confused about blood champion

[Brother Yorei]

can ther blood champion have 2 power weapons and a hand flamer/melta, pistol, etc.? or only 1 power weapon?

[ancient god]

As far as I know, you make him a Blood Champion and that's it, no more upgrades other than the shield and sword.

[Kinzel]

He gets the gear he comes with hey. Which if I remember correctly is a power weapon, bolt pistol and combat shield. No other upgrades.

[JamesI]

The Blood Champion does not replace his other gear (oddly) so he has bolt pistol or bolter, chainsword, power weapon, shield.

 

But his type changes from Honor Guard to Blood Champion so he can not purchase other gear (except a jump pack)

[Judaz]

And why would you give him 2 power weapons? The PW+bolt pistol gives him an extra attack anyway. IF he has the pistol. The codex is a bit fuzzy there. Does the champion get to keep all the wargear, or does he exchange everything for only a PW and shield? But in that case he wouldn't get to keep his power armour either :cuss The Blood Champion running around in his underwear with a power weapon and a shield. Thats what I call a sacrifice!

 

But it would be awesome if someone made a model with pistol, chainsword, PW and shield. Or that champ in his underwear...

[Xenith]

IIRC, you can choose the order in which you apply upgrades - Didnt GW rule that a shoota boy nob could take a power klaw in this manner?

 

In that case, upgrade the wargear, then upgrade him to champion.

[Quixus]

The Blood Champion running around in his underwear with a power weapon and a shield. Thats what I call a sacrifice!

At least it is underwear that grants a 3+ Armor Save. Its in his profile.

[Kinzel]

IIRC, you can choose the order in which you apply upgrades - Didnt GW rule that a shoota boy nob could take a power klaw in this manner?

 

In that case, upgrade the wargear, then upgrade him to champion.

But didn't this get indirectly FAQ'd with regards to the Furioso Librarian? If he's upgraded to Librarian he can have *no* other wargear (extra armour et al) so I would imagine this would apply to to the Blood Champion too.

[JamesI]

IIRC, you can choose the order in which you apply upgrades - Didnt GW rule that a shoota boy nob could take a power klaw in this manner?

 

In that case, upgrade the wargear, then upgrade him to champion.

In various ruling they have contradicted this as well. Without a firm ruling allowing it (like the Ork Nob got) its at best questionable.

 

Personally, I dislike the idea of order of upgrades mattering. If its illegal to upgrade to champion then get a storm shield, it should be just as illegal to get the stormshield then upgrade to champion. (of course, I may be biased as a player once tried to pull that against me in a game, his champion had a storm shield that he didn't pay for, just considered it a fair swap for his combat shield, and he still carried the bolt pistol and wanted the +1 attack)

[Judaz]

Anything that need constructive thinking usually isn't allowed. To take upgrades in a specific order to be able to take 'em all is a good example of this.

 

BUT we really need GW to make a clear ruling in this and say it's one way or another.

 

And James, that guy really tried to swap a 5pts combat shield for a 20pts storm shield? Thats hilarious! I'm thinking about swapping the chainsword and the bolt pistol for 2 storm shields, that way I can get two separate 3++ rolls right? :tu:

[Xenith]

IIRC, you can choose the order in which you apply upgrades - Didnt GW rule that a shoota boy nob could take a power klaw in this manner?

 

In that case, upgrade the wargear, then upgrade him to champion.

But didn't this get indirectly FAQ'd with regards to the Furioso Librarian? If he's upgraded to Librarian he can have *no* other wargear (extra armour et al) so I would imagine this would apply to to the Blood Champion too.

 

The furioso libby notion supports my arguement entirely.

 

The furioso entry explictly states: "upgrade to furioso librarian exchanging all wargear for..." italicised for emphasis.

 

While the BC entry reads: "One Honour guard can be upgraded to a blood champon with power weapon and combat shield..."

 

If it says exchange/replace, then you exchange/replace. If it doesnt, you dont. Simple.

 

In various ruling they have contradicted this as well. Without a firm ruling allowing it (like the Ork Nob got) its at best questionable.

 

There is a firm ruling. Its the codex. If you can do it, then you can do it, if you cannot do it by normal reading of the codex, then you cannot.

 

I may be biased as a player once tried to pull that against me in a game, his champion had a storm shield that he didn't pay for, just considered it a fair swap for his combat shield, and he still carried the bolt pistol and wanted the +1 attack)

 

Thats poor showing on that players behalf, and they were cheating and I hope you told them as much. Regardless, saying that a champ isnt allowed a storm shield (if paid for) because some kid tried to cheat you isnt logical.

[Plague Angel]

I think there's a case to be made for order of operations. The Ork example sets precedent, and though we can't always count on GW being consistent, you can bring it up with your opponent ahead of time. However, always be prepared for your opponent to say no. If you're not sticklers about WYSIWYG, then you'll be fine; if you do try to keep WYSIWYG, modeling a bolt-pistol will probably be safest.

[JamesI]

The Ork FAQ is irrelevant. Can't use a ruling from one in a differnet codex (as everyone keeps reminding me).

 

So, Blood Champion is not type Honor Guard. He can't take upgrades. I see nothing that allows him to take upgrades then switch to champion

 

writing rules that requires upgrades in a particular order to be legal is more complicated than the system GW is trying for now

[Sanguinarian]

Why is it so hard to override GW's intent and fix it amongst ourselves? Would it be so OP to just say that the "Honour Guard" title was hastily omittedfrom the Blood Champion entry and the Sanguinary Novitiate entry? Wouldn't that just make sense? Honour Guard are at least Veteran Sergeants on the fast track to Captaincy. They are not just Blood Angels. The Novitiate is at least a Sanguinary Priest on track to be a Sanguinary High Priest.

 

Since GW has fallen asleep at the wheel, why can't the entire SM community fix it to where it at least makes sense? Why spend all this time debating back and forth? Let the community vote on its intent and declare it rewritten by the "collective". After all, we're the ones paying and playing it everyday. GW obviously can't dot every "i" and cross every "t" so we the People have to act as the governing body. Otherwise we're just 50,000+ Space Marines without a voice.

[shatter]

Are you suggesting impeaching GW?

 

That's pretty serious...

 

Well, all those in fav....

 

*CRUMP*

 

*dust settles on impact crater*

[JamesI]

Why is it so hard to override GW's intent and fix it amongst ourselves? Would it be so OP to just say that the "Honour Guard" title was hastily omittedfrom the Blood Champion entry and the Sanguinary Novitiate entry? Wouldn't that just make sense? Honour Guard are at least Veteran Sergeants on the fast track to Captaincy. They are not just Blood Angels. The Novitiate is at least a Sanguinary Priest on track to be a Sanguinary High Priest.

 

Since GW has fallen asleep at the wheel, why can't the entire SM community fix it to where it at least makes sense? Why spend all this time debating back and forth? Let the community vote on its intent and declare it rewritten by the "collective". After all, we're the ones paying and playing it everyday. GW obviously can't dot every "i" and cross every "t" so we the People have to act as the governing body. Otherwise we're just 50,000+ Space Marines without a voice.

If we could get a universal group to do that, great. But we need to give the same fix to Codex Space Marines too. And there is no way we could ever get it universally accepted.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

GW has really gone out of their way to impress on gamers that the rules are "JUST A FRAMEWORK", from which we can create a fun game. I realize nobody takes that seriously, and further that it requires a level of maturity that most gamers don't seem to posses... however it is encouraged to do as you will with the rules in the name of fun. If you are manipulating the rules just for the sake of getting a cheap win - well then you are not mature enough to make your own alterations and you should just stick with the dang manual, which is a pretty good general framework regardless. Otherwise go to town... it really IS just a game regardless of how much money you spend and/or how much time you've spent painting.

 

Is it really a big deal that the Champ can't take another weapon? ...certainly not, but if you really want him too then just go ahead, override GW's intent... they want you to.

[SamaNagol]

Well Sanguinary Noviates certainly are not veterans. Hence the name.

 

And Blood Champions have very specific equipment which is as much a badge of office as it is wargear.

[Wildfire]

GW has really gone out of their way to impress on gamers that the rules are "JUST A FRAMEWORK", from which we can create a fun game.

 

That's a load of poo. GW says that to cover for the fact that they don't take much interest in generating a tight ruleset. Any game as widespread and tourney driven as 40k (both of which GW pushes) needs a standard ruleset. Encouraging homemade alterations runs directly counter to their buisness plan.

 

I've played lots of games with far more complex rules that have fewer loopholes and better balancing than GW. They're just lazy.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

GW has really gone out of their way to impress on gamers that the rules are "JUST A FRAMEWORK", from which we can create a fun game.

 

That's a load of poo. GW says that to cover for the fact that they don't take much interest in generating a tight ruleset. Any game as widespread and tourney driven as 40k (both of which GW pushes) needs a standard ruleset. Encouraging homemade alterations runs directly counter to their buisness plan.

 

I've played lots of games with far more complex rules that have fewer loopholes and better balancing than GW. They're just lazy.

 

Hah ...sorry bro but you are wrong. Having played every edition of this game I can say that A.) this is by FAR the tightest the rules have ever been and B.) In this edition GW made a strong push away from the super competitive 'tourney driven' game, likely because of what happened with the 3rd edition. If folks choose to ignore all of the cool and fun stuff, in favor of the same beardy spam units, simply to win tournaments, well that is on them. I'm happy to have the options even if they aren't the most 'tournament efficient'.

 

When the 3rd edition got too 'competitive' people stopped having fun and it was an obnoxious "seal clubbing festival"... people 'not having fun' runs directly counter to any gaming companies business plan. Americans don't seem to care about fun as much as winning in general, but 'fun' seems to be their prime directive.

 

See the designers notes, read them for yourself:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/...jsp?aId=5000004

 

And please I'd love to hear which of these 'lots of games' are far more complex, with fewer loopholes and better balance. I'm not aware of a single wargame with even half the playable units and/or individual army codex, ...let alone the miniature range.

[Justin2008]

I just follow the order of the upgrades as i go down the list, but obviously look out for lists that say "a sergeant may take/replaces" as this guy is more special then the standard other guys.

 

Also the blood champion has a power weapon and combat shield, he also keeps his bolt pistol (its even on the model - well the one i have anyway).

 

:lol:

[Morticon]

Regards order of upgrades, remember we got ruled against in our own FAQ with regards the Libby dread!

[Judaz]

Regards order of upgrades, remember we got ruled against in our own FAQ with regards the Libby dread!

 

What he said. Sadly enough.

[Xenith]

Regards order of upgrades, remember we got ruled against in our own FAQ with regards the Libby dread!

 

What he said. Sadly enough.

 

Again, the libby dread says exchange all wargear with, champion upgrade adds the pw+cs to what the hg model already has.

[the jeske]

since when does upgrade to something does not mean replace in a unit ?