on bikes and bin the raider. Not sure how that fits with your fluff though...

[Kay]

thas the disadvantage to hammernators..everyone thinks they are the mutts nuts, when tbh they are easily countered.

Heresy! Dissent! It's best to keep such thoughts to yourself. :tu:

 

-Myst

 

Doubt is the first step in the road to disappointment.

[BassWave]

-1 to all those in favor of making the command squad cc oriented. Command squads aren't the best rock assault unit, Honor guard and vanguard do assaulting better than they do. Besides, I think its super fluffy having a tech'd up elite squad of Iron Hands that feel no pain go marching out of their landraider to mow down the enemy with plasma weaponry, not to mention that it has proven effective for you so far :)

[spartan249]

Further testing on this unit has revealed that it is best used before the threat reaches the squishier parts of the line. Once the threat has engaged, the command squad has a hard time dealing damage. Thus, I'm trying to solve this problem by making my units small and easy to kill in assault, thus having those deathstars sitting out in the open when done slaughtering whatever small unit they charged.

[LardO'Blood]

Further testing on this unit has revealed that it is best used before the threat reaches the squishier parts of the line. Once the threat has engaged, the command squad has a hard time dealing damage. Thus, I'm trying to solve this problem by making my units small and easy to kill in assault, thus having those deathstars sitting out in the open when done slaughtering whatever small unit they charged.

Little tip:

Drop Khan and give the librarian GoI. You can still get out of combat and you retain combat tactics so you can fail morale checks with your other squads, leaving the deathstars standing around looking at their thumbs.

[Bartali]

-1 to all those in favor of making the command squad cc oriented. Command squads aren't the best rock assault unit

 

Put a command squad on bikes and they're one of the best (elite) assault units in the game