Devastators as troops

[puck]

So last night I had a flash of inspiration. What if in the next edition of our dex we have access to a HQ choice that makes devastators troop choices. I don't think this would be over powered as there are already HQ choices making just about every other unit a troop choice and you could mess with point costs, however I think this would go a long way towards solving the problem I seem to see a lot of "Our chapter was the I legion where's are our crazy techno-magic stuff and our unique flavor". In 40k fluff heavy weapons like lascannons, plasma cannons, etc are considered somewhat rare chapter artifacts of high quasi-forgotten technology. Fluff-wise I think it would fit very well for us to be able to field more heavy weapon squads because we have more gear. Also it fits with the 'we never retreat" theme: slow advance and merciless firepower.

 

Thoughts??

[Isiah]

Given that one of the themes being bandied around in the B&Cs developmental new DA Codex will be "flexible firepower" – I could see a Master of the Forge HQ choice unlocking such an option.

 

So not so far-fetched maybe :D .

 

Cheers

I

[Ozybonza]

I think that's a little extreme, but allow me to put forth some alternatives:

 

Make them scoring (like Pedro + Sternguard)

 

Make Plasma guns/pistols/cannons not get hot for DA

 

Allow tactical squads to take a second heavy weapon instead of a special weapon

[LardO'Blood]

This (or very similar ideas) has been discussed significantly in Project: Unforgiven.

[puck]

I think that's a little extreme, but allow me to put forth some alternatives:

 

Make them scoring (like Pedro + Sternguard)

 

Make Plasma guns/pistols/cannons not get hot for DA

 

Allow tactical squads to take a second heavy weapon instead of a special weapon

 

After more thought on the subject, I can see where you're coming from. Allowing more heavy weapon choices to existing troop choices would be an alternate route. We could also allow our Sargents to have access to wargear typically reserved for HQ choices like digital weapons and some of the other lesser used options. Or put two cyclone missile launchers or auto cannons in deathwing squads (of a certain size of course)

[shabbadoo]

The "We are the FIRST Legion so we gotz stuff!" thing again, eh? The Dark Angels are first on a list and nothing more. The Founding Legions were created at the same time, and the Dark Angels weren't in existence for a while stashing away in their vaults anything and everything they could get their hands on before #2 on the Legion list came along. If you want to know which Legion would have the pick of the oldest tech, it would be the one whose Primarch was found first. The world of that Primarch would of course be the first to have warriors from the Primarch's home world added to their Legion as new Space Marines, and equipment for them would then need to be requisitioned for them first.

 

As some may know, the Primarch that was found first was not the Lion, but Horus, so I guess it is really the Black Legion that should have all of the ancient tech; especially considering that Horus, being The Warmaster, could have requisitioned pretty much whatever the heck he wanted to for his Legion.

[Frater Uriah]

The "We are the FIRST Legion so we gotz stuff!" thing again, eh? The Dark Angels are first on a list and nothing more. The Founding Legions were created at the same time, and the Dark Angels weren't in existence for a while stashing away in their vaults anything and everything they could get their hands on before #2 on the Legion list came along. If you want to know which Legion would have the pick of the oldest tech, it would be the one whose Primarch was found first. The world of that Primarch would of course be the first to have warriors from the Primarch's home world added to their Legion as new Space Marines, and equipment for them would then need to be requisitioned for them first.

 

As some may know, the Primarch that was found first was not the Lion, but Horus, so I guess it is really the Black Legion that should have all of the ancient tech; especially considering that Horus, being The Warmaster, could have requisitioned pretty much whatever the heck he wanted to for his Legion.

The idea of the Dark Angels having the most archaeotech is not so far-fetched, considering that they were the Legion commanded by the Emperor Himself before rediscovering the Lion on Caliban. No other Legion had so many Terminator suits, and it stands to reason that, as the First Legion, as they were known before the Lion renamed them, they would have been supplied with the best equipment available. Horus may have been first-found, but the Dark Angels were First Legion.

 

Cagey as he was, I also have no doubt that the Lion cashed in on his Legion's status as First to continue to procure the best-end equipment available to prosecute the Crusade.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

That's not quite correct shabadoo. Horus was found first, but the Dark Angels Legion was the one first made, so they were the ones taking the brunt of the fighting right until Horus was found. That means fightingin Terra itself and all the way to Chtonia.

So yes DA legion was very well equipped!

 

As for OP idea, I'm sorry, but no. Devastatorss as troops does not sound dark Angels to me, nor does it sound tactically sound. If it was that awesome to have devastators doing the fighting every Chapter/Legion would do it.. I bet they could supply a heavy bolter to every battle brother in the chapter , but they chose not to... In game terms you would also be impaired the moment the mission forced you to move your troops to capture an objective...

 

my 2 cents.

[Brother Landrain]

That's not quite correct shabadoo. Horus was found first, but the Dark Angels Legion was the one first made, so they were the ones taking the brunt of the fighting right until Horus was found. That means fightingin Terra itself and all the way to Chtonia.

So yes DA legion was very well equipped!

 

As for OP idea, I'm sorry, but no. Devastatorss as troops does not sound dark Angels to me, nor does it sound tactically sound. If it was that awesome to have devastators doing the fighting every Chapter/Legion would do it.. I bet they could supply a heavy bolter to every battle brother in the chapter , but they chose not to... In game terms you would also be impaired the moment the mission forced you to move your troops to capture an objective...

 

my 2 cents.

 

Since DA are traditionally very shooty and very tactically skilled.

 

I can see Devastators being unlocked as troops for DA, giving them Slow and Purposefull.

 

Also, something I think DA should be able to do is, combat squad/regroup in game during a movement phase, as well as Mob up from different squads.

[Lord_Hail]

Brother Bob... renounded for bla, bla, bla. Upgrade for a devestator squad giving them the slow and purposeful unfversal rule and each brother able to carry a hevey weapon, and squad to be scoring... Sounds like GW to me..

[Brother_Darius]

The idea of the Dark Angels having the most archaeotech is not so far-fetched, considering that they were the Legion commanded by the Emperor Himself before rediscovering the Lion on Caliban.

 

This was brought up during the Unforgiven project but to my knowledge nobody was ever able to come up with any written fluff support to indicate that they were the Legion actually commanded by the Emperor or that they acted as his personal guard.

[Frater Uriah]

The idea of the Dark Angels having the most archaeotech is not so far-fetched, considering that they were the Legion commanded by the Emperor Himself before rediscovering the Lion on Caliban.

 

This was brought up during the Unforgiven project but to my knowledge nobody was ever able to come up with any written fluff support to indicate that they were the Legion actually commanded by the Emperor or that they acted as his personal guard.

You have to go back a way, but it's there: Let me dig out my old Rogue Trader stuff, and some other goodies I've acquired over the years.

 

Would you like me to post it here or at the Unforgiven Project, when I find it? I'll provide detailed citations.

[Hemal]

The 1st Legion WERE led by the Emperor, again I can't cite it but I have read it and in a GW source doc, just have too many in my mind, whetehr it was a WD or another article. We know that heavy weapons have suspensors to make them man portable and suspensors have been used by Deathwatch to make their HB move and shoot... Its not a massive leap. However, as stated, this is now fully in force in terms of discussion in the appropriate rules dev threads, so probably better to read what has been written and comment/add based on that.

[heretic??ME??]

From Codex angels of death to current has this ever popped up before?? Come on guys they have the deathwing and ravenwing now what? The PENGUINWING.!!

[Isiah]

From Codex angels of death to current has this ever popped up before?? Come on guys they have the deathwing and ravenwing now what? The PENGUINWING.!!

 

 

:D :)

[Frater Uriah]

From Codex angels of death to current has this ever popped up before?? Come on guys they have the deathwing and ravenwing now what? The PENGUINWING.!!

Well, we've not had that specific force, in its distinctive black and white scout armour, for a long time... popularly, they were referred to as 'The Penguing.' Sadly, they were all listed as destroyed by a combined force of Chaos Renegades consisting of the Lion Seals and the Void Orcas.

[Brother_Darius]

The idea of the Dark Angels having the most archaeotech is not so far-fetched, considering that they were the Legion commanded by the Emperor Himself before rediscovering the Lion on Caliban.

 

This was brought up during the Unforgiven project but to my knowledge nobody was ever able to come up with any written fluff support to indicate that they were the Legion actually commanded by the Emperor or that they acted as his personal guard.

You have to go back a way, but it's there: Let me dig out my old Rogue Trader stuff, and some other goodies I've acquired over the years.

 

Would you like me to post it here or at the Unforgiven Project, when I find it? I'll provide detailed citations.

 

Both please if you could

[Korloth Darkwolf]

If you were looking at firepower flexibility could you not change the weapon allocation for tacticals instead of making devastators troops?

 

For example instead of 1 heavy and 1 special for a 10 man squad making it to 2 heavy or special weapons, giving the options for taking a range of weapon combinations but not making the tacticals overtly "devastator".

[breng77]

I think this would be a little crazy Unless the HQ allows them to be troops and only troops, or is prohibitively expensive You could field and HQ, and 9 Devastator Squads w/ 4 ML, and 9 Las Plas Razorbacks, at 2K points (assuming points are equal to Blood angels Devastators.) Move over Spacewolves here come the new kings of ML spam. 36 missiles, 9 lascannons, and 9 TL Plasmaguns :D.

[Brother_Darius]

If you were looking at firepower flexibility could you not change the weapon allocation for tacticals instead of making devastators troops?

 

For example instead of 1 heavy and 1 special for a 10 man squad making it to 2 heavy or special weapons, giving the options for taking a range of weapon combinations but not making the tacticals overtly "devastator".

 

That is actually one rule that is under consideration in Project Unforgiven

[Korloth Darkwolf]

If you were looking at firepower flexibility could you not change the weapon allocation for tacticals instead of making devastators troops?

 

For example instead of 1 heavy and 1 special for a 10 man squad making it to 2 heavy or special weapons, giving the options for taking a range of weapon combinations but not making the tacticals overtly "devastator".

 

That is actually one rule that is under consideration in Project Unforgiven

 

That'll teach me for replying to a post without first doing my homework! :mellow:

 

I might have to have a good read through that soon.

[Bartali]

If you were looking at firepower flexibility could you not change the weapon allocation for tacticals instead of making devastators troops?

 

For example instead of 1 heavy and 1 special for a 10 man squad making it to 2 heavy or special weapons, giving the options for taking a range of weapon combinations but not making the tacticals overtly "devastator".

 

I'd very much imagine GW going down this route for our tacticals if/when we get a new codex. Combat Tactics as well please GW !

[shabbadoo]

That's not quite correct shabadoo. Horus was found first, but the Dark Angels Legion was the one first made, so they were the ones taking the brunt of the fighting right until Horus was found. That means fighting in Terra itself and all the way to Chtonia. So yes DA legion was very well equipped!

 

The Emperor didn't have to wait until the Primarchs were found to make the Legions in their image- The Emperor already had the Legions and handed them over to the Primarchs as they were found. Until that happened with each Legion, the Legions were all fighting in The Great Crusade. Much like the Primarchs, the core of the founding Legions were all made at the same time too. Facility 1 didn't produce an army that was any better equipped than the armies produced in facilities 2-20, as you kinda want all of your armies to perform equivalently, regardless of where in the universe they are sent to. All of the wargear at that point was good, and everyone had it. It was only after the Primarchs(who had developed their own fighting styles, which were heavily influenced by their formative years on their home worlds) were found that the various Legions began to undergo changes to their battle doctrines, and variant equipment reflecting that was requisitioned on a large scale. Thus we see Dark Angels take on more Terminator suits(the Luna Wolves as well) and bikes/land speeders(White Scars too). Other than for that, the Dark Angels are not known for having more of other wargear, ancient or otherwise, than any other Chapter does, and at least two other Chapters(Salamanders, Iron Hands) are better known for being more capable crafters/refurbishers of old tech(not to mention a greater variety of it) than are the Dark Angels. At this point, everything that is special is rare, and no chapter needs to have it written into their rules that they can have much more of it than anybody else.

 

Anyways, as to heavy weapons, they are not that rare at all for anyone. Every Chapter has such weapons, but not to the same extent as they do bolters and such, so they will not equip whole battle groups with tons of heavy weapons. Beyond that, equipping Space Marines as they are goes to *tactics*. Space Marines don't just sit back in their recliners sipping from their beer can hats and pulling the triggers on their heavy weapons. They advance upon the enemy, take objectives and hold them or move onwards. Why do they need to be able to do this? Because enemies will seldom line up and let you play shooting gallery with them. As such, heavy weapons are not the best traveling companion for a Space Marine looking to do something other than hold a static fire point, and so Space Marines are not loaded up with heavy weapons.

 

Invariably, it never fails that Slow and Purposeful or Relentless will be mentioned too, as if adding in a metric crap-ton of heavy weapons to an army is not good enough to begin with. Really? Gotta have your cake and eat it too? Last I checked, Dark Angels didn't need this big of a crutch. I know the point here is to achieve more differentiation from vanilla Chapters, but more heavy weapons(in addition to the other things that there are) is not the way to go.

[Viray]

What about that short little snippet in the 3rd edition Codex that basically stated that the reason the Dark Angels had access to a Plasma Cannon in their Tactical Squads was due to the fact that they are an old and venerable Chapter?

[EPK]

What about that short little snippet in the 3rd edition Codex that basically stated that the reason the Dark Angels had access to a Plasma Cannon in their Tactical Squads was due to the fact that they are an old and venerable Chapter?

 

Good point, but from my perspective, that reference could be equally applied to any of the first founding legions and perhaps even the second founding chapters that followed them.

 

EDIT: Just realized you were probably saying that in reference to the post above you saing heavy weapons are not rare. I'd venture to guess that some are probably more rare than others.